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Thread: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

  1. #2781

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Hi guys,

    What do you think of this deck?

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15975&d=298305&f=LE

    Its using 3 seas and 2 Leovolds. I'm going to test it a little bit. I dont play this archetype a lot, so if anyone has suggestions that d be great

  2. #2782
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by pipet76 View Post
    Hi guys,

    What do you think of this deck?

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15975&d=298305&f=LE

    Its using 3 seas and 2 Leovolds. I'm going to test it a little bit. I dont play this archetype a lot, so if anyone has suggestions that d be great
    Best deck to start in this format and smash some people faces. I would cut 1 Leovold and add the 4th Goyf.
    If your meta is really control-heavy you can add a second one.
    You don't need the 4th USea, this is fine.
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  3. #2783

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Hi

    I've been wondering for ages how to sb with this deck:

    1) against what do we use Jace for?
    2) is winter good? Against what?
    3) is 1 leovold md worth running?

    If anybody has any sb advice or link to read for it I'd be great

    Thanks

  4. #2784
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by pipet76 View Post
    Hi

    I've been wondering for ages how to sb with this deck:

    1) against what do we use Jace for?
    2) is winter good? Against what?
    3) is 1 leovold md worth running?

    If anybody has any sb advice or link to read for it I'd be great

    Thanks
    1)Jace can be very good in grindy, removal heavy match ups, where you know they'll probably have lots of creature removal. Also good in case they land something obnoxious like Ensaring Bridge. Or in a top-deck war, Jace is the absolute king.

    2)I am guessing you mean Winter Orb? In that case, it's not as good as it was, since I think it was best versus Diving Top decks. Now, if you still want to use it, you can but it's not nearly as effective versus most decks now. If you still see mana-hungry decks, things that run lands like Cloudpost, it can still be OK, but there are probably better options now.

    3)Yes, I think so, because you have 8 cantrips to find him when you need him and zero chance to have a second one dead in your hand.

    It's kind of hard to give sideboard advice without knowing your list though.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  5. #2785

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Hi guys, I would also be interested in some general sideboard advice...

    I played in an 8 man FNM last Friday and got paired against DnT round 1, Jund round 2 and Punishing Jund round 3... Sadly went 0-3 but learned a few things about what not to do.

    Mainboard:

    4 DRS
    4 Delver
    2 Goyf
    2 TNN
    2 Leovold

    4 Daze
    4 FoW
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Decay
    2 Push
    1 Liliana

    20 Lands featuring 4 Wasteland and 6 Duals

    Sideboard:

    2 Needle
    2 Surgical
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Cranial Extraction
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 JTMS
    2 TS
    1 Dismember
    1 Dread of Night

    Happyish with the DnT matchup, my main problem is I just need to RTFC... Made a mistake and conceded when I could have won :/

    But Jund was another animal... First time playing against it. Quickly realised cutting counters was the way forward (they seen like terrible top decks), I brought in some grindy Midrange cards like JTMS, Library, Life, Surgical and Needle. Any other advice on the matchup.

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  6. #2786
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer View Post
    Hi guys, I would also be interested in some general sideboard advice...

    I played in an 8 man FNM last Friday and got paired against DnT round 1, Jund round 2 and Punishing Jund round 3... Sadly went 0-3 but learned a few things about what not to do.

    Mainboard:

    4 DRS
    4 Delver
    2 Goyf
    2 TNN
    2 Leovold

    4 Daze
    4 FoW
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Decay
    2 Push
    1 Liliana

    20 Lands featuring 4 Wasteland and 6 Duals

    Sideboard:

    2 Needle
    2 Surgical
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Cranial Extraction
    1 Marsh Casualties
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 JTMS
    2 TS
    1 Dismember
    1 Dread of Night
    Well, one this list there are some curious/counter intuitive choices here, at least as far as the conventional wisdom (generally) of this thread.

