I'm not saying I completely disagree with you as I haven't testing to determine if a stifle build or hymn build is better in terms of BUG Delver running TC. However, I think you're over emphasizing how dead hymn can be. If pretty much every Delver deck is going to run TC, Hymn will actually be less dead than usual since people will still have cards in hand going into the late game with everyone reloading with TC. From what testing I've done Hymn actually helps you fight oppossing TC's without running narrow graveyard hate. Whether the stifle build or the tapout hymn build is better at running treasure cruise, more testing and tournament results will be needed for that so I'll leave that to the future to decide.
This is the list I tested initially:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dimir Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
I was only happy with the results because the friend I was testing with was playing RUG and really unhappy with his results. I replaced a couple of situational counters and clique with Treasure Cruise initially. I would not take Ponders out of an 18 land list. I think that's one of the keys here. Ponder is very hard to replace in the shell without bumping the lands up some. It was hard not to put a singleton Dimir Charm in also because the third ability is relevant in a Delve list and it's a way to randomly screw with Miracles also, which is a nice bonus.
This is what I wound up at after 5 or 6 matches:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay - 4th will be in SB
2 Disfigure
1 Dimir Charm - 2 Golgari Charm in the SB
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise - still not sure on this, played 1 and 2 and not sure which is better
2 Life from the Loam - fills the GY again fast for Goyf and DRS, makes wastelock a possibility and gets back Volrath's
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Disclaimer: I will try to fit Volrath's into any Loam shell that has really good creatures that might get milled by. It tested ok in 2 matches but it is a 19 land list and I'm pretty likely to remove it again if I start seeing it in the opening 3 draws too often.
I'm intrigued by Treasure Cruise as well, although I have yet to jam as many games with it as I would like. Is it reasonable to cut 2x Tombstalker, 1x Abrupt Decay (to board) from the stock list for 3 Treasure Cruise? Four seems too many and two seems to few, at least in my initial testing. Card's bonkers good though :)
I'm not loving 3+ T.Cruises in this deck. I've already ended up with 2 situations (in not many games) where I had 2 stuck in my hand and not enough resources between mana and graveyard to cast either of them efficiently. These games were against opposing Deathrites (not uncommon in Legacy). So with those results combined with that fact that RIP now will make more of our cards dead, I'm sticking with 2 for now. That being said when I'm in topdeck mode with no cards in hand it's always the card I want to draw. Also, I still believe that in the cantrippy and completely graveyard independent decks (ie UR or UWR delver) this could be a 3 of since they won't expect or really care about a card like RIP .
I would only run one in this version of delver TBH. It will always be difficult to handle in multiples, so why not just have one? Not consistent, but it's not a consistent card.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I'll just chime in to add one more vote to the pro-Treasure-Cruise camp. 4 Cruise felt great in a variety of matchups, although there were a few games where drawing 3 of them in the early game was indeed awkward - never had problems finding uses for 2 early cruises with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Forces in the maindeck. It might be better to just run 3 instead of 4 to mitigate this, but it's good enough that it might be better to just run 4.
If this catches on and Cruise becomes as ubiquitous as Force of Will or something, then I think that Tarmogoyf's value will indeed be severely hit. I'm not sure what BUG will do then. It might be good to think about Young Pyromancer shells at that point (U/R or four-color).
Or Grixis so we can still run Deathrite Shaman, unless that's what you mean by four color with green just being for DRS life gain in the main deck I'm on the fence about treasure cruise, though I'm leaning towards the pro treasure cruise camp. I think Deathrite Shaman is still infinitely playable if TC becomes ubiquitous but unsure about what happens to Goyf in that type of environment. Having Goyf in a TC mirror can really suck sometimes.
Goyf is never going to be bad. It's possible you'll have some matches where you want to side him out but odds are good you'll also have things you really want in for those matches.
I win games through RiP all the time as this is one of the sideboard strategies that D&T uses against BUG and Jund. RiP theoretically shuts down Goyf and DRS (and Punishing Fire in Jund) but really it just makes both lists do other things for a few turns until they've found Abrupt Decay. If a list wants to durdle around for a few turns instead of killing me I'm really happy to do that with either BUG or Jund. Thalia and Thalia #2 really suck. Mother of Runes active really sucks. RiP just sits there waiting for me to find an answer.
Hi guys!
I would like to bring BUG Delver to a big tournament Italy, then from 9 rounds, only it was a while since I played it, exactly when she left True Name Nemesis, in fact I played the list of classical Signorini, so many 4x, 2 and Stalker the sylvan library!
Now I see that the list has changed from how I remembered it! Stifle and spell pierce in place of hymn and Liliana of main! Then confidant and nemesis replace the stalker!
So the list of Signorini has become obsolete? if the answer is "yes" what would be a list ideal for testing and to lead to a big tournament?
Signorini's list is not really obsolete. People are still playing tapout style BUG Delver with Hymns and Lilianas. It's just that there have also been Stifle lists doing well recently since people are starting to play it a little more. Here are some links to recent successful lists of both variations for you to explore your options:
Traditional Tapout style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14600&iddeck=107907
More Draw-Go with Stifle style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861
The Hymn lists are generally stronger against tribal since Stifle is pretty mediocre against Merfolk and Elves. It's okay against Goblins. The Stifle lists seems naturally better against Miracles since Stifle and Dark Confidant and to an extent TNN are strong against that deck. The Stifle list also seems to be strong in the mirror since you have so many threats, more than traditional Team America lists. The Stifle lists are noticeably a little softer to TNN since you don't have a main deck answer to a resolved TNN like the Hymn lists do in Liliana. All and all, I think both lists are good in most competitive metagames. In the current general meta the stifle list might be better, but the hymn list is perfectly fine as well. Both lists offer the pilot a lot of play and customization so if you know the metagame you are going in you should be able to prepare pretty well regardless of the type of list you choose to run. At that point you might just want to ask yourself which fits your playstyle better.
