[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks for the good answer!
I'm Very Impressed with stifle/tnn/pierce/ confi list!


Before I Tried the deck and seems really strong, has a lot of possible plays to do in the same turn!

But I do not understand A thing: what style of game we need to use? Example:

We are on the play against unknown deck:
In our hands there are shaman, stifle and spell pierce! What's the better choise to do?


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In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.

[spector14]

In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.

Now I have finished to read the
Primer! :)

I'm testing a Lot This list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861

But I want made some changes:

Md:

-1 ponder +1 FOW

-1 confidant +1 sylvan library

Side:

-1 fow. + library (if we don't take out 1 confidant)

-1 needle. +1 krosan

-1 divert. +1 surgical

-1 arcane laboratory. +1 flusterstorm

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!




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[FoolofaTook]

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.

[venice]

Hey guys!

I played another local event today going 4-0-2, 3rd place. I tryed a new maindeck configuration feat. 2 Treasure Cruise and I can only confirm what other people here already mentioned: that card is AWESOME! For those of you, who still have doubts about the card, I can only say you should give it a try. I was sceptical about it at first, too. But when you see the card in actual play scenarios you will realize how much power it adds to your mid- to lategame. Don´t be afraid of the "nombo" with DRS and Goyf which you would expect it to have. To be honest: it doesn´t even matter at all, since you always get to choose when and how to cast it.

Anyways, my MUs today where:

R1: Mirror Win 2-0
R2: Mirror Win 2-1
R3: Sneak Show ID (played a good friend of mine and since the tournament was a trial for Prague Eternal, we both opted for the possibility to go 5-0-1 to get the byes, thus we IDed)
R4: Miracles Win 2-1
R5: Miracles Draw 1-1-1
R6: Grixis Delver Win 2-1

Since I only played 2 copies of Treasure Cruise today, I got to play it only 4 times throughout the whole tournament. However, 4 times it resolved and all 4 games were consequent wins afterwards. I had 2 resolved in the Mirror Match; after trading spells/creatures 1for1 until both our resources were exhausted, drawing into TC gave me such a boost midgame, that my opponents could not keep up with (they didn´t play TC today, yet). Also against Miracles it was huge to have. I even resolved 2 Cruises in one turn...

The thing I am still unsure about is what would be the "right" cards to cut for Treasure Cruise. My list today looked like this:

Maindeck:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Null Rod

So compared to my last built, I just switched 2 Ponder in favour of 2 Treasure Cruise. Granted, that feels a little odd at first and I am still unsure if that´s the way to go forward for me. However, cutting down on threats is honestly no option for me, since I feel that a high threat-density is what makes Treasure Cruise so valuable in the first place. Cutting down on lands is no option either since with 4 TNN, my list is pretty mana-heavy already. That leaves us with disruption and cantrips. The disruption suite is what makes Team America what it is, so I don´t see a good point in cutting cards in that section of the deck either. That logic leaves us with the only option of cutting down on cantrips. And in comparison Ponder vs Brainstorm of course favours BS...thus I cut the Ponders.

I would be really interested to see, how others, who have been advocating Cruise as well, have restructured their builts. I feel going forward, that is one of the most important questions to answer for future deckbuilding with TA, thus I am very intrigued to discuss different approaches with you guys.

[Dragonslayer_90]

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!

I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

[FoolofaTook]

I like 1 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard. It's graveyard hate but also occasionally the possibility of a blowout win when you run into a list that is really dependent on having a particular card and has no redundancy for it. Being playable for phyrexian mana makes it an always available spell when it's in your hand.

[iostream]

Well, Bob Huang just won the NJ SCG Open with UR Delver running 4 Treasure Cruise, and commented in the postgame interview that he thinks it's an auto 4-of in every Delver variant. Hopefully this gets the discussion more focused on how we actually build the deck to maximize TC's potential rather than questioning whether it's good in the first place.

[eostby]

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

[rancOr_]

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

[eostby]

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

What did you pull from the main board to fit them in?

[ivanpei]

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

[eostby]

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

[ivanpei]

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

I hate spell piece in this deck. You already have hymn force and daze. Disruption overload is not great especially since this deck tries to tap out every turn. Spell piece should be the first to go, then maybe trim a ponder for the cruises 1-2 TNN should be sufficient.

[wcm8]

3 or 4 Treasure Cruise in Team America: that is the question.

To start with, let's talk about this weekend's SCG Open winning decklist that ran the full playset. Consider how Bob Huang's UR Delver list functioned: 12 threats, 17 lands, and a TON of cards that he can play in quick succession to fill the graveyard faster than any deck aside from Dredge-types. Gitaxian Probe is a card that is worth running in his deck for several reasons: its information is useful, UR is ALWAYS the beatdown so 2-life is generally irrelevant, and beyond fueling TC it also powers up Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear. But it's not something that I'd personally find worth running in BUG just to help fuel Treasure Cruise.