    The 20 land versions generally run 7 duals, mainly due to Wastelands. In this case, the end result is probably going to be occasional issues with keeping double Black for Liliana, while not getting taken off Green. This is why the odd configuration of 4 Sea/1 Trop/2 Bayou exists, as it gives you the best chance to keep up double Black and still have Green. Of course, your list pulls the opposite direction at the same time, needing double Blue for TNN. While these are minor issues, it can come up from time to time, especially versus Death and Taxes, for example, where your mana might be severely constrained.

    Second is the pairing of 20 lands with Stifle. Most 20 land versions, yours included (with the exception of Stifle) is very much a "tap-out" version, replete with 5 (!) three drops. Holding up a Blue, while seemingly inocculous sometimes, is not really in line with the rest of the list. For this reason, perhaps even more so in your version (owing to only 2 'Goyfs) you are rather low on turn 2 plays, if you didn't start with turn 1 Deathrite. For these reasons, 20 land, 3-drop versions usually run some number of Hymn to Tourach over something like Stifle.

    There is the additional consideration that Stifle is (usually) best as a tempo card, often paired with Spell Pierce. Liliana and Leovold aren't really tempo cards though and only having 2 'Goyf can exacerbate this issue. At best, you can catch them once with a Stifle, but it probably won't really win the game and often, you won't really have the luxury of both advancing your game plan (Cantriping or committing threats) while simultaneously holding up Stifle. In this way, Stifle is actually hurting your own tempo, possibly even more than your opponent's.

    I'd conservatively suggest that perhaps trying Hymn in place of Stifle might lead to a more streamlined play experiance, and 4 Seas/1 Trop/2 Bayou would also help in that case, even though it could plausibly make TNN a little harder to cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer View Post
    Happyish with the DnT matchup, my main problem is I just need to RTFC... Made a mistake and conceded when I could have won :/

    But Jund was another animal... First time playing against it. Quickly realised cutting counters was the way forward (they seen like terrible top decks), I brought in some grindy Midrange cards like JTMS, Library, Life, Surgical and Needle. Any other advice on the matchup.
    Jund is a bad matchup, for the most part. Largely, they are doing the same thing we are in the match-up, but usually better.

    One way to win is trying to prey on the variance they will have that we often don't, having 8 cantrips. In this way, Punishing Jund can sometimes be easier to beat, because their mana-base is worse and something like 2 Wastelands can sometimes basically end the game. Of course, other times they will just stomp you with more threats and more removal, because that is basically all that is in their deck.

    Even with the variance, you simply aren't going to be the beat-down deck in the match-up. You might be able to get them with tempo, but given that our tempo game isn't very strong, that is unlikely. Instead, you will probably end up playing more of a control role, attempting to use a sweeper to catch back up and hopefully using a Planeswalker to win, probably with True-Name playing defense, or beating down after a board wipe. Again, it's a bad match-up though that you can expect to lose more often than win. Since it seems your meta seems to have a good deal, they do often struggle against Tombstalker, since they usually don't have much removal for it (possibly Lili) and nothing that can block it.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  7. #2787

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I normally run a Hymn based listed running 3/1/2 USea/Trop/Bayou as thats all I have access to atm - still quite new to the deck and havent got the optimal manabase. I recently acquired a second Trop and thought to give Stifle a try running 3/2/1 manabase... I came to a similar conclusion that my creature suite wasn't suited for a Stifle build. Will be going back to Hymn. Also went back yo 4 Goyfs and 1 of TNN/Leo/Tombstalker.

    WRT the Jund matchup, its good to know I found another bad matchup :/ but at least I will get a lot of practice against it in my local scene. I think I was on the right path trying to go more controlling...

