[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[H]

I disagree that Stifle is strictly better than Hymn vs DnT. Having no cantrips to smooth their draw, while DnT generates consistency through redundancy, it's still fundamentally just reliant on whatever is randomly coming off the top of their library. Second, DnT also does not generate much card advantage. When you Hymn them, you both increase the inconsistency of their deck while also reducing their long term options (by generating card advantage for yourself).

Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck,

Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.

[Esper3k]

Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck,

Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.

Yeah, but it shows how scary Hymn is to them!

I usually board out my Lilianas vs DnT and leave in my Hymns just because it's still so powerful against them (even with the risk of Liege).

[H]

Yeah, but it shows how scary Hymn is to them!

I usually board out my Lilianas vs DnT and leave in my Hymns just because it's still so powerful against them (even with the risk of Liege).

I usually leave my Lilianas in. I always start by boarding out Force and I usually board out a number of Daze. I guess that might be incorrect though. I feel like Liliana is still decent versus them, since in post-board games they will usually try not to extend out into a Charm. I feel like the value of Daze really drops off versus them after turn 2 or so.

[Esper3k]

I usually leave my Lilianas in. I always start by boarding out Force and I usually board out a number of Daze. I guess that might be incorrect though. I feel like Liliana is still decent versus them, since in post-board games they will usually try not to extend out into a Charm. I feel like the value of Daze really drops off versus them after turn 2 or so.

It's been awhile since I've played the deck and the matchup, but I remembered ultimately not liking Liliana as much since they tend to have multiple crappy little creatures while at the same time you guarantee enable their WLL if they have it in their hand. On top of that, if they have Aether Vial active, I've found Liliana oftentimes still not very effective when you get them down to 0 cards in hand (they pop in their dude in response to your +1, etc.).

I might keep some Lilianas in if they have a particularly heavy Mirran Crusader build.

I remember boarding out my Lilianas and a mix of FoW/Dazes (depending on if I'm on the play or draw) and just bring in all the removal + Cliques + Krosan Grips I have from the board.

[btm10]

It's been awhile since I've played the deck and the matchup, but I remembered ultimately not liking Liliana as much since they tend to have multiple crappy little creatures while at the same time you guarantee enable their WLL if they have it in their hand. On top of that, if they have Aether Vial active, I've found Liliana oftentimes still not very effective when you get them down to 0 cards in hand (they pop in their dude in response to your +1, etc.).

I might keep some Lilianas in if they have a particularly heavy Mirran Crusader build.

I remember boarding out my Lilianas and a mix of FoW/Dazes (depending on if I'm on the play or draw) and just bring in all the removal + Cliques + Krosan Grips I have from the board.

My thoughts on this exactly. I tend to favor leaving in 1-2 Forces if I leave in countermagic at all, but I usually just turn into Jund with Delvers against D&T.

[Esper3k]

My thoughts on this exactly. I tend to favor leaving in 1-2 Forces if I leave in countermagic at all, but I usually just turn into Jund with Delvers against D&T.

Yup. Blue Jund is exactly how I like to play it too. Just try and get them to where they're in topdeck mode and let our more consistent deck (go go Brainstorm/Ponder) take it from there.

[edahl]

I took my above list to a local tournament. I went 1-1-1 against RUG, Miracles, and DTT control respectively so not a great showing. I felt like I may have been able to win the draw against miracles, but it went to time. Against DTT control I was unlucky with mulligans and made a huge derp that tilted away the rest of my game. I seem to have problems with control, though my newly acquired Clique seemed strong. It may be that I simply make mistakes in longer games, but I don't feel confident with sideboarding and general game plan either. How do you guys approach the match-up? How would you side? Got any good reference matches on video, or articles?

[drocker23]

Maybe it's different because I was playing miracles, but whenever I played the DnT matchup, I would leave Force of Will in so I could counter mainly Aether Vial. because my deck couldn't really do much in the way of Vial and Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's different with Delver, but I hope that helps some.

[Asthereal]

Maybe it's different because I was playing miracles, but whenever I played the DnT matchup, I would leave Force of Will in so I could counter mainly Aether Vial. because my deck couldn't really do much in the way of Vial and Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's different with Delver, but I hope that helps some.

Very different. Miracles has CounterTop, and so countering Vial is much more important.
For us it's a completely different decision tree.

