[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Mat]

I have also played around with HJ's list on Magic Online, here are some of my conclusions:

#theweeklywars #11 — Team America

I also realise there's a seperate thread for Delverless lists, but I think the benefits of this list is worth discussing here as well: Team America by pow22, top four in the May Legacy Challenge on Magic Online.

I keep saying this to people, this deck feels really wrong, It has Bayou and Daze, TNN, Tourach and Decay. and on the top of that Delver just doesn't look at its best here. The deck feels pretty much like a worst Shardless/Grixis. That said, I've been playing the Stifle Version of the deck, and it's impressing me, the deck is really consistent, and I don't feel like it's worst than RUG or Grixis, of course I want to play Lightning Bolt+Delver, but at the cost of being 4c, I don't think it's worth. BUG Delver(Stifle) seems the way to go for me, gives access to nice cards, and can play different plans.That said, my other team mates play RUG and Grixis, they are both satisfied with their decks too.

[Homason]

I have also played around with HJ's list on Magic Online, here are some of my conclusions:

#theweeklywars #11 — Team America

I also realise there's a seperate thread for Delverless lists, but I think the benefits of this list is worth discussing here as well: Team America by pow22, top four in the May Legacy Challenge on Magic Online.

Hey Jonathan,

i really enjoy reading your Posts. It is very helpful for me to overthink "fix-slots" like delver of secrets. In my opinion it is wrong to cut the Cliques for Tnn because of our sweepers in the sb but it`s a possibility i will reconsider.

My last tech includes
2 strix
2 clique
3 goyf
2 stalker
1 tnn

I earned an open slot by cutting a creature and tried to go along with a singelton Reanimate.
The Creaturebase and Reanimate came up by theorycrafting to get ahead against BUG and Eldrazi.
Let me hear what you think about this.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Thanks for the feedback, it's very much appreciated.

That said, I've been playing the Stifle Version of the deck, and it's impressing me, the deck is really consistent, and I don't feel like it's worst than RUG or Grixis, of course I want to play Lightning Bolt+Delver, but at the cost of being 4c, I don't think it's worth.

Care to share your list? I never really liked the combination of Deathrite Shaman & Stifle, I always felt I had too many cards that do nothing with those decks. Maybe your list can solve that problem though?

Hey Jonathan,

i really enjoy reading your Posts. It is very helpful for me to overthink "fix-slots" like delver of secrets. In my opinion it is wrong to cut the Cliques for Tnn because of our sweepers in the sb but it`s a possibility i will reconsider.

My last tech includes
2 strix
2 clique
3 goyf
2 stalker
1 tnn

I earned an open slot by cutting a creature and tried to go along with a singelton Reanimate.
The Creaturebase and Reanimate came up by theorycrafting to get ahead against BUG and Eldrazi.
Let me hear what you think about this.

Reanimate is sweet. Not sure if it's actually good, but it can do crazy things. We had a copy in the original burg list, but I was the only one who never got real value from it, while others constantly managed to nab their opponents' Griselbrands...
Strix is something HJ mentioned when I first started playing the deck, but I haven't gotten around to testing it yet.

True-Name being a problem with the sideboard sweepers hasn't come up yet, but I noticed there was a potential problem. I currently have Marsh Casualties in my decklist, but I haven't played since I made the change. True-Name works really well with Jace though, which I really like. Jace is one of the main benefits of running more lands than most Delver decks and Deathrites.

[Homason]

Thanks for the feedback, it's very much appreciated.



Care to share your list? I never really liked the combination of Deathrite Shaman & Stifle, I always felt I had too many cards that do nothing with those decks. Maybe your list can solve that problem though?





Reanimate is sweet. Not sure if it's actually good, but it can do crazy things. We had a copy in the original burg list, but I was the only one who never got real value from it, while others constantly managed to nab their opponents' Griselbrands...
Strix is something HJ mentioned when I first started playing the deck, but I haven't gotten around to testing it yet.