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  8. #2788
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer View Post
    I normally run a Hymn based listed running 3/1/2 USea/Trop/Bayou as thats all I have access to atm - still quite new to the deck and havent got the optimal manabase. I recently acquired a second Trop and thought to give Stifle a try running 3/2/1 manabase... I came to a similar conclusion that my creature suite wasn't suited for a Stifle build. Will be going back to Hymn. Also went back yo 4 Goyfs and 1 of TNN/Leo/Tombstalker.
    Well, it is sort of good to hear that our collective 'wisdom' probably does have some merit. I don't think it would, considering your meta, be bad to be at 3 'Goyf/2 TNN/1 Leo/1 Tombstalker, but again, this does put some strain on the mana base since you don't have access to the 4th Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer View Post
    WRT the Jund matchup, its good to know I found another bad matchup :/ but at least I will get a lot of practice against it in my local scene. I think I was on the right path trying to go more controlling...
    It's bad, but I wouldn't call it terrible. If you are going to settle into the control role, I'd also consider bringing in the Loam, because what you have over them is a bit more consistency via your cantrips. The game will go long most probably, if you are going to win, and so keeping them off Groves to hold off the Punishing Fires can be critical. In the same way, in a long game, you really don't want to be top-decking Daze or Force. I'd probably cut those and bring in anything can that kill a creature, plus Library and Loam.
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  9. #2789
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl View Post
    19 Lands

    4 Delta
    4 Misty
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    4 DRS
    4 Delver
    4 Goyf
    1 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Fatal Push
    4 Decay
    4 Hymn
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    2 Liliana of the Veil
    @Ixbpoqdxl (and anyone else running 19 lands) are you ever tempted to go up to 20 lands? I've only jammed in about 20 matches with this deck (with a recent 3-0 at my LGS versus BR Reanimator, UR Delver and Pox) without any mana problems. So have I just been on the lucky side of variance?

    My list is very similar to yours, 19 lands, except I have +1 Leovold and -1 Decay.

    Thanks in advance for any replies.
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    "Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."

  10. #2790

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really? View Post
    19 vs 20 lands.
    Short answer:

    I have a fast meta so I like 19. I'd think of playing 20 (or legitimately whatever Malimujo plays) if there was more Blade or Czech Pile lists around my area.

    Long(er) answer:

    I think it's just a personal playstyle. My list has changed a little bit since then (only one maindeck Lili now, and a Liliana, the Last Hope in the sideboard that's been over-preforming for me) but it's still pretty low on the curve. If it were possible, I'd be playing 19 and 1/2 lands without question.

    The biggest upside to playing 20 is you can go heavier on planeswalkers with double JTMS in the sideboard and then you have a much better long game against some of the grindier matchups. As long as the rest of your deck is built to support it, I think both choices are pretty reasonable for land bases.

    How many 3+ CMC cards are you playing in the 75 vs. how often do you brick on flipping Delvers vs. mana flood // mana screw are all things to think about.

    Also, if something is working for you, keep going. :)

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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl View Post
    The biggest upside to playing 20 is you can go heavier on planeswalkers with double JTMS in the sideboard and then you have a much better long game against some of the grindier matchups.
    Ah, that's something I hadn't considered, 20 lands for Jace. Another subtle detail that's good to know ;-)

    Many thanks.

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    "Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."

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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really? View Post
    Ah, that's something I hadn't considered, 20 lands for Jace. Another subtle detail that's good to know ;-)

    Many thanks.

    -
    I too believe that 19.5 lands would be the best, but since that is impossible, I err toward running 20 and siding out 1 land (usually either a Wasteland or a Bayou) if I am facing non-Wasteland decks.

    While it's less common now, this was kind of necessary in the days when you would see RUG Delver a lot more. Now, there are very few Stifles around. Still, I'd rather be at 20 lands versus D&T in any case. I don't think that 19 lands is wrong, per se, unless you have more than three 3 drops, but rather, 19 lands is risky. High risk, high rewards. However, some of my best results came with 19 lands, but only two 3 drops.
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  13. #2793
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I too believe that 19.5 lands would be the best, but since that is impossible, I err toward running 20 and siding out 1 land (usually either a Wasteland or a Bayou) if I am facing non-Wasteland decks.

    While it's less common now, this was kind of necessary in the days when you would see RUG Delver a lot more. Now, there are very few Stifles around. Still, I'd rather be at 20 lands versus D&T in any case. I don't think that 19 lands is wrong, per se, unless you have more than three 3 drops, but rather, 19 lands is risky. High risk, high rewards. However, some of my best results came with 19 lands, but only two 3 drops.
    19 lands plus a gix probe should be equivalent to 19.5 lands

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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    19 lands plus a gix probe should be equivalent to 19.5 lands
    I think I'd rather have a Strix ;-)
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  15. #2795
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really? View Post
    I think I'd rather have a Strix ;-)
    Strix doesn't lower your card count as easily.

