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Thread: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

  1. #201

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    @Einherjer: I think you did make your points clear enough for me to agree with you. I appreciate the analysis and justification from a fundamental perspective. I'll keep your advice in mind next time I play against miracles.
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  2. #202
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning View Post
    I don't think that was his point, either; it, rather, was that your arguments for the Miracles matchup was a weak one. And indeed it was--just giving up on a matchup that will obviously be common at the higher tables is asinine.

    It's difficult. Yes. Both sides have decent tools for the other, and decent answers for the other's threats, but neither have a real trump either (at least in game one), and that's the point--it comes down to skill and luck, the latter of which is mitigated by the former.

    I guess my point is not to take this so serious. You have an opinion that others strongly disagree with. Sometimes that makes you wrong (as I, no offense, think you are on this matter) and sometimes it makes you right. DRS and Charm had a period of time in which they were considered bad (charm much more than DRS) and obviously that mass opinion has changed.

    Just roll with the punches, man
    I think that is exactly his point after name calling and thereafter his disregard.

    Anyways, Thanks Matt for your insight.

    This is how I'm doing it now

    19 lands

    creatures
    4 goyf
    4 delver
    2 bobs
    4 drs

    spells
    3 fow
    2 disfigure
    4 daze
    4 thoughtseize
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    4 abrupt decay

    misc.
    1 library
    1 lily

    Sideboard
    2 golgari charm
    1 disfigure
    2 spell pierce
    1 envelope
    1 krosan grip
    1 null rod
    1 pithing needle
    1 clique
    1 lily
    1 force of will
    1 cage
    2 surgical

    The boarding plan -4 daze, -2 disfigure, 1 goyf, 2 thoughtseize, 1 decay,
    In, 1 grip, 1 lily, 1 spell pierce, 1 envelope, 1 force, 1 null, 1 needle, 2 golgari charm, 1 clique

    I don't think the boarding is horrendous to fight this matchup. I can certainly play 4 sinkholes, 2 winter orb/bitterblossom, 1 zur's weilding, but what do i take out from the board that wouldn't hurt my other matchups? I dont' think you can and that was the point with the original post.

    My priority list of counters
    1. Top - especially if i don't have my hate yet and its in the first 2 turns
    2. countering my hate against top.
    3. Bloodmoon
    4. jace
    5. entreat

    Things i do not bother countering, terminus, plow, creatures, RIP

    I dont' think my plan is that off when playing them, but i can never beat them consistently...a 40-45% win rate.

  3. #203
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    19 lands

    creatures
    4 goyf
    4 delver
    2 bobs -> Even though I love Bob, Kobe, I think I might actually turn this into TNN if you're really wanting to eek Miracles. Leaving Terminus as their only out seems slightly stronger.
    4 drs

    spells
    3 fow
    2 disfigure
    4 daze
    4 thoughtseize
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    4 abrupt decay

    misc.
    1 library
    1 lily

    Sideboard
    2 golgari charm
    1 disfigure
    2 spell pierce
    1 envelope
    1 krosan grip
    1 null rod
    1 pithing needle
    1 clique
    1 lily
    1 force of will
    1 cage
    2 surgical
    My test board for this deck in my gauntlet is like:

    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Disfigure (since I have zero maindeck)
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sylvan Library
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Liliana of the Veil

    The boarding plan -4 daze, -2 disfigure, 1 goyf, 2 thoughtseize, 1 decay,
    In, 1 grip, 1 lily, 1 spell pierce, 1 envelope, 1 force, 1 null, 1 needle, 2 golgari charm, 1 clique
    I think I would do this:

    -2 Wasteland, -2 Disfigure, -4 Daze, -1 Goyf,
    +1 Winter Orb, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Clique, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Liliana of the Veil

    I'll try to explain my reasoning here.

    -Wasteland, as said by others, is slightly no bueno. Plus, I'm running a 20 land build just for stability game 1 and allowing me to pull out more stuff in games 2 and 3.
    -Disfigure is horrid against Miracles, you're totally right.
    -Daze isn't great, especially since I know that as a Miracles player, I have the time to play around Daze by just playing lands and passing.
    -Goyf is the worst card against Rest in Peace. He's still a threat when RIP is not online, but a 0/1 is plain bad. At least DRS swings for one. However, I wouldn't want to decrease my threat density much more than this.