[H]

I took my above list to a local tournament. I went 1-1-1 against RUG, Miracles, and DTT control respectively so not a great showing. I felt like I may have been able to win the draw against miracles, but it went to time. Against DTT control I was unlucky with mulligans and made a huge derp that tilted away the rest of my game. I seem to have problems with control, though my newly acquired Clique seemed strong. It may be that I simply make mistakes in longer games, but I don't feel confident with sideboarding and general game plan either. How do you guys approach the match-up? How would you side? Got any good reference matches on video, or articles?

I'm not sure what DTT control is but versus Miracles game 1 can be very rough. If they start on Top you will probably lose that game. If you notice it slipping away, just scoop, you'll need the time to win game 2 and 3.

In the post-board games, it really depends on what you have brought in. You must lock down Top. Without it, they are not a not-so-good control deck, since their options are much more limited. This is why I play Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Winter Orb. I also play every game as if Terminus is on the top of their library. In other words, I will limit myself to one creature at a time, never offering the 2-1. If you play Liliana and/or Library, these are priorities to land. They only play a couple answers to either and a sequence that lets you resolve a Delver, into Library, into Lili can be game winning, although it is still a grind. I try to save my counters for Entreat, because we can draw more threats after a Terminus, but a sizable Entreat is almost certainly game.

In the end, it's about being patient. If you try to rush to kill them, they almost certainly will get you. You have to expect at least one Terminus every game. It's also about diverse threats, which is why Library and Liliana are so important. It is easy for them to dig to an answer to a single type of threat (Creature, Enchantment, Planeswalker) but if they have to answer 2 or 3 of those types, they are nowhere near as efficient.

Without knowing you list it's hard to give more detailed advice. I am also, not exactly an expert, but the matchup should favor us post-board, but can be very swingy when cards like Blood Moon enter the equation.

[Esper3k]

DTT control, I guess would be the Golddigger deck?

Against D&T, if we remove almost all our countermagic, we don't care too much about Aether Vial since we're on the "kill-all-their-guys" plan.

Also, if you do care, we can always Abrupt Decay it instead of 2 for 1ing ourselves.

[edahl]

Ah DTT control might not be so established yet, it's the U/W list by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ore-Gifts.html. Also, thanks for the tips! I there were some essential differences to my play, I often try to rush to kill with catastrophic consequences. My list is on the previous page, though I'll go back to something closer to Jim Davis' list, cutting Liliana in the main for TNN (dropping the Bayou) and the Liliana in the board for Sylvan Library. Should help! I'll definitely also end my matches earlier when I feel like it's slipping because time is without exception an issue for me.

[Star|Scream]

Hey guys I'd really like to get better with this deck, but there's not a lot of legacy physically near me. So I'd like to test on Cockatrice. If anyone wants to test please pm me!! I'm available after 6pm EST

also see http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ght=cockatrice

[H]

Ah DTT control might not be so established yet, it's the U/W list by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ore-Gifts.html. Also, thanks for the tips! I there were some essential differences to my play, I often try to rush to kill with catastrophic consequences. My list is on the previous page, though I'll go back to something closer to Jim Davis' list, cutting Liliana in the main for TNN (dropping the Bayou) and the Liliana in the board for Sylvan Library. Should help! I'll definitely also end my matches earlier when I feel like it's slipping because time is without exception an issue for me.

OK, I was thinking that might be what you were talking about, but I wasn't sure. I think the same principle applies though, generally.

I liken it as, "play quick, but don't be in a hurry." If that makes any sense,

You need to establish some kind of inevitability. By staggering your threats, you can apply consistent pressure, because if you give them time, they are going to end up locking you out with Jace or something. Cutting Liliana for a TNN will definitely hurt your matchup versus Miracles. Liliana is great, because they run so few answers to a Planeswalker and she given you inevitability with her ultimate. True-Name can dodge StP, but still gets swept up by Terminus. I can't even begin to explain how great Library is. When then Swords a Goyf and you just go and draw 2 cards to replace him, they are in a bad spot.

[Esper3k]

Creeping Tar Pit is also a card some people will play to help with the Miracles matchup. Just make sure you don't run it into Terminus or StP if you can help it.

For me, I actually like TNN quite a bit against them since it allows you to drop just 1 threat on the board and you just force them to either Terminus it away or die.