True-Name being a problem with the sideboard sweepers hasn't come up yet, but I noticed there was a potential problem. I currently have Marsh Casualties in my decklist, but I haven't played since I made the change. True-Name works really well with Jace though, which I really like. Jace is one of the main benefits of running more lands than most Delver decks and Deathrites.

I tested the list for some games (went fine) and asked myself:
If I don`t play Delver is my Deck just a worse Version of Shardless BUG?

The Reason we are playing the Deck over Shardless is the better Combo Matchup. By cutting those Delvers we don`t have that benefit anymore.
So I thought about cutting one Delver for TNN but haven`t tested it yet.
Let me know your thoughts about it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't think this deck has a better combo matchup than Shardless because of the Delvers. (Note that I have played Storm a lot against both Shardless and Team America.)
Storm is a big favourite game one even against Team America. The difference comes in the postboard games, where Shardless has so many awful cards (Vision, Strix, Agent, Liliana) they can't cut them all. They also don't get to board in enough countermagic - I actually treat Shardless as a non-blue deck when I'm playing Storm. Team America on the other hand gets to run countermagic and also has Ponder. These two factors make a world of difference. Team America always forces the Storm player to respect countermagic (they have ~11 pieces), Shardless simply doesn't. Even the threat of Daze can slow the Storm player down by a full turn.

The Delverless version of Team America might just be what Shardless wants to be. I board out Delver in a lot of matchups anyway. Cutting them entirely might make the Eldrazi matchup worse though, especially with less than four Goyfs. Them having an Ancient Tomb draw while you have Delver is the easiest way to beat them, and I like having this actually come up. Of course, this only works if you manage to transform Delver, which is not exactly guaranteed.

True-Name is just a great card in this deck. It wins me so many games. I would've liked to try Delverless on MTGO today, but I have neither Moxen nor Lilianas, so I probably won't be able to try that in the near future. I'll see what I can do though, I'm definitely interested in the list.

[dvscape]

Hello guys,

In light of the upcoming Legacy GP in Europe, I started focusing more on the format and specifically on the Delver versions of BUG. After reading through this thread, I see several players have expressed their dissatisfaction at the volatility of the deck in general, as infused by specific cards (i.e. Delver, Hymn, etc).

In addition to the volatitily factor added by cards that do not perform across multiple matchups, I feel that a significant contribution is also the unfocused strategy of most lists. Don't take it as harsh criticism please, but I feel that the ability to transition from a tempo deck to a shabby midrange/control is less relevant than being able to perform one role to the fullest.

In this regard, I have cut TNN & Hymn from my Delver list. I initially started with Stifles, but quickly removed those after I realized that we are not as focused on aggression as Canadian, due to lack of Bolts and Mongeese. The replacements were flexible numbers of Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce. My list below:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Dread of Night

Pros: It has 27 Delver hits and a lower curve than the average BUG list. I think it's actually possible to go down to 18 lands, but I like the added consistency.

Cons: Weak against midrange, since we lack the strong individual cards (Lili, Jace). It's easier to outgrind us via opposing Hymns and a string of removal. Ancestral Vision is a nightmare.

Europe is known as a combo-dominated field, but I doubt that such a statement will stand in a 3,000 player Grand Prix. Regardless, I feel that BUG Delver is a combo killer, while not giving up too much ground against Miracles. The true weakness consists of opposing Midrange and Lands strategies. Those could also be shored up, but I don't want to weaken my strong matchups in any way.

Hit me with your constructive criticism, please.

[btm10]

I don't think this deck has a better combo matchup than Shardless because of the Delvers. (Note that I have played Storm a lot against both Shardless and Team America.)
Storm is a big favourite game one even against Team America. The difference comes in the postboard games, where Shardless has so many awful cards (Vision, Strix, Agent, Liliana) they can't cut them all. They also don't get to board in enough countermagic - I actually treat Shardless as a non-blue deck when I'm playing Storm. Team America on the other hand gets to run countermagic and also has Ponder. These two factors make a world of difference. Team America always forces the Storm player to respect countermagic (they have ~11 pieces), Shardless simply doesn't. Even the threat of Daze can slow the Storm player down by a full turn.

