All the DRS decks are now slower. Green still offers Abrupt Decay, Leovold, Library, Goyf and Mongoose. These aren't cards to just pass up on. If red becomes the color of choice then BUG creatures do very well against bolt and friends.
Edit: I think we can go stifle goose threshold or Leo control still.
Here is what I have been testing lately:
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
2x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
I'm not quite sure if we want:
1. Bring Leovold into the deck?
2. Do we really want Stifle? Or do we want to go up in Lands and bring in 1-2 more 3-drops?
3. Do we want Hymn? It feels goo in this tempo shell, but it collides a bit with Stifle.
4. What threats to we want? Gurmag Angler felt pretty good. Much better than Tombstalker because of mana issues.
I don't think that this deck is dead. It might not be T1, but it has alot of good tools. I especially like the MU against RUG Delver. All their threats are weaker than ours and we have Fatal Push, which helps to keep Goyfs at bay.
A couple thoughts, in abreviated form because I am on my phone.
One, I think picking either Stifle or Hymn is a much better idea, not trying to jam both maindeck.
Two, I think 19 lands with that curve might be too little. Shaving down on Goyf, Clique, and taking out the Hymns, could fit in 4x Mongoose, which I think is reasonable.
Three, a couple Thoughtseize can then round out the list and keep the curve 'low.' It also provides some valuable information on the Mana denial front.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Here's where I am with TA:
4x Delver
4x Goyf
3x Tomstalker
4x Misty
4x Delta
4x U Sea
2x Bayou
1x Trop
4x Wasteland
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force
4x Daze
3x Push
2x Decay
3x Thoughtseize
2x Spell Pierce
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sinkhole
I think our strengths are a tap-out tempo plan instead of holding on to Stifle and hoping to get 'em. Sinkhole may certainly be a bad call, but it definitely gets better in conjunction with Wasteland now, and they might be enough to cause our opponents to stumble while we hit them with our big idiot creatures.
Played four rounds at my LGS last night and everyone preemptively cut DRS. My games were: Infect, Elves, Elves, and DnT. I got run over by Elves, but what else is new.
this deck is done.
I think you should go up to 20 lands. 19 was already considered high risk/high reward and that included a meta with DRS and likely less reliance on mana denial.
Leovold was always somewhat difficult to run in BUG delver due to cc but the loss of DRS makes things much worse. If you do choose to use him, he’s probably best on sideboard.
I don’t recommend Stifle. As you stated before, it clashes with the BUG “tap out” philosophy. If you do choose to use Stifle, consider thought seize or IoK instead. Stifle was popular with Confidant as well and Confidant is great against Grindy decks like Miracles.
You could consider using TNN although I’m not too much of a fan of its cc in a deck that wants BB ASAP. Consider 1-2 but no more if you do run it.
Some other cards you might want to consider is Sylvan Library or Dark Confidant or a single Baleful Strix/Dead Weight
Long time lurker. Bought into legacy last year with BUG delver being my first deck. Is it largely agreed that the deck is done for? Everything I’ve been thinking about changing in the deck is strongly making me lean toward BUG control and cutting delvers.
Dark ******** and BUG have always been a Meta factor, even though maybe not Tier 1 - Let's try and brew before claiming something to be done which hasn't even been tested once
19-20 lands
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
43-44 cards obligatory.
the questions are:
- 4 nimble mongoose or 2-3 Tombstalker/Gurmag Angler? And 1 True-Name Nemesis?
In addition to 4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Tarmogoyf..
(I'm afraid of Leyline of the void in some sideboards)
- 2-3-4 hymn to tourach or 4 Stifle? Or together? Or cc1 discard spells?
- planeswalkers? cc3 might be clunky. About cc3 spells, I think the best is True-Name Nemesis...
- How many spot removals? I think that 3 Abrupt decay and 3 fatal push are needed.