  16. #2796
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I'm going down the 19.5 lands route by jamming 20 lands into a 61 card deck (just can't shake that Rock habit!) which gives me +1 Leo main deck (compared to Ix...xl's list) but then allowing 2x Jace in the SB. It's working well so far.


    .
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    "What if they're already dead, Sergeant?"

    "Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."

  17. #2797

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I played against UB Reanimator during our local Legacy night, and boarded out all 4 Hymn's for postgames. After the round my opponent and I were talking about the games and sideboard stuff, and he mentioned that he liked keeping Hymn in for this match up. He's usually on Czech Pile, and said that he keeps a few because Reanimator is a critical mass combo, and the disruption outweighs the potential for a "free discard".

    I've always sided out 4 Hymn's, since I've found that the card is best when any outcome is good. The variance of potentially helping the opponent here makes me nervous of playing it post-board. On the other hand, when you high-roll with Hymn, it wins for you.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on where Hymn to Tourach belongs in this match up?

  18. #2798
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    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl View Post
    I played against UB Reanimator during our local Legacy night, and boarded out all 4 Hymn's for postgames. After the round my opponent and I were talking about the games and sideboard stuff, and he mentioned that he liked keeping Hymn in for this match up. He's usually on Czech Pile, and said that he keeps a few because Reanimator is a critical mass combo, and the disruption outweighs the potential for a "free discard".

    I've always sided out 4 Hymn's, since I've found that the card is best when any outcome is good. The variance of potentially helping the opponent here makes me nervous of playing it post-board. On the other hand, when you high-roll with Hymn, it wins for you.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on where Hymn to Tourach belongs in this match up?
    I don't know your list but i guess you want to side out:

    - 2 Push
    - 2-3 AD
    - 1 Tombstalker
    - 1-2 Hymn

    So this makes around 7 slots and you will bring in stuff like:

    + 2 Thoughtseize
    + 2-3 Sort of Counterspell
    + 2 Extraction
    + 1 Flex

    I'm not sold to board out Hymn completly, it is really good in combination with DRS or Extraction and like you said, it can hit really hard.
    I see the argument to hit a creature if they have no way to put one in the grave...
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  19. #2799

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    hey, im playing food chain in paper but got into mtgo and since the deck is unplayable online imho (it takes several hundred clicks to combo off...) i got myself BUG Delver online. Had a pretty great start playing 4-1, 5-0 and 5-0 and wanted to share the list with you guys.

    Creatures:14
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    Spells:27
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Fatal Push
    4 Ponder
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Daze
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Force of Will

    Lands:19
    2 Bayou
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:15
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Null Rod
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    I think one of the most important rules is to not keep hands without a blue source. I mulled aggressively and got rewarded winning even matches were i went down to 5 cards against fair decks - but other than that the deck felt super smooth and even managed to outgrind decks like czech pile on multiple occasions. Also the deck has some decent game against the burn heavy decks with the 2 hydroblast in the sideboard plus Jitte and so on. Its also a great anwser if you expect blood moon or to fight young pyromancer while still on the stack.

  20. #2800

    Re: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by janchu88 View Post
    i got myself BUG Delver online. Had a pretty great start playing 4-1, 5-0 and 5-0 and wanted to share the list with you guys.
    Congrats -- your list looks pretty good dude.

    Has 19 lands with four 3-drops been an issue so far? 19 v. 20 is repeat discussion here (I know) but I like hearing other people's thoughts on the matter.

    Also, how do you like Null Rod currently? I've found the matchup that I really want it for is DnT (aside from LED decks), but I also want Jitte there and the dis-synergy is a little awkward. But sometimes it's worth it to lock out a good portion of a deck at the cost of invalidating only one of your own cards.

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