The Delverless version of Team America might just be what Shardless wants to be. I board out Delver in a lot of matchups anyway. Cutting them entirely might make the Eldrazi matchup worse though, especially with less than four Goyfs. Them having an Ancient Tomb draw while you have Delver is the easiest way to beat them, and I like having this actually come up. Of course, this only works if you manage to transform Delver, which is not exactly guaranteed.

True-Name is just a great card in this deck. It wins me so many games. I would've liked to try Delverless on MTGO today, but I have neither Moxen nor Lilianas, so I probably won't be able to try that in the near future. I'll see what I can do though, I'm definitely interested in the list.

There's a lot here, but I think most of it, along with your blog post, is solid reasoning. I was considering Team America for GP Columbus and it's still on the table for Eternal Extravaganza (work and family obligations will keep me from going to Columbus, unfortunately), and came to a lot of similar initial conclusions. What I found when I tested Delver-less TA builds was that they were worse than Delver builds against combo and worse than Shardless against 'fair' decks without gaining enough advantage back on either side to really make the trade-off worth it. The deck has a lot of staying power since it supports Snapcaster Mage, Painful Truths, and Planeswalkers quite well, but it's not a particularly good Daze shell, nor is it as good a Tarmogoyf deck as Shardless.

[hofzge]

In light of the upcoming Legacy GP in Europe, I started focusing more on the format and specifically on the Delver versions of BUG. After reading through this thread, I see several players have expressed their dissatisfaction at the volatility of the deck in general, as infused by specific cards (i.e. Delver, Hymn, etc).

In addition to the volatitily factor added by cards that do not perform across multiple matchups, I feel that a significant contribution is also the unfocused strategy of most lists. Don't take it as harsh criticism please, but I feel that the ability to transition from a tempo deck to a shabby midrange/control is less relevant than being able to perform one role to the fullest.

In this regard, I have cut TNN & Hymn from my Delver list. I initially started with Stifles, but quickly removed those after I realized that we are not as focused on aggression as Canadian, due to lack of Bolts and Mongeese. The replacements were flexible numbers of Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce. My list below:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Dread of Night

Pros: It has 27 Delver hits and a lower curve than the average BUG list. I think it's actually possible to go down to 18 lands, but I like the added consistency.

Cons: Weak against midrange, since we lack the strong individual cards (Lili, Jace). It's easier to outgrind us via opposing Hymns and a string of removal. Ancestral Vision is a nightmare.

Europe is known as a combo-dominated field, but I doubt that such a statement will stand in a 3,000 player Grand Prix. Regardless, I feel that BUG Delver is a combo killer, while not giving up too much ground against Miracles. The true weakness consists of opposing Midrange and Lands strategies. Those could also be shored up, but I don't want to weaken my strong matchups in any way.

Hit me with your constructive criticism, please.

I love the way your list goes. You are right that the cards in the default lists at the moment don't fully match what you want to do: Hymn, TNN, Liliana and to some extent Tombstalker and Abrupt Decay are clunky spells. Sure they are powerful, but in any game where you don't have Deathrite Shaman in your starting 7 removal spells become a liability.

Building on your list I would change to this (mostly personal taste) - I reduced the land count to 18 and pur another disruption spell main - this could as well be a removal spell:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB
1 Disfigure
2 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Invasive Surgery
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

[Valarne]

Hello there.

While it seems, that Grixis is the most preferred Delver approach, I think BUG makes better sense in a world of Counterbalances and Chalice of the Voids, amongst other things.

I went 11-3-1 at GP Prague (41st) without facing a single combo deck (besides Dredge I guess) + 4-2 at trials the day before the event, still all grindy matchups, no broken stuff. That was almost what I expected, although I definitely would have expected to meet Show and Tell and Storm as well. Met and beat Shardless, Miracles and Lands several times, lost to Jund, Burn and Maverick, drew with Dredge.