A possible decklist could be:
....anyone have tested a similar list in these days?4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker
1 true-name nemesis
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 stifle
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
1 dismember
B U G
born by a broken condom. grown in a manger.
twitter.com/toffino
I'm currently testing two versions of this deck - First Dark ***** with comparable tempo focus as Canadian, second BUG Midrange which is comparable to what we played before ban.
I agree with the point that one should decide between Stifle and Hymn,
BUG Tempo
MD:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
SB:
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
BUG Midrange
MD:
1 Spell Snare
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
SB:
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
Both lists have been quiet solid so far, I'm not yet sure which playstyle I personally prefer (Tap out vs. Canadian).
Main difference for me is the resillience to disruption / grinding capabilities where the second version excells, while the first one seems to perform way better against Reanimator/Combo/Marti Large.dec. Additionally the Midrange version has harsh colour requirements which not always work out great.
With regards to the SB, I don't have a real clue what is necessary but at least a few more GY hate pieces as well as more hand disruption seem to be necessary .
Looking forward to your comments and suggestions!
Actually used quite similar list yesterday and did some main board test with varies of decks. Below is the list:
//Main Deck 60 cards
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tombstalker
1 Tropical Island
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard 15 cards
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
I started to play Team America in 2017 which was my first Legacy deck. I should say I've already relied on DRS thus the banning made me confused:) Some experienced players recommended me to go with this list. It is formed based on the old TA deck list in early 2012.
There are some biggest feelings:
1. Mana base without basic lands has become much more dangerous. As TA is running cards like Hymm, Stalker and/or TNN, mana base destruction will truly slow down our game plan and waste our time. Meanwhile, with 4 Goyf in the deck, green mana is becoming more important and need to be searched with privilege. (I now go USea->Bayou->Bayou/Trop) I don't have too much experience play against Stifle. Anyone who know about it please kindly share.
2. Meta speed is increasing. It is important to justify whether we should go defensive or aggressive since we usually have both creature and removal on our hands. Usually when playing against RUG, there is not too much creature in the field so who get a monster who gain the advantage. And when playing against Maverick, we really have to put early threatens on field as quickly as possible(Without DRS, Knight of Reliquery is becoming bigger and bigger)
3. LotV seems becoming more useful than LtLH more. Sacrifice against big brothers and discard against slow decks. Need more test to prove this result.(I personally like LtLH more)
Still need to optimize the list and test more. Feel free to comment:)
So long.
I'm not quite sure, if Nimble Mongoose is actually that good. Nimble Mongoose profits from a slow playstyle. You won't have him active in the early turns. Mainly you wait and deal with everything your opponent does. Personally I believe that RUG Delver is better at that, than we are. They have Bolt and we have Decay, Fatal Push, Discard and propably Gurmag Angler. We are much more into black, than they are into red. Therefore I assume we cannot play 18 Lands if we go that route. Also Nimble Mongoose seems weak here.
A Tempo Shell could be:
12 Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
21 Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Spell Pierce
3x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Stifle
20 Lands:
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
7 Sorceries:
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
But I think, that this would just be worse than what RUG Delver is doing. We have more lands and thus worse Delver Flips. Our interaction being part Sorcery seems worse than pure stack interaction. I can't help it, I tested the Stifle variants and they just felt weaker.
So maybe we can still profit from the "tapout" playstile from earlier TA-Lists. Even with DRS we used to play 20 Lands. Now, we easily need to go up to 22 for that, which makes our Delvers even worse. BUT we gain Gurmag Angler, the new most efficient creature on the block. Seriously, I think Gurmag might be better here than Tombstalker. He is less clunky and helps to block stupid Geese all day long.
A possible list could look like:
10 Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Gurmag Angler
18 Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Spell Pierce
22 Lands:
2x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
2 Planeswalker:
2x Liliana of the Veil
8 Sorceries:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
What do you guys think?
I don't think the BUG tempo is the way to go and I agree that RUG is just more efficient at this. We can't discard and mana denial at the same time efficiently and we lack bolts which RUG has for reach.
