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Thread: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

  1. #941

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Nice finish was rooting for you to top 8.

    How did Darkblast perform?

  2. #942
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Well, I think I've settled on a list. I played a Wiley-style list with 3 Cruise over the Bobs and a 19th land, Sylvan Library, and MD Clique over the Stifles at a GPT yesterday and while it was fine, I wasn't. I played this today at a different GPT and finished 2nd, with my only match loss coming in the finals:

    Land (19)
    8 Fetch
    4 Wasteland
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou

    Creatures (13)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    Draw/Manipulation (10)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    3 Treasure Cruise

    Disruption/Removal (18)
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Abrupt Decay
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Dimir Charm
    2 Liliana of the Veil

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Disfigure
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Zur's Weirding
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle

    I played Remy (MUD, 2-0), Paul (Infect, 2-0), Ian (BUG Delver, no Cruises, w/ Confidants, 2-1), and ID'ed with Adam (Miracles, but we played it out for fun. I won 2-0), and Dan (12post). In the top 4, I played Dan, winning 2-0 and Remy again in the finals, losing 2-1. I played the finals fairly loosely and could easily have won game 1 had I mulliganed a marginal seven into something more reasonable and I absolutely punted game 3 at a multiple points. Dimir Charm continues to impress me, and I'd like to find room for the fourth Ponder. The True-Name Nemesis is the obvious cut, but the thing I find myself digging for most frequently is creatures. The Thoughtseizes play well with Liliana, handle things that Decay can't kill preboard, and I like having the discard as additional disruption against combo, so I don't think I'd be down for cutting either of them.

  3. #943

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Darkblast is very powerful, but a bit narrow. I like running 1.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I played Remy (MUD, 2-0), Paul (Infect, 2-0), Ian (BUG Delver, no Cruises, w/ Confidants, 2-1), and ID'ed with Adam (Miracles, but we played it out for fun. I won 2-0), and Dan (12post). In the top 4, I played Dan, winning 2-0 and Remy again in the finals, losing 2-1. I played the finals fairly loosely and could easily have won game 1 had I mulliganed a marginal seven into something more reasonable and I absolutely punted game 3 at a multiple points. Dimir Charm continues to impress me, and I'd like to find room for the fourth Ponder. The True-Name Nemesis is the obvious cut, but the thing I find myself digging for most frequently is creatures. The Thoughtseizes play well with Liliana, handle things that Decay can't kill preboard, and I like having the discard as additional disruption against combo, so I don't think I'd be down for cutting either of them.
    I think Dimir Charm is in a good place for you as well; doubly so if you are like me and you recite out loud what it does and then proceed to cast a Treasure Cruise into it anyway. I guess technically I can say I was trying to clear the path in case I drew a Show and Tell, but regardless, it seems well-positioned if people are going to be running TC everywhere. I hope Zur's Weirding catches on too, because when that card is good, it's devastating.

  5. #945
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Darkblast is very powerful, but a bit narrow. I like running 1.
    You did have a lot of spot removal in the board, though. Did it feel like overload alongside 3 Disfigure? I totally dig the Tar Pit. I ran without it this weekend, but it should probably come back to the board because I'm boarding at least one four-drop in in some matches, and it may be the extra threat I was referring to above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zotmaster View Post
    I think Dimir Charm is in a good place for you as well; doubly so if you are like me and you recite out loud what it does and then proceed to cast a Treasure Cruise into it anyway. I guess technically I can say I was trying to clear the path in case I drew a Show and Tell, but regardless, it seems well-positioned if people are going to be running TC everywhere. I hope Zur's Weirding catches on too, because when that card is good, it's devastating.
    Thanks! TC is insane, so Charm being a counter for it is just a bonus. I too hope to create more confusion with Weirding.
    Last edited by btm10; 10-20-2014 at 02:37 PM.

  6. #946

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Can anyone find anything they don't like about Sam Roukas's list?