Bottomline - I feel quite confident that I have a good list for the metagame - True-Name being the secret MVP. Weaknesses being the pseudo-mirror against Grixis because of their Bolts, and to some extent graveyard-based decks that either go around DRS, og are too fast. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions. - Tue

Main 60:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death-Rite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


SB 15:

2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Sower of Temptation (could be just one + something else, slot designed for Eldrazi/Shardless/SnT)
2 Bitterblossom (can be split with Sylvan Library)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce

[Mat]

Hello there.

While it seems, that Grixis is the most preferred Delver approach, I think BUG makes better sense in a world of Counterbalances and Chalice of the Voids, amongst other things.

I went 11-3-1 at GP Prague (41st) without facing a single combo deck (besides Dredge I guess) + 4-2 at trials the day before the event, still all grindy matchups, no broken stuff. That was almost what I expected, although I definitely would have expected to meet Show and Tell and Storm as well. Met and beat Shardless, Miracles and Lands several times, lost to Jund, Burn and Maverick, drew with Dredge.

Bottomline - I feel quite confident that I have a good list for the metagame - True-Name being the secret MVP. Weaknesses being the pseudo-mirror against Grixis because of their Bolts, and to some extent graveyard-based decks that either go around DRS, og are too fast. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions. - Tue

Main 60:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death-Rite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


SB 15:

2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Sower of Temptation (could be just one + something else, slot designed for Eldrazi/Shardless/SnT)
2 Bitterblossom (can be split with Sylvan Library)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce

I Don't like Hymn anymore, makes me play bayou and be in weird positions. I wonder if it won u many games, it probably did I guess. Also, I want to know more about the Bitterblossom, if u have the time. Like you, i think BUG is the way to go, with chalices, counterbalances and Eldrazis everywhere, Decay and Tamogoyf are too good. I'm playing the 18 lands list (3 Trop, 3 U.Sea, 4 Waste) and I'm really impressed by it right now. The deck feels really consistent. Congratz on your finish u did great!

[Valarne]

I Don't like Hymn anymore, makes me play bayou and be in weird positions. I wonder if it won u many games, it probably did I guess. Also, I want to know more about the Bitterblossom, if u have the time. Like you, i think BUG is the way to go, with chalices, counterbalances and Eldrazis everywhere, Decay and Tamogoyf are too good. I'm playing the 18 lands list (3 Trop, 3 U.Sea, 4 Waste) and I'm really impressed by it right now. The deck feels really consistent. Congratz on your finish u did great!

I like Hymn a lot - it improves Miracles and Eldrazi matchup in particular (beyond obvious qualities against combo). I am also not happy with Bayou, so I only play 1, whereas most other lists contain 2. Hymn is also a way of getting rid of removal waiting to take out our creatures. I do board Hymn out often, but as a card that fills the slot of anti-combo-anti control, it is often also very good against creature matchups, simply removing removal or two threats. The sheer powerlevel and versatility gives it the nod over Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce, or Stifle for instance.

Bitterblossom is a house against Miracles, and chumps Marit Lage all day. Also nice in Delver mirrors, at least on the play. But Miracles is the main reason. I prefer a 2cc threat over something heavy like Liliana or Jace.

Edit: Thanks, it was a good run. These were my exact matchups if it is of any interest:

Rd 1: Dragon Stompy – W
Rd 2: Burn – L
Rd 3: Dredge – D
Rd 4: Eldrazi – W
Rd 5: Shardless – W
Rd 6: Jund – L
Rd 7: Lands – W
Rd 8: Miracles – W
Rd 9: Gr Cloudpost – W
Rd 10: Maverick – L
Rd 11: Lands – W
Rd 12: Shardless – W
Rd 13: 4c Loam – W
Rd 14: Miracles – W
Rd 15: Dark Bant – W

[QuranJames]

Hey!

Does anyone see any place for the newly spoiled Whispers of Emrakul in BUG Delver lists? Since we already run Tarmogoyf, Delirium shouldn't be too difficult to enable, and replacing 1-2 Hymns with 1-2 Whispers may be a helpful way to smooth out our mana base in the early game. Any thoughts?

