[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Asthereal]

Anyone play with a maindeck Sylvan Library?

I play 1x Sylvan main deck. It's great.
I liked it so much I even put a second one in my sideboard.

But it's a trade-off. You also want to max out on Liliana, keep your blue count up, keep at least 24 instants and sorceries for Delver and so on. The optimal list depends on what matchups you face. Sylvan is a great card against the many midrange and control decks out there right now, but it has to compete with other excellent cards like Lily and several creatures that shine against deck A but suck against deck B. It's versatility made me choose Sylvan over several other options, but I won't go as far as to claim I am right about this.

[Esper3k]

@grizzle: Thanks for the info, it seemed a little awkward in playtesting but it's good to hear from someone with tourney experience. I think I'll go with the 3 Force/3 Hymn/2 Thoughtseize split instead and see how I like it.

Anyone play with a maindeck Sylvan Library?

I play both the 3 FoW / 3 Hymn / 2 TS split along with the maindeck Sylvan Library. I've been happy with all of them since with the 4x Brainstorm / 4x Ponder, we see so many cards and it makes our maindeck extremely flexible.

[phazonmutant]

Hey all,

This is my current TA list. It's been doing quite well for me lately, and has the adjustments needed in the new metagame.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island


SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil

I've been playing with your list (with minor sideboard changes for my meta) for a couple of tournaments now, and it's helped solidify some notions I have about the deck. First off, thanks for sharing, it's a very solid build. So I played in a 70-person tournament and went 2-2, losing to the mirror (playing something similar to Esper's list), and BUG Nic Fit Pod. In the mirror, having Disfigures main was quite good. Pithing Needle was good against Pod, but he had Deed to blow me out. I also went 3-0-1 in a 40-person weekly. Maindeck Sylvan was extremely good against Blade.

So overall I agree that in the current meta it's definitely correct to play 2 Liliana and 1 Sylvan in the main. They're versatile and powerful. Many of the other 4-ofs can be trimmed though. I haven't figured out the optimal split of Hymn, Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and Disfigure, but I'm tinkering with the numbers. I like your creature package with Tombstalker and Clique, but I'm not sure about the extras in the board. I still feel like Maelstrom Pulse and Grip are necessary, but that is putting a ton of 3-drops in the deck.

[Emo]

I know I will get absolutely blasted for asking this question but instead of having a second library in the board, is there any merit to running a one of JTMS in the board? I know he is clunky BUT he pitches to force, has more utility to than library, dodges decay and most hate, and is always an alternate win con in complete grindfests but 4cmc is a lot for this deck.

Also does anyone run Toxic Deluge in their board? I am currently running the 2 tombstalker build.

[Griselpuff]

I don't like Deluge because we play Delver and DRS. That being said, it might still be okay vs the tribal matchups. Jace is also fine. You would only bring him in when the games go long.

I also recently swapped the Clique for a Disfigure. I feel like the other instants and sorceries are so powerful so I like playing them as 4 ofs. If I played Confidant, I would try the 3/3/2 hymn fow seize split though.

[Barbed Blightning]

I know I will get absolutely blasted for asking this question but instead of having a second library in the board, is there any merit to running a one of JTMS in the board? I know he is clunky BUT he pitches to force, has more utility to than library, dodges decay and most hate, and is always an alternate win con in complete grindfests but 4cmc is a lot for this deck.

Also does anyone run Toxic Deluge in their board? I am currently running the 2 tombstalker build.

JTMS is not unreasonable I think, especially if you expect a lot of Miracles.

Deluge, however, has been terrible in my experience. Rarely does it do more than Charm in the matchups where you want it and killing your DRS is no bueno.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[KobeBryan]

JTMS is not unreasonable I think, especially if you expect a lot of Miracles.

Deluge, however, has been terrible in my experience. Rarely does it do more than Charm in the matchups where you want it and killing your DRS is no bueno.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

I think a 1 of is ok.

Sometimes you just need to clean up an out of control board.

[Emo]

Thank you all for your advice, I think I will put 1 Jace in the board for the Miracles matchup and he serves for other various grindy decks.

Secondly, how do you all board and approach the shardless MU? I feel most comfortable with the 2-tombstalker build and I usually bring in a 3rd disfigure from the board along with an extra hymn - to make it a 4-of. How are Jace and Sylvan in this matchup?- Is our goal just to try to land a threat and tempo them out ASAP via tombstalker or delver OR does anyone here have any sideboard tech which has worked exceptionally well against shardless bug? I have noticed a considerable uptick in the amount of Shardless Bug players lately- and this is a matchup I face at lease once in every tournament I go to.