    19 LANDS
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Misty Rainforest
    12 CREATURES
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Tarmogoyf
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    29 INSTANTS and SORC.
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Treasure Cruise
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Spell Pierce
    3 Vendilion Clique
    1 Null Rod
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Toxic Deluge
    2 Disfigure
    2 Flusterstorm

    I'm thinking maybe cut a Thoughtseize for a maindeck Darkblast and leave the rest as is, I really like just about every card here. Should I be more worried about Blood Moon decks? I feel like that's the sacrifice to cutting the Thoughtseize. I also see some tension in the board plan against Death and Taxes, since you want both Jitte and Null Rod, but they both feel so impactful that they warrant slots. Lastly, I'm worried a out not respecting Burn enough but I don't know what constitutes a sufficient plan without watering down too many other matchups. What am I missing?

  7. #947

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I'm thinking maybe cut a Thoughtseize for a maindeck Darkblast and leave the rest as is, I really like just about every card here. Should I be more worried about Blood Moon decks? I feel like that's the sacrifice to cutting the Thoughtseize. I also see some tension in the board plan against Death and Taxes, since you want both Jitte and Null Rod, but they both feel so impactful that they warrant slots. Lastly, I'm worried a out not respecting Burn enough but I don't know what constitutes a sufficient plan without watering down too many other matchups. What am I missing?
    The deck doesn't have enough G to reliably activate ooze enough to make it better than goyf, so -1 ooze for 4th goyf is for sure.

    Otherwise, Deluge should also probably be something else. Biggest issues TA has outside of its truly difficult matchups like Elves are red spells and resolved JTMS. If you cut Thoughtseize and Deluge you should consider cards that help with either of those. Darkblast just isn't powerful enough for serious consideration.
    Great success!

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    So I was jamming this in a few games yesterday. It was practically goldfishing against a BR... Something reanimator. It wasn't a Blue deck, anyway. Looks strange, plays stranger.

    Creatures: 12
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    3 Tarmogoyf

    Spells: 28
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Daze
    2 Counterspell
    1 Dimir Charm
    1 Sultai Charm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Dig Through Time

    Lands: 20
    4 Wasteland
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    9 Fetchlands

    No real sideboard, but that will come in time. Initial thoughts: I'm probably better off looking into a non-Delver deck. Later thoughts: Delver is broken, why would I not want to play it?
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  9. #949

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Nice work Akatsuki for the 11th place finish. With zero discard did your combo match ups suffer any?

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

    If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.
    Gratz to your finish!
    How was Stifle for you instead of Discard?

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    The deck doesn't have enough G to reliably activate ooze enough to make it better than goyf, so -1 ooze for 4th goyf is for sure.

    Otherwise, Deluge should also probably be something else. Biggest issues TA has outside of its truly difficult matchups like Elves are red spells and resolved JTMS. If you cut Thoughtseize and Deluge you should consider cards that help with either of those. Darkblast just isn't powerful enough for serious consideration.
    I agree with all of this except that Darkblast isn't worth testing. If you're walking into a room full of X/1s and opposing Tarmogoyfs, it's pretty good. I don't know if it will make the cut in my list yet, but I do plan on testing it.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

    If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.
    Congrats on the placing! Did you like the Stifle build? Every time I've tested the deck, it seemed underpowered and clunky. But I've only done a few matches with it post-Khans, maybe that's changed.

    Was Chill effective vs. UR and UWR? Seems like BEB would be more versatile and better - it hits important combo cards as well as serves as a Vindicate for red creatures. Chill seems like a speed bump at best, and ineffective against the dangerous U cards at worst.
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

    If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.
    Top spot then top 16? Not too bad mate. Not to bad at all. Will agree with Manipulato and have to ask, how did the lack of discard treat you? You thinking its use us lessened by the new draw cards or Stifle something that you think is better placed overall?
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  14. #954

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.
    "Stifle is powerful when unexpected". I think that`s exactly the right thought about Stifle! If everybody would begin to play the Stifle version it would lose a bit of its power because people will play around it (like against RUG Delver).