    -Winter Orb can be pretty fantastic at slowing Miracles down. It comes down early, and it stalls them since Topping is their one untap, and they have to wait to cast their ballbreaking spells like, say, Verdict, Jace, Entreat, etc. Plus, I have a Mint Alpha copy, so....you know The card is also excellent against Jund, since they want tons of mana for their Punishing Fire combo.
    -Null Rod is excellent against all the equipment decks, and obviously against Top and EE in Miracles. It's very hard for them to remove.
    -Pithing Needle their Top or Jace, and has play against SnT and basically every other deck.
    -Sylvan is good in any control matchup and the mirror. It digs you out of so many holes. I'm in love with this card.
    -Krosan Grip does double duty against Equipment and Top/Counterbalance.
    -Clique is doing work against the Miracle trigger, Combo, SFM, and Show and Tell.
    -Spell Pierce I like bringing in here because Miracles players don't see it game 1 and won't necessarily be able to play around it Game 2. Miracles is a fatiguing deck. Use that to your advantage. Maybe you get to get a Top that they try to cast on Turn 2, or their Jace, or whatever. Or, they slow down enough so you can capitalize on their slowed position and you can hopefully overrun them.
    -Liliana, I can agree with, won't win you a game against Jace since even if you ultimate, they'll keep Jace-sealing you. However, being able to blow up all their lands if need be and continue the discard-train could be very good. I'd rather have the extra edge than not. It also helps nuke snapcasters in case you need to alpha in.



    Suffice to say, it looks like I'm overboarding for Miracles, but in reality, I just have cards that overlap with the matchup in positive ways.

    -Matt

  4. #204

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Scrubbed out, 0-3 (2-6) last night...

    List
    4x Delver
    4x DRS
    3x Goyf
    1x TNN
    2x Bob

    2x Lili

    3x FoW
    4x Daze
    3x Ponder
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Hymn
    3x AD
    2x Disfigure

    20 Lands

    SB:
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Envelop
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Flusterstorm
    1x V Clique
    1x FoW
    1x submerge
    1x thoughtseize
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Golgari Charm
    1x AD
    1x Sylvan
    1x Krosan Grip

    round 1: Turbo Eldrazi

    I know I am playing Turbo Eldrazi (12 post for those who don't know, though they don't usually run 12 posts anymore).

    g1: I start off well, I believe it was Delver (I think I Daze his T1 play) followed up by DRS and Goyf (I see his life total go 20->19 (unflipped delver)->20 (glimmerpost)->15(delver + goyf)->7(delver + goyf + drs). Have some permission in hand so when I have lethal on board I force his expedition map so he can't chasm and squeak out of this one.

    out 2x Disgure, 1x AD, 2x Daze, 1x TNN
    in 1x Fow, 1x V Clique, 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Sylvan Library

    g2: We both durdle a bit, eventually he resolves SnT with FoW back up

    out 1x Flusterstorm
    in 1x Daze

    g3: Long, drawn out game, he gains 9 life total off of glimmerposts, I have a full board (4 creatures, lands, Sylvan library), and with him at 2 life and ~6 posts in play + eye of ugin, the only thing I am cold to is an emrakul off the top and karakas (for infinite turns) because I can sac 6 permenants, block emrakul with v clique, and swing back for the win. He finds an emrakul with his SDT and crop rotates for Karakas. GG.

    round 2: Hypergenesis combo

    No idea what he is on...

    g1: play a DRS, pass the turn. he plays a land and passes. I play a bob and attack for 1. he discards to hand size. I wasteland his 1 land and continue to build my board (with no idea what he is on but I do have a daze and feel comfortable tapping out because he has no lands). Eventually I have 2x Shaman, Bob, Goyf, 4 lands (2 are tapped from casting goyf) to his Wooded Foothills with a Daze, FoW, and land in hand. (I had revealed FoW to Bob so he also knew about it - ouch). Eventually he cracks his foothills and Simian spirit guide + elvish spirit guide for Shardless agent. Trigger. reveals hypergensis. I daze. He FoW exiling FoW. My hand now consists of a FoW and a land. Had I not played a goyf the previous turn I could have hard cast the foW, (2 DRS + 4 lands), so I only had 4 mana at my disposal. He puts emrakul and griselbrand into play. GG.