[Asthereal]

Hey!

Does anyone see any place for the newly spoiled Whispers of Emrakul in BUG Delver lists? Since we already run Tarmogoyf, Delirium shouldn't be too difficult to enable, and replacing 1-2 Hymns with 1-2 Whispers may be a helpful way to smooth out our mana base in the early game. Any thoughts?

When Delirium is turned on, hands are most likely to be pretty empty already. Discard matters most when you play it early, and when you play this early, you usually won't have Delirium yet. The BB cost from Hymn is taxing, but I'd never replace Hymn with one of these. If I wanted to replace Hymns, I'd much rather switch to Thoughtseize.

[Moerocknroll]

Hi,
today Grim Flayer was spoiled for the Eldritch Moon Editition. What do the communinty think. May he have place in TA as a 2-3 off.

My Idea is to play this creatures:
4 Delver, 4 DRS, 3-4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Gurmag, 2-3 Grim Flayer.

Cheers

Moe

[btm10]

He seems much worse than Tarmogoyf - harder to cast and tops out at 4/4, so he doesn't even bounce off of an ordinary Tarmogoyf, he just gets eaten. Trample doesn't make up for that and the milling ability is marginal at best. I'd play Managorger Hydra before that guy, and Quirion Dryad is alao likely better.

[Mat]

Hello guys, last week I went to GP São Paulo and played legacy side events, one of them with 150+ players. I'm gonna make a quick report, and since I don't remeber everything I will just write down the really important stuff, and some highlights.

My decklist changed from event to event, so I'm gonna show you the first one, and then gonna show only the changes.

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Murderous Cut
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will


First Event: 3-1
My only lost was to a Shardless BUG, because I played wrong. Sincerely, It was so wrong that, any decent player would have done better. I can definitely say that the deck went 4-0 and I made 3-1.

Second Event 4-0
Changes:
Side:
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Diverts
+1 Abrupt Decay
This one was a little easier, got a miracles in the way but the guy was just bad. The deck went well. The highlight was the last match, against Affinity where Null Rod was outstanding and won my heart. The Diverts were useless, the fourth Decay was decent, but not impressive.

Third Event 6-2
Main:
-1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember

Side:
-1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Abrupt Decay

I lost to Lands and Elves. Beat a good Miracles player (friend of mine) what made me feel that the deck is really a nice choice.
About the losts:
Lands:
The game was pretty close, and could have went both ways. I drew a lot of cards with D.Confidant, but coulnd't find a second land drop in game 3, that destroyed my game. I'm getting closer to the point where I belive that lands is not going to be a bad matchup anymore. Also, I can assure that the Lands player was good, probably the best brasilian with the deck.

Elves:
Have a lot to say about this matchup. Abrupt is needed, but is awful (3 are probably fine). Decay costs 2 to kill a 1 mana creature, its terrible, here was where I missed Lightning Bolt the most. In my opnion, this is by far, the worst matchup. You can pile up a lot of decent cards against them, but somethimes, your hand is good againt their Aggro or NO or Glimpse, and if they have a different thing in their hand, there is not much u can do.


Overall:
The deck is really resilient, and have a lot to show. The worst match-ups are: Elves, Lands, DnT, Miracles. The last three being pretty close ones. After the event I started working on a list. I think it has future, but Elves are annoying me. Also, as a player, I'm never gonna play a card that's really just good against something in specific . I'm talking about Baleful Strix, right now. It's really good agains Eldrazi and also against Gurmag Angler (Stops it and makes Goyf 5/6), but that's it, I don't think it worth 2 Slots, maybe not even one.

My "Final" deck:
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (11)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Murderous Cut
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

4 Slots in SB can be:
Invasive Surgery
Nihil Spell Bomb
Darkblast
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Winter Orb
Painful Truths
Liliana, of the Veil
Toxic Deluge
Pithing Needle (Another One)
Grafdigge's Cage
Bitterblossom (Valarne's choice)

Have to figure out the numbers based on Side in/out. But right now, its probably Dark blast, Pulse, Invasive, Nihil.