[Emo]

I would also like to add that I have read the primer, but from my standpoint I can't agree with the analsyis that this is an Even matchup against Shardless Bug

[Dragonslayer_90]

I would also like to add that I have read the primer, but from my standpoint I can't agree with the analsyis that this is an Even matchup against Shardless Bug

Would be helpful to know what configuration you are playing to give you more exact advice. I'll probably make some changes to the primer soon and probably update the matchup analysis section specifically. Anyways, here's what I have to say generally about the shardless matchup: Game 1 you usually have to tempo them out to win otherwise you usually just lose to their card advantage. The exception is if you can get a library or lili to stick. Both are essential for the matchup. Postboard side out force and daze and other 'bad' cards for more removal and grindy matchup cards like library, lili, and jace. Plan A should still be to tempo them out but if that fails you are usually better equipped to grind in postboard games. I'd recommend a lot of playtesting if you are seeing that matchup a lot whenever you play. I'm probably going to start testing that matchup myself as I'm thinking it's not as even as I thought it is. I guess in the past when I've faced it in tournaments I played tightly and got just lucky enough to scrape by.

[Griselpuff]

I think the matchup is even if they don't have Deluge and you have Tombstalker. Never side out Daze, it's your best card against them as post sb they can never play around it. Just make sure to keep their DRS off the board

[KobeBryan]

You dont need to board much against them.

Take out the 4 FOW, (if you have another card, you board in Lily)

in 3 disfigure, pulse, (lily)

[Emo]

Would be helpful to know what configuration you are playing to give you more exact advice. I'll probably make some changes to the primer soon and probably update the matchup analysis section specifically. Anyways, here's what I have to say generally about the shardless matchup: Game 1 you usually have to tempo them out to win otherwise you usually just lose to their card advantage. The exception is if you can get a library or lili to stick. Both are essential for the matchup. Postboard side out force and daze and other 'bad' cards for more removal and grindy matchup cards like library, lili, and jace. Plan A should still be to tempo them out but if that fails you are usually better equipped to grind in postboard games. I'd recommend a lot of playtesting if you are seeing that matchup a lot whenever you play. I'm probably going to start testing that matchup myself as I'm thinking it's not as even as I thought it is. I guess in the past when I've faced it in tournaments I played tightly and got just lucky enough to scrape by.

Thanks for the response, Also I in no way think the primer is wrong; I just have noticed that in the past few months Shardless lists like that of Leejay (cutting Baleful strix and maindecking deluge or more PWs) have become prevalent, and from my standpoint ( I haven't play-tested this MU too too much) this has evolved into a more difficult MU.

Here is my current list of the deck

4 Underground seas
2 bayou
1 tropical
4 waste
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforests

4 delver
4 goyf
4 deathrite
2 tombstalker

4 daze
4 force

4 brainstorm
3 ponder

2 disfigure
3 abrupt decay

3 hymns (just gonna go with 4 hymns)
1 thoughtseize

2 liliannas

SB

2 golgari charms
1 pithing needle
1 JTMS
1 Krosan grip
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 engineered plague
1 disfigure
1 sylvan library
1 nihil spellbomb
1 Pulse

Against Shardless- its usually 1 JTMS, 1 disfigure, 1 sylvan 2 thoughtseize- I take out 4 forces and the daze count depends if I am playing or drawing

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks for the response, Also I in no way think the primer is wrong; I just have noticed that in the past few months Shardless lists like that of Leejay (cutting Baleful strix and maindecking deluge or more PWs) have become prevalent, and from my standpoint ( I haven't play-tested this MU too too much) this has evolved into a more difficult MU.

Here is my current list of the deck

4 Underground seas
2 bayou
1 tropical
4 waste
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforests

4 delver
4 goyf
4 deathrite
2 tombstalker

4 daze
4 force

4 brainstorm
3 ponder

2 disfigure
3 abrupt decay

3 hymns (just gonna go with 4 hymns)
1 thoughtseize

2 liliannas

SB

2 golgari charms
1 pithing needle
1 JTMS
1 Krosan grip
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 engineered plague
1 disfigure
1 sylvan library
1 nihil spellbomb
1 Pulse

Against Shardless- its usually 1 JTMS, 1 disfigure, 1 sylvan 2 thoughtseize- I take out 4 forces and the daze count depends if I am playing or drawing

No problem. I just feel some of the sections need to be updated and/or changed since my perception of certain matchups has changed overtime with more experience. For instance I used to think Sneak and Show is a bad MU, but now I think it's even in most situations, when they don't have god hands basically. I still don't like playing against that deck either way though :P

Akatsuki bring's up a good point about daze versus Shardless BUG. The deck is a pretty clunky deck in general so it's hard for them to play around daze. I think as long as you make sure they don't stick an early deathrite your dazes should be relatively strong against them. With your list I'd sb the following way: -4 Force of Will +1 Jace, disfigure, Sylvan, and pulse.