    I imagine his opening 7 was something like tropical island, 2 spirit guides, emrakul, griselbrand, fow, fow.

    out: 2x Disfigure, 3x AD, 1x TNN
    in: 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x V Clique, 1x Fow, 1x Thoughtseize

    g2: 2x Hymn, 2x Thoughtseize. GG

    No SB changes

    g3: He opens the game up with 3x Leyline of Sanctity...ouch. I had a Hymn AND thoughtseize in hand. play a shaman, my only permission in hand is daze. he hard casts shardless agent. i daze. he pays with ESG. GG.

    round 3: Burn

    No idea what he was on either...

    g1: land, suspend rift bolt from him is pretty obvious. I am able to abrupy decay a vexing devil and a sulfuric vortex. i draw 4 lands in a row with 3 in play. GG.

    out: 1x TNN, 2x Disfigure, 1x AD
    in: 1x Envelop, 1x Spell Pierce, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Fow

    g2: play a shaman, while he burns me. I even try to envelop a chain lightning but he has a pyroblast for it. im at 9 he tries to price me during my EoT (3 lands in play). I flusterstorm (after having played goyf that turn, so storm 3). countered. he untaps, price again. I FoW, he has another pyroblast. go down to 3. bolt, lose. yuck.

    I think I am going to add a winter orb or null rod in my SB in place of the submerge, as I need a higher impact card for the turbo MU (there is at least 2 in my meta, in addition to miracles). Other than that, critique/advice is welcome.

  5. #205
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    @Ein- I agree with not countering 1-for-1 removal if your hand has cantrips/additional threats available, and doesn't contain an overload of permission. The only creature that you want to try and protect aggressively would be Dark Confidant. He is just insane against Miracles, I would value him a lot higher than the other dudes.

    Maybe an extra Bob in the board could be good against Control and most combo decks?
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  6. #206
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I think the primer ought to mention Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard section. It seems flexible enough in the Miracles match-up as an answer to both Jace and Entreat angels, under the right circumstance.

    It's in the board of one of the example lists at least.
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  7. #207
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    Okay sure, so two points:

    ...

    Did I make my point clear? Do you disagree? Let me know.

    Greetings
    Well thought, well written. I agree and I'll try to use this approach more consciously while piloting RUG.

    Fact is that sometimes it's reasonable to try to protect the dude, esp. when the kill spell is something like Smallpox, or when our hand is full of counters or when the opponent is stuck on low mana and can't follow the removal with another play. But most of the times it shouldn't be difficult to find another creature and continue the beatdown, while keeping the board clear of SFM->BSK, Jace, EtA tokens or anything else.

  8. #208
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Purgatory View Post
    I think the primer ought to mention Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard section. It seems flexible enough in the Miracles match-up as an answer to both Jace and Entreat angels, under the right circumstance.

    It's in the board of one of the example lists at least.
    My problem with Pulse is that, against most miracles players, it'll never hit their angels. Against Jace, sure, but if they are fate sealing, it's all the harder to get it.

    I'd prefer proactive disruption (bitterblossom, weirding, needle, etc) or instant speed removal.

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  9. #209
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I did some play testing yesterday in preparation for SCG Cinci. Played the BUG Delver mirror (6 games) and the Miracles matchup (6 games). I played the BUG mirror on each the play and draw 1 game preboard and then each the play and draw 2 games post board.

    As for the BUG mirror it felt like what mattered was who had a better board presence. As Decay can't be countered, preemptively Thoughtseizing, to take out removal or threats that were difficult to deal with seemed to work out well. As for boarding: I am still not sure I am completely happy with my sideboard for the mirror; however, this is what I did: -3 Force of Will (3 main and 1 board), -3 Daze (4 main); +1 Disfigure (one in the main), +1 Liliana of the Veil (one in the main), +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Spell Pierce (1 in main), and +2 Mizzium Skin. We were testing out the tech of Mizzium Skin as it does give you an effective way to "counter" Abrupt Decays while also having some marginal utility when facing down -1/-1 effects. I never got to cast Mizzium Skin for value but it did feel good knowing that I was protected from an opposing Abrupt Decay the one time I did draw it. Mizzium Skin might be too cute overall, but still has quite a bit of utility in basically ever match up with removal... DeathBlade, BUG, Shardless, UWR, Miracles (basically every non-combo deck). Two may be too many I may try it out as a one-of for a week or two yet. Spell Pierce may see counter intuitive but it allows you to more aggressively counter cantrips and also gives a means to counter Liliana. I think some other considerations for this match up would be Sylvan Library and Submerge. My opponent brought in both of these. I think Library is a correct choice however Submerge seems a little loose with all of the hyper efficient removal the deck already plays. Overall in the mirror I was 5-1 loosing one game to a Liliana which got out of control.