It's also worth mentioning that you don't have to choose one or the other - there are lists that run both, which is what I personally prefer. For example:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8192&d=247191
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245814&f=LE
It's really hard to run Hymn to Tourach and Stifle in the same list. They're both potentially dead draws late that don't do anything real to the board. Add in Daze, which is dead late most of the time and the cantrips and you have too much dead air in the list late and not enough business. Brainstorming to find a Hymn or a Stifle or a Daze usually sucks in the endgame.
Stifle, Wasteland, and Hymn all keep your opponent on the early game, though. There is no midgame when your opponent isn't able to get past the second/third turn properly. You cast waste a lot of time in the midgame digging, as your opponent MUST find lands, and keeping an extra Stifle around at this point cuts them onto around half of their Lands, if not more, still being dead draws.
It's also worth noting that Stifle is a generally good utility card. It can do things besides stop fetchlands. I've stifled Stoneforge Mystic triggers, Cascade triggers, Suspend triggers, Craterhoof Behemoth triggers, etc. and been happy to do so. It is not totally dead in the late game. Hymn is also not totally dead in the late game. Everyone gets excited about the 2-for-1, but sometimes, stripping the 1 answer in their hand that they've been holding on to is enough. Moreover, if everyone is on the TC plan, it will have targets later than usual.
This argument, however, is somewhat academic now that TC is a thing. The question that is really relevant is whether running Stifle at all is worth it given how synergistic Hymn+Liliana+TC is. Diluting that even a little bit like the hybrid Stifle+Hymn lists did might just be bad now.
Thanks for the good answer!
I'm Very Impressed with stifle/tnn/pierce/ confi list!
Before I Tried the deck and seems really strong, has a lot of possible plays to do in the same turn!
But I do not understand A thing: what style of game we need to use? Example:
We are on the play against unknown deck:
In our hands there are shaman, stifle and spell pierce! What's the better choise to do?
Inviato da mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Stifle, Wasteland and Hymn don't do a lot to change the board in your favor when you draw them later on. Neither do any of the counters we run. The cantrips help a bit but they can also whiff for you.
3 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Hymn
10 counters
8 cantrips
That's 28 draws that are highly conditional late.
RUG has 4 Lightning Bolts instead of Abrupt Decay. Those bolts manage just about every creature threat that decay does with the exception of Goyf (an important exception). The bolts also finish games fairly often. They also have 2 additional burn that accentuates their reach in the mid-game.
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
10 counters
8 cantrips
That's their 26 highly conditional late draws. When we're in Stifle and Hymn mode we're actually no better than RUG in the mid to late game. We do have 4 ways to remove Goyf and that's a pretty big deal but we also have 2 more fairly dead draws overall. We don't have the reach that RUG has with the direct damage.
When we're in that mode we're barely as good as them in the early game. Hymn is a wrecker and that's the only reason it's close. We can't kill mana dorks as well as they can. We have to tap out for Hymn, which will turn off Stifle the following turn. We can't double bolt to finish after protecting Delver for the 3 turns needed to get the opponent to death's doorstep.
This is just an opinion, but I believe that when BUG Delver tries to wreck the early game with both Stifle and Hymn it's even more of a glass cannon than RUG and it doesn't win as consistently. I believe that the value in BUG Delver is that it can potentially blow the opponent out early with a good opening grip but it has a very good mid-game to it as well. It can win once the game gets to turn 5 or 6 and the initial exchanges are over and nobody won off of them. RUG usually cannot do that.
Greetings!
I have a short report for Legacy locals this week. The crew this week was Dragonslayer_90, btm10, and myself. There was a low turn out of 9 players this week so we had 4 rounds. I played the same list as my prior post (. I got the round 1 Bye, then won my match against Ryosuke playing 12Post (2-0), lost to btm10 playing BUG Delver (1-2), and drew with Dragonslayer_90 who was testing out a BUG Control deck (1-1-1;0-0-3). The final standings were btm10, me, and Dragonslayer_90 in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Pretty decent night for our car!
I got to (again) resolve Zur's Weirding against my 12Post opponent in the sideboarded game. This card is the real deal people. If you are expecting 12Post and/or Miracles this card makes it somewhere between very hard and impossible for them to win. I would wager it is reasonable in slower combo decks that aren't incrementally attacking your life total. So might be worth trying against Sneak and Show, Omnitell, High Tide, and other storm variants... probably not so good against decks like Burn. Otherwise the build felt good. I lost the mirror likely due to both losing the initial die roll and bricking off like a champ (drawing all the lands). btm10 cast three Dazes against me in game 1. The first countered a Hymn to Tourach the second was paid for and immediately followed by a third to counter a Tarmogoyf. So even in this 3-for-2 interaction that left me ahead on the board as far as lands, I was just never able to stick something meaningful. Oh well, we will try again next week. Thanks for reading!
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
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