About D. Confidants:
Bob doens't belong in this deck, that's true, but legacy is so diversified that it really pays off using him. Sometimes It puts people in a position where they have to kill Bob or Delver. depending on their choice, u just have to adjust your gameplan, and win tha game with what is left. That said, maibe I can change them for Painful Truths in the SB.

Sorry for all the grammar mistakes. Any thoughts you have, please share. Thanks!

Bitterblossom is a house against Miracles, and chumps Marit Lage all day. Also nice in Delver mirrors, at least on the play. But Miracles is the main reason. I prefer a 2cc threat over something heavy like Liliana or Jace.

I'm gonna check it out. What about the life loss? It is despicable? If the answer is yes, It's better than Lili indeed.

[Rackhamm]

The Brainstorm show put out an "anti-miracles" bug delver list on their cast yesterday alongside an in-depth discussion.

Full playset of mongoose, stifle, daze, and 2 clique MB. Zero goyf, only 2 TS side for discard. Looks pretty interesting and fits some of the discussion on here recently vis a vis running Hymns and co just feeling like being on a worse version of shardless.

[Agrippa91]

Man, this deck from the brainstorm show just really impresses me!
I play Grixis (with stifle and 2 AD sb) currently because I don't like BUG with all its 2-drops, but I love Nimble Mongoose and the fact that this deck has 6 removal spells as well as 2 Spell Pierce. The only expensive things are your decays which you don't have to play around counterspells and the cliques which are also easily pitched to FoW in G1, but give really nice advantage against combo, lands and miracles, the last two being really good matchups from what I can tell thus far.

I like that we can actually play Rough/Tumble in Golgari Charm here. Together with Invasive Surgery I think this can really balance our elves matchup g2 and g3.

I don't like their sideboard though, here's what I'm currently testing:

2 Invasive Surgery
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hydroblast
2 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
2 Golgari Charm
1 Winter Orb
1 Painful Truths
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Hydroblast might seem weird to you, it's nice against Bloodmoon and Lightning Bolt decks though. Not sure I need 2, it seems nice with so many of these 2 cards around though.

[ironclad8690]

Hydroblast is awesome in grixis.meta. I have been playing that list (with the original sideboard though), recently I 4-1'ed a league with it and I am taking a short break from it.

It is pretty good against control decks, but I was having trouble vs other tempo decks and chalice decks.

[Agrippa91]

Here's a sideboard I thought about, designed for the online meta where there's hardly burn and d&t. This led me to shave the hydroblasts since golgari charm does a better job against young pyromancer imo.

2 Flusterstorm
2 invasive surgery
2 thoughtseize

2 golgari charm

2 disfigure
2 go for the throat

2 surgical extraction
1 pithing needle

Here's the reasonings:
I really focused on combo and tempo decks for the sideboard. So i put in efficient removal and a ton of disruption. Against storm and other combo decks I'd like to take out all nimble mongooses and just go with 10 efficient creatures. Exception is Sneak&Show where I'd like to keep in 2 decays against defense grid and blood moon. Invasive Surgery is a stupidly underplayed card imo, also against elves. I split it with Flusterstorm though to provide additional cards to bring in vs red delver decks.
The 2 disfigures are there against drs and delver, go for the throats I liked vs Eldrazi especially, but are also good against other goyf decks.
golgari charm is very much like rough/tumble, on of the strengths of RUG Delver postboard. They also help against TNN, RIP and Blood Moon which is nice, helping us by not having to waste decays in the miracles matchup.

Surgical is not only against lands (which is a fine matchup), but especially against fast reanimator and dredge decks since we tend to be a fairly slow deck.

I don't think I have to explain Pithing Needle.

I really don't think we need painful truths or winter orb. Not only are those two cards super overrated, but playing with a stifle grixis build I realized how clunky they were. I really want this deck to play out as efficiently as possible.