    The Miracles testing was a bit weird. I played BUG for 4 games. 1 each pre and post board on each the play and draw. Then we switched decks and I played the Miracles side for two games against BUG. So from the BUG side of things, I felt the match up felt fine. Our deck plays cards that are basically better all the time. The one exception to this is when your Miracles opponent gets to Miracle something. Top was a bit irritating as it slows down the game immensely. However any time my opponent played a Counterbalance, I either was in under it with some pressure and/or had an Abrupt Decay. I won both preboard games, however, my opponent made a really greedy attack in one which cost him the game. A more conservative line would have likely won him the game. In the way of Sideboarding I did the following: -4 Daze, -1 Disfigure, -2 Waseland; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod, +1 FoW, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Liliana. I think Sylvan Library, Golgari Charm, and Zur's Weirding could all also be potentials here. In the Post board games, I Thoughtseized and FoWed Tops aggressively. This seemed to work out well as I managed to win both games. Playing from the opposite side seemed terrible although that may be due to preffered type of decks and playstyle. I went 1-1. The Miracles deck has so many land and very few ways to actually win the game. If you force your opponent to make 1-for-1 interactions you should, as the BUG player, come out on top. Just don't overextend into Terminus or Supreme Verdict. Anyway I would be game to hear what others think on these topics.

  10. #210
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I'm not as experienced with Miracles as some, but here are my two cents:

    1. Liliana of the Veil will not win you the game, but she sure makes it a lot harder for the Miracles player to win. Just remember that when miracles has a top online, and we're both out of cards, they still have 3 virtual cards floating on the top of the deck. Also, watch out for venser shenanigans, as he can bounce Liliana in response to a +1.

    2. Hymn early, hymn often. One aspect of control is forcing the opponent to do what you want them to do. By forcing plays, you are controlling the game state. Even if the hymn gets countered, a brainstorm gets used, or whatever, you're still getting action out of their hand, and beefing up your goyfs.

    3. Threat density. Keep it low. A single Goyf on the board as a 4/5 is easy to deal with, but forces the miracles player to have a good answer for it. Pair it with an early liliana and you're in a pretty good place. Getting it swords'd is the best they can do as far as permanent removal, and then you just drop down another one. The most I'd run out, particularly in the early game, is two threats. We run a very small number of creatures, and getting 3 or 4 of them killed off all at once feels bad. We want their terminus and verdicts to have as little value as possible.

    4. Know when to go all-in. Keep track of spells used, what threats they could still posess, etc. Don't run yourself into a verdict or terminus too early, as you can end up getting outpaced, and find yourself dealing with a bunch of 4/4 flying Angels. If there's one thing that Bug Delver has a really hard time dealing with, it's a mass of creatures.

    Sideboarding options:

    Winter Orb
    Null Rod
    Spell Pierce
    Envelop
    Vendilion Clique
    Golgari Charm
    Sylvan Library
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  11. #211
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Is everyone here forgetting about Creeping Tar Pit?
    That's a cracking one against Miracles. Bounce that, Jace!
    Also nice against decks that mess with our mana base.

    Maybe we should re-introduce this guy, since Miracles and Canadian are back in DTB.

  12. #212
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Is everyone here forgetting about Creeping Tar Pit?
    That's a cracking one against Miracles. Bounce that, Jace!
    Also nice against decks that mess with our mana base.

    Maybe we should re-introduce this guy, since Miracles and Canadian are back in DTB.
    I think there is some utility here, but I am not the biggest fan. Miracles has Swords to Plowshares in addition to Terminus. Paying effectively 4 mana to get a Duress and maybe 3 life is not exactly what I am looking for here. I don't think this is the route I want to take in this match up.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturtzilla View Post
    I think there is some utility here, but I am not the biggest fan. Miracles has Swords to Plowshares in addition to Terminus. Paying effectively 4 mana to get a Duress and maybe 3 life is not exactly what I am looking for here. I don't think this is the route I want to take in this match up.
    It may not be the first strategy we think of, but it's a threat that can only be hit by the mentioned cards, and it's very effective against Jace. Not to mention the fact that it's uncounterable and that it doesn't get affected by Rest in Peace. My Tombstalker list would like to have one of these if Miracles runs rampant even more.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning View Post
    My problem with Pulse is that, against most miracles players, it'll never hit their angels. Against Jace, sure, but if they are fate sealing, it's all the harder to get it.