    I think for a big turney at this moment Stifle is a great card, but most of the time I play smaller local events and after the 1st turney everybody would know about the "Tech".

    Thx for your answer.

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  16. #956

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Ran in a LGS GPT this past weekend taking it down with this and some help:

    4x Deathrite
    4x Delver
    4x Tarmogoyf
    3x Dark Confidant

    4x FOW
    4x Daze
    4x Abrupt Decay
    4x Ponder
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    1x Liliana OTV

    4x Wasteland
    4x Underground Sea
    2x Bayou
    1x Tropical Island
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Misty Rainforest

    SB

    2x V. Clique
    2x Graf. Cage
    1x Needle
    1x Toxic Deluge
    1x Golgari Charm
    3x Disfigure
    1x Sylvan Library
    1x K. Grip
    2x Spell Pierce
    1x Null Rod

    18 players 5 rds cut top 8

    Rd 1 - ANT
    Game 1 - Keep with good hand versus unknown opponent, lose on turn 3.
    Game 2 - Mull to find a better hand with force or pierce and daze or just Null Rod. Don't get one and lose a few on turn 3.
    (0-1)

    Rd 2 - Pox, non optimal build, but interesting
    Game 1 - I have lots of land and am able to keep playing threats off the top. He entombs a Vengeful Pharaoh, kills my goyf. He casts it next turn and I race with Delver until another goyf and deathrite join.
    Game 2 - I'm ahead the entire game and he dies shortly after
    (1-1)

    Rd 3 - Mono red Sneak the Breach
    Game 1 - I force his turn 2 blood moon after he casts COV for 1 off Seething Song. I already have a deathrite in play and Bob is coming to the party. Bob gains me the needed cards to stop any other attempts and to take out COV.
    Game 2 - I keep a mediocre hand with no force. He casts a turn 1 Blood Moon and I scoop.
    Game 3 - I keep another non force hand, but has deathrite and Brainstorm. I hold the deathrite. He plays Mountain go. I am able to see FOW, FOW, land at eot so even if he did try for a turn 1 blood moon I could stop it. Bob comes down, I then FOW his Sneak Attack. I land Deathrite, but am out of counters. He gets an infernal titan through taking out my team. I rip a tarmogoyf. InfTitan domes my for three and goyf trades as he's a 6/7. We both play draw go. He tries to B.Moon, but I am holding K.Grip and kill it. Delver comes with Pierce and FOW. Delver goes the distance.
    (2-1)

    Rd 4 - 4 color deathblade
    Game 1 - I am able to take control early as I won the die roll. I counter an early TNN and my threats keep coming even though they are getting swords. Bob is key once again this match.
    Game 2 - The board state at the end was him at 9 and I have Deathrite, Bob, Delver, against TNN and Creeping Tar Pit. I'm at 14. He decides to swing with just the Tar Pit as he's dead to my alpha if he swings with both. I go to 11 and put him to 7. Bob reveals FOW and killed me.
    Game 3 - I get control of the board again and clean up.
    (3-1)

    Rd 5 - ID

    Top 8
    Rd 1 - ANT
    I get paired against the guy from Rd 1 playing ANT
    Game 1 - He gets me early taking my only counter before going off.
    Game 2 - I mull to six to get a hand with counter/null rod. I miss. He again takes my early counter and I manage to win by luck as AdN from 15 sometimes doesn't get you there
    Game 3 - I have the perfect sculted hand to beat ANT and I do.