As others have mentioned, to me their biggest threat is Top. It negates all our hand disruption and sets up their Miracles. If you can stop the Top, you significantly cripple their main strategy and the consistency of their deck.

[btm10]

Creeping Tar Pit is also a card some people will play to help with the Miracles matchup. Just make sure you don't run it into Terminus or StP if you can help it.

For me, I actually like TNN quite a bit against them since it allows you to drop just 1 threat on the board and you just force them to either Terminus it away or die.

As others have mentioned, to me their biggest threat is Top. It negates all our hand disruption and sets up their Miracles. If you can stop the Top, you significantly cripple their main strategy and the consistency of their deck.

I'd go so far as to say that Miracles is the biggest reason to run TNN at all in the Hymn version. I actually like Tar Pit even if I'm running TNN because you're likely to end up in the midgame even when you win and want all of your expensive spells (TNN, Clique, Liliana) and really don't want to tap out in the face of Miracles' Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms or take down your own Pierces/Flusters because of how important Jace and Entreat are. As far as counters, I'm torn about whether I want an MD Pierce or Dimir Charm, and Miracles and Shardless are really the only arguments for the Charm. While we're talking about Miracles, I've said this before, but it bears repeating - Zur's Weirding (out of the board, obviously) is an absolute house against them, especially if you're running Hymn. It's also got utility in A+B combo matchups (slower ones like Sneak and Show or Omni, not so much against Reanimator) and against decks like MUD or 12Post. I wouldn't run Weirding unless my meta were 25%+ Miracles though, as it is pretty narrow.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings,

I played in my LGS Legacy locals this week. I when 4-1 and ended 4th getting edged out of 3rd on tiebreakers. I played against Dan with 12 Post (2-0), Bobby with Sneak and Show (2-1), John with BUG Delver (0-2), Adam with Esper Stoneblade (2-1) and Guss with 12 Post (2-0). Overall the deck felt decent. Here is the list that I ran for reference:

Maindeck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique


Overall the list felt fine. The mirror match that I lost was likely due to keeping greedy hands. I kept 1-landers with cantrips and was Wasted both games. I was able to play a bit more in game two but after getting my opponent into topdeck mode, he drew live while I drew lands. I think this type of configuration is powerful, but the more I test out changes to my disruption package, the more I feel that I want a configuration of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and possibly Thoughtseize. Hymn to Tourach just always feels lackluster to me. Prime example, the game that I lost in the Sneak and Show match, I resolve Hymn and hit a Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack. I die on the next turn to his remaining two cards and topdeck. On the topic of Tasigur, I cast him 4 times over the course of the evening and activated his ability once. I was given a Daze back and it was nearly dead... but it is fuel for either Brainstorm or Force of Will. I think I still need to do more testing but at the moment I am not sure if he is better or worse than Dark Confidant. I know that these two cards fill differing roles...

Card Advantage --- Middle Ground --- Aggressive
Dark Confidant --- Tasigur --- Goyf.

Tasigur hedges between the two options of Confidant and Goyf. I don't think that there is one single right answer, I think it comes down to how you build your deck and moreover I am not sure in my ideal configuration which option will prove to be better. What I am confident about is that I will need to keep playing Legacy to figure it out. Anyway, thanks for reading and I look forward to any comments!

[Fallacy]

Anyone playing Tombstalker these days (instead of Tasigur)? Seems good in the mirror against opposing Tasigur's, goyfs, and in general a real problem if left unchecked. He's got me out of many a games... thinking about bringing him off the bench :)

[H]

Anyone playing Tombstalker these days (instead of Tasigur)? Seems good in the mirror against opposing Tasigur's, goyfs, and in general a real problem if left unchecked. He's got me out of many a games... thinking about bringing him off the bench :)

I've played Tombstalker on and off, here and there. I rarely have a problem, except the usual grave-hate, Jace, and StP. His flying is always relevant as there are no creatures that are really played that can outclass him in the air.

[Griselpuff]

Went 7-2 in Baltimore, losing to Bant (bad luck imho, I beat it online) and Elves (bad match-up, didn't have enough SB cards).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=80729

I also 4-0'd two Dailies with the same 75. Should see one of the video series on CFB soon. Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too. I'm still utterly convinced that Hymn >>> Stifle. People also kept playing around Stifle against me, which is all the more reason not to play it.