    I'd prefer proactive disruption (bitterblossom, weirding, needle, etc) or instant speed removal.

    Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
    True, but it's also a decent answer to Batterskull etc. I think it deserves mention at least.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    It may not be the first strategy we think of, but it's a threat that can only be hit by the mentioned cards, and it's very effective against Jace. Not to mention the fact that it's uncounterable and that it doesn't get affected by Rest in Peace. My Tombstalker list would like to have one of these if Miracles runs rampant even more.
    Creeping Tar Pit has a home in the more control-focused BUG lists, where it's usually run as a 2- or 3-of (cf. Pimus Phan's list). If you're playing it in Delver lists, you're sacrificing the reason to play the tempo deck to improve the Miracles matchup only a little. It's definitely a good card and BUG Control is a good deck, but it's not this deck.

    I am, on the other hand, a big fan of Maelstrom Pulse.

  16. #216
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    Creeping Tar Pit has a home in the more control-focused BUG lists, where it's usually run as a 2- or 3-of (cf. Pimus Phan's list). If you're playing it in Delver lists, you're sacrificing the reason to play the tempo deck to improve the Miracles matchup only a little. It's definitely a good card and BUG Control is a good deck, but it's not this deck.

    I am, on the other hand, a big fan of Maelstrom Pulse.
    Back in february-march, I tested a lot of TA vs. Miracles in preparation for BoM (I can't go anyway, since my fiancé and I are buying a car instead, but whatever) and I found Creeping Tar-Pit to be less-than stellar. It will rarely get Terminus'd, sure, but they can do it and they will if it will save a Jace, and they have so many other removals in StP + Snapcaster, that it takes several Hymns and preferably a Pithing Needle on Top for it to even be considered a PW killer.

    I'm sure I was playing it incorrectly in some way, but I couldn't get it to put up the results other people had.
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  17. #217
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    If you see Creeping Tar Pit as a creature, then this card sucks. It comes into play tapped, and you have to spend mana on it, just to get it killed. But that's not what this card is about in this Match-Up.

    This card should be used as an "insurance". You will proceede with your normal gameplan for as long as possible, all you have to do is threaten to have this card available. Just keep on bashing with your Delvers/Goyfs for as long as you can. What will threatening a Tar Pit attack do?

    First and foremost, it won't allow me to drop Jace and unsummon your creature.
    It won't allow me to drop Jace and Brainstorm, because if I don't find a removal I just wasted a win-con.
    It won't allow me to play the removal as good as possible, as this often includes one Snapcaster chump-block in the end, just before Entreat is found or anything. I can't do that any more - as it won't allow me to block.
    It won't allow me to treat Entreat the Angels as a Terminus + You win, as Tar Pit can attack through it.

    If you play this card patiently and kind of re-actively, you'll learn where the real value of this card lies. It's good against Miracles, that being said.

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  18. #218

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Einherjer's spot on. You don't play tar pit with the intention to activate it as soon as possible. It's a late game card for when your opponent as answered many of your threats already and you need something to pressure them for the last chunk of life. I used to have it in my board when I started playing this deck last year because it was a good way to up the land count and threat count at the same time in Delver mirrors. Will consider adding it mostly for miracles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    Einherjer's spot on. You don't play tar pit with the intention to activate it as soon as possible. It's a late game card for when your opponent as answered many of your threats already and you need something to pressure them for the last chunk of life. I used to have it in my board when I started playing this deck last year because it was a good way to up the land count and threat count at the same time in Delver mirrors. Will consider adding it mostly for miracles.
    From my POV, the problem with this matchup is that, once miracles stabilized, it's really hard to squeeze the last points of damage through. This is where Tar Pit can come in handy.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Remember that Black has a slightly weaker equivalent to Sulfuric Vortex:

    Forsaken Wastes

    Like Vortex, the idea with a card like this is to A) turn off life-gain, and B) provide a difficult-to-answer inevitable win-condition against control decks. When I was playing RUG, Vortex was the key to winning a lot of control matchups since you needed something to close out games after your first few early threats get answered. It's not as quick as Vortex, and of course we don't have Bolts to hasten the process, but I often find my games against Miracles getting down to top-deck wars and them in single-digit life. An alternative to this is Bitterblossom, but the problem with Blossom is that a well-timed Terminus can undo all of its pressure.

    I am not suggesting this to be superior to alternatives, simply an option to consider.

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