    Rd 2 - My friend playing U/R delver
    We already know the other pairing Miracles and RUG. We decide BUG has a better chance against either of those and I'm going to GP NJ. We play it out anyway and it comes down to game 3. He gets it, but still scoops

    Final - Miracles
    The Miracles player gets his opponent to scoop as he is also going to GP NJ.
    Game 1 - Utter blowout as he is stuck on lands and I crush
    Game 2 - I mull to 5 with the first 2 having no lands. He cleans up
    Game 3 - Hymn to Tourach sees the game as it hit his 3rd mana source and I wasted his Tundra in play then slam down needle on top. He is stuck on a single blue for turns and that is that.

    Prior to the tournament I was trying to decide on Treasure Cruise or not. My original build had two Tombstalkers and a second Lili, but I feel like I wanted more card draw and speed so I put in Bobs. TC provides card draw, but no instant threat. Delver already has a target on his head after he flips so I make my opponent choose which is more of a threat delver or bob. Could cruise have been great in some of my matches? Sure, it's a great card, but my plan against miracles never changes, be the fastest attack deck you can be.

  17. #957

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

    If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.
    I had a miserable night on Friday night going 1-2 with 0-2 to mana screw against Stoneblade and 1-2 inevitability against Merfolk. I did beat UR Delver for the third time though. I'm going to switch the list around a bit to deal with tribal. The losses to Elves were annoying but I figured every list has one really bad matchup. The loss to Merfolk kind of brought home how bad my list is against tribal.

    I guess we're still in a rock-paper-scissors meta even with Treasure Cruise to help things out.

  18. #958

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    So I was jamming this in a few games yesterday. It was practically goldfishing against a BR... Something reanimator. It wasn't a Blue deck, anyway. Looks strange, plays stranger.

    Creatures: 12
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    3 Tarmogoyf

    Spells: 28
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Daze
    2 Counterspell
    1 Dimir Charm
    1 Sultai Charm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Dig Through Time

    Lands: 20
    4 Wasteland
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    9 Fetchlands

    No real sideboard, but that will come in time. Initial thoughts: I'm probably better off looking into a non-Delver deck. Later thoughts: Delver is broken, why would I not want to play it?
    Yep on both counts. I'm not going to post lists at this point with the changes I'm making because Delver is out for now. But I'm having the same thoughts you are about Delver being too good not to play.

    I am looking at Delver and DRS and wondering if they're not too much of a good thing between them as cheap assets that are not hard to manage for the opponent. Great power but vulnerable to lots and not standing off against many mid-game finishers at this point. They both work well with Golgari Charm though.

  19. #959
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.
    Congrats on your finish. I was there but played Modern instead, as my Legacy legs are quite rusty these days, and poor Nimble Mongoose is now under a serious Ship-shaped Shadow. But I'm hoping to play Delver in some form at GP Jersey, and I'm always glad to see your name up in the top standings.

    My only question is, if you did cut Stifle for a tournament tomorrow, and assuming the metagame was going to be similar (Miracles, Delver, Combo, and some creatures), what would you replace it with? Hymn or Thoughtseize? Neither?

    Most likely, I will just jam Stifle in a month and call it a day. But I am curious what the best replacement would be in the current metagame. I'm not too high on Thoughtseize either, and I love Hymn but it seems worse in an Ancestral meta, and the only other options I can think of would be more countermagic, Snare and Pierce most likely. Anyway, just wanted your two cents. I'm pretty psyched to put your list together and start playing Brainstorm again, it's been awhile.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.
    I'm surprised it's still unexpected. Willey has top 8'd a few times with Stifle. That's a fair analysis of it though.

    I definitely agree that Thoughtseize is underpowered for the maindeck. It's fine against combo, but not backbreaking against the field like Hymn. So it seems to me the options are either Hymn or Stifle. Hymn is very solid against Miracles and Stoneforge (although less so against Death and Taxes), and I think it's more powerful overall. The mana cost and needing 2 Bayous is a real cost though.

    Well, we definitely agree on not bringing it in against UWR! Chill still just seems so narrow. I know people have suggested it before, but how about Jitte in the board? It's good against Burn, Elves, and fine against Delver.
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