[KobeBryan]

No problem. I just feel some of the sections need to be updated and/or changed since my perception of certain matchups has changed overtime with more experience. For instance I used to think Sneak and Show is a bad MU, but now I think it's even in most situations, when they don't have god hands basically. I still don't like playing against that deck either way though :P

Akatsuki bring's up a good point about daze versus Shardless BUG. The deck is a pretty clunky deck in general so it's hard for them to play around daze. I think as long as you make sure they don't stick an early deathrite your dazes should be relatively strong against them. With your list I'd sb the following way: -4 Force of Will +1 Jace, disfigure, Sylvan, and pulse.

Actually,

Spell pierce is pretty good against Shardless. It may be less of a dead card compared to daze.

[Barbed Blightning]

Actually,

Spell pierce is pretty good against Shardless. It may be less of a dead card compared to daze.

Pierce is decent, but I prefer Daze because it is cheaper and easier to keep up.

Also, if anyone is on the Shardless Agent hype train like myself, that should probably come in (over dazes or pierces, obv.)

[TheHeff]

Wanted to write back with a short write-up of my Legacy FNM tonight, first time playing the deck. I went with the 20 land, 2 Tombstalker, 3/3/2 (Force/Hymn/Thoughtseize) split with 2 Liliana's MB, no Sylvan Library MB. The following sideboard:

2x Disfigure
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Null Rod
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x VClique

Ended up going 1-2 with a win against Sneak and Show and losses to TES and Deathblade. The Deathblade matchup in particular I never felt like I could really get a footing on, but I might've just been drawing bad. My opponent did make the remark that I could've been more aggressive with my Sylvan Library (had it T2, but was worried about losing too much life to see more cards since I was behind on board but ahead in life total). Anyone have some simple rules of thumb for using SL? Obviously it's very situation dependent, but I'm looking to improve my play in any way possible.

A couple of questions moving forward:
My meta seems very saturated with storm (3 players out of 10 tonight) with RUG/UWR Delver rounding out the rest, mostly. Odd smattering of Deathblade, Infect, or S&S decks every once in awhile. Is it worth trying to squeeze an extra Flusterstorm in just for my meta? Or maybe move one decay to the sideboard for the FoW? Also, maybe drop Tombstalker for Confidant and add a maindeck Sylvan Library in addition for more card selection? Or do I just need to load it up on cockatrice and try a bunch of iterations? :P

[Esper3k]

I'm usually pretty aggressive when using Sylvan Library if you're against a non-red deck. I've been known to pay 8 life just to clear chaff off the top of my deck (if you don't have a shuffle effect).

[Dragonslayer_90]

Wanted to write back with a short write-up of my Legacy FNM tonight, first time playing the deck. I went with the 20 land, 2 Tombstalker, 3/3/2 (Force/Hymn/Thoughtseize) split with 2 Liliana's MB, no Sylvan Library MB. The following sideboard:

2x Disfigure
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Null Rod
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x VClique

Ended up going 1-2 with a win against Sneak and Show and losses to TES and Deathblade. The Deathblade matchup in particular I never felt like I could really get a footing on, but I might've just been drawing bad. My opponent did make the remark that I could've been more aggressive with my Sylvan Library (had it T2, but was worried about losing too much life to see more cards since I was behind on board but ahead in life total). Anyone have some simple rules of thumb for using SL? Obviously it's very situation dependent, but I'm looking to improve my play in any way possible.

A couple of questions moving forward:
My meta seems very saturated with storm (3 players out of 10 tonight) with RUG/UWR Delver rounding out the rest, mostly. Odd smattering of Deathblade, Infect, or S&S decks every once in awhile. Is it worth trying to squeeze an extra Flusterstorm in just for my meta? Or maybe move one decay to the sideboard for the FoW? Also, maybe drop Tombstalker for Confidant and add a maindeck Sylvan Library in addition for more card selection? Or do I just need to load it up on cockatrice and try a bunch of iterations? :P

Your Meta seems to be at least half combo generally, in which case I'd move the fourth Force of Will main deck and sylvan main deck to replace tombstalkers. I know wcm8 has been playing with only 12 creatures and a library main deck in what seems like a combo and control heavy meta to good success. To replace the force and sylvan sb slots I'd considering the following: 1 or 2 Pithing Needle, pulse, another spell pierce, another disfigure.

I agree with Esper3k pretty much regarding using library, if they don't have red and you have the life to spare dig aggressively for what you need.

[phazonmutant]

I don't like Deluge because we play Delver and DRS. That being said, it might still be okay vs the tribal matchups. Jace is also fine. You would only bring him in when the games go long.

I also recently swapped the Clique for a Disfigure. I feel like the other instants and sorceries are so powerful so I like playing them as 4 ofs. If I played Confidant, I would try the 3/3/2 hymn fow seize split though.

I'll give that a shot as well. Clique has been decent, but really none of the creatures past the base 11-12 are phenomenal preboard against all decks. I tried Bob as a 1-of for a long time and I don't think I ever was happy having him in play. Maybe I was catching the bad end of variance on a small sample size of him in play, but he never drew me relevant cards or attacked profitably. I would just rather play a Sylvan Library.