BUG Delver is playing much more midrangey strategy. Yes, we will end up with many cards in the graveyard, but not nearly at the same pace as Bob's UR deck. We have a higher curve, 3 colors and run Wasteland, so 19 lands is about the lowest amount we can justify running. Many of our cards are slower and/or more situational. For example, we can't just fling Abrupt Decay to the face for 3 damage. This leads me to believe that running only 3 copies of Treasure Cruise is probably more realistic in this deck. It also seems that way in testing, where Cruise gets stranded slightly more often than playtesting with UR or UWr Delver.

My basic proposed list:

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

Alternatively, you could cut a land and play 4 Thoughtseize instead of Hymn as your discard option. But I still see Hymn being the superior card outside of metagames with a lot of combo and Stoneforge decks. You could also play around with running additional removal, utility, or threats in this area. Or just get greedy, cut the 20th land and run the full playset of Hymn.

I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .

[iostream]

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

This is actually the exact 60 I ran at the Open yesterday. It performed quite well, but I made terrible blunders in 3 different matches. If I did not leave my brain at home yesterday, I think things would have worked out better. It's certainly a good starting point

I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

Mann (who ran this) said in his top 8 interview that Sultai Charm was garbage for him all day and that he sided it out every single game 2. I think we should be skeptical.

I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

This sounds a little tricky - how often do we have 4 mana up on our opponent's turn? We tap out quite a lot in the early and mid-game. It seems to me that Thief can't consistently hit our opponent's first Cruise - maybe it can stop late-game Cruises, though. I'm not sure if it's worth a slot.

Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

Do we need an effect like Library at all given how strong Cruise is? I think Cruise gives us enough card advantage that we can use that sideboard slot for something else.

I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .

Agreed. If you haven't been packing at least 2 Disfigure and 2 Charm, now is the time to start. Zuran Orb is a fun idea given that it is free, and it allows us to turn our redundant lands into more Cruise food. I like the Orb idea better than Jitte since the decks Jitte would be strongest against (besides UR) are the Jitte decks themselves (like Merfolk, Death and Taxes, etc) - Null Rod and Pithing Needle are extremely powerful versus these decks, and it would feel bad to nonbo yourself.

I'll note that Punishing Fire and Life From The Loam are also natural responses to an increase in Delver decks and so it might be worth packing a little extra hate for that, too. Diversifying the graveyard hate to include a Surgical Extraction or a Nihil Spellbomb would be helpful. Diabolic Edict isn't bad either here, as many such decks run the Depths/Stage combo. It would obviously be reasonable to side in versus Sneak/Show.

[Sturtzilla]

wcm8, I was going to post my opinions to the above comments. You however beat me to it. I think your analysis on both UR Delver and BUG Delver is spot on. We cannot fill the graveyard as quickly and running cards to do that dilutes the power of our deck. I really like the look of your proposed list. I think it is lean and a good starting point to rigorously test Treasure Cruise. The problem with running only one or two being you may not draw them enough to gauge accurately if it is good or not. I am probably going to give your list a try tomorrow night at locals.

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

[wcm8]

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

Regarding Sylvan Library: maybe it isn't worth the sideboard slot, but the card *is* nuts against anything packing Swords to Plowshares and durdly combo/control. Since STP decks will also likely bringing in Rest in Peace to null your Cruises/creatures, Library is justifiably still a strong option. I agree though, room is an issue, and I personally like to run 1 Jace TMS in the SB for those sort of matchups.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts.

[Sturtzilla]

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts.

Yea I think maybe as a one-of in the board it might be worth trying out. I had only been considering the primary mode for creature destruction. You are correct that the second mode catches two of the four creatures that I listed. So really it is a pretty solid all around spell. The fact that it has a cmc of three might make it a touch sluggish. I don't think I would want it in the main.... but it certainly fills a number of rolls that we may want access to in the board.

[spector14]

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.

I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

Thanks for your answers.
I think that will cut the third spell pierce.

About TC, I think 2 is the correct number, because unlike UR, we have 8 cards that have synergy with our graveyard!
having said that, a good configuration of the deck to be tested could be this:

Creatures [14]
2 True Name-Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [21]
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze


Sorceries [6]
4 Ponder
2 TC

Lands [19]
1 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

[eostby]

I think I've found a way to fit the Treasure Cruise package into my already existing build, but I may be trying to hard to force the new tech in.

My updated list:

Lands - 20
4 USea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
4 Wasteland
3/3/3 Fetches

Creatures - 13
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Goyf
1 TNN
1 V-Clique

Sorceries - 10
4 Hymn
3 Ponder
3 TC

Instants - 16
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm

Planeswalker - 1
1 Liliana

Sideboard:
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stream of Unconsciousness (I know, I'm going way too deep on this one, but I want to give it a try as the 8th power for Goyfs)
1x Sylvan Library
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Treasure Cruise

What I changed
To get to this from my previous iteration of the list, I moved a Goyf and the Library to the board and cut a Ponder main, 2 Spell Pierces and a Thoughtseize from the side, and split 3-1 on the Treasure Cruises. I haven't gotten to test this yet, but it feels fine as a starting point.