My proposed changes to your list would be -1 Angler, -1 Hymn, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Spell pierce, -1 Fatal push, -2 lands and +1 TNN, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Deadweight, +1 Life from the Loam
My reasoning for the Angler switch would be decreased reliance on GY and the lack of synergy with Goyf and Angler. It's also good against fair decks and pitches to FoW. The cons are UU casting cost in a deck that wants BB by T2, slow against combo, and dies to -X/-X spells (Toxic deluge, Golgari Charm, Massacre) that we need against D&T/elves/other fair decks.
As much as I love Liliana and Hymn, we need to reduce the BB reliance, especially with loss of DRS and increased reliance on mana denial strategies.
I suggest 20 lands and Life from the Loam because you don't want to get mana flooded but you want to remain consistent. Loam synergizes well with wastelands, Liliana, and is excellent against mana denial strategies and great with Brainstorm/Sylvan Library.
Sylvan Library is good against grindy decks like Miracles and for elevating consistency. Other than Confidant, it's probably the best flex spell in our arsenal for increasing card quality/advantage.
Dead Weight is there to pump up Goyf. Everyone loves hating on Goyf but in the end of the day, he's there as a cheap, efficient, and replaceable beater that draw removal away from Delver and Gurmag. Think of Dead Weight as a sorcery soft removal that follows the "tap out" BUG philosophy
Do you really want Mongoose in your 75 in a non Tempo shell? I came to the conclusion that we can't play more than 1 3cmc card without acceleration. I think we should focus on 1-2 cmc cards. Like discard, Tombstalker/Angler, free counterspells, no more than 11 creatures. I also believe that Fatal Push will be big in the upcoming meta due to the assumed increase in Goyfs everywhere.
If you believe push will be more common, do you think it will be worth it to remove a single Goyf and add a/another TNN instead? What do you think about adding a basic or decreasing reliance on BB spells?
A possibility could be - 1-2 hymns and + 1-2 thoughtseize or IOK, forgoing stalker for angler, and limiting Liliana to one or removing altogether to decrease some strain. Efficient and quick discard will be more important than ever to deal with the onslaught of combo decks and to relieve some strain on the mana base.
Traditionally adding a basic island has been frowned upon in BUG delver but if we were to decrease reliance on BB plays and the addition of TNN, it may not be a bad idea.
Another question I’ve been considering recently is how useful is Abrupt Decay going to be? Can we go down to 1 if instead of the traditional 2-3? What are we hitting that we could not hit with push? AFAIK, it seems equips and blood moons/B2B are the addition but I question if this is worth it and should Abrupts be sideboarded. We want to be lying down threat after threat and be proactive , not reactive. Holding up GB can be very difficult especially when we don’t have DRS.
I've tested Nimble Mongoose and Stifle.....I think they are better in RUG Delver.
I decided to test this build:
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker
2 true-name nemesis
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 diabolic edict
1 sylvan library
SIDEBOARD
2 liliana, the last hope
2 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
1 diabolic edict
2 flusterstorm
1 blue elemental blast
1 pithing needle
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 dismember
1 toxic deluge
I don't have the 4th Underground Sea (the 2nd Tropical should be the 4th Sea), but the deck works fine.
Against combo is really strong, but I haven't tested against d&t and miracle yet.
What do u think about the list?
Last edited by toffee; 07-12-2018 at 03:45 AM.
B U G
born by a broken condom. grown in a manger.
twitter.com/toffino
I don't think BUG Delver can afford to run any 3 drops. A midrange BUG list that drops Delver for Baleful Strix can get away with a few 3 drops, but I don't think the Delver versions can. This means no Liliana or TNN (or Leovold).
I think RUG Delver does the Stifle thing better. What benefit does BUG have trying to play the same game? Bolt is better than Push/Decay for that style of play.
I believe BUG Delver's niche is being more midrange with Hymn to Tourach. I think a creature package of 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 2 Tombstalker is fine. You're already built to make BB, and should be capable of producing BB by the time you have 6 cards in the yard, so I'd rather have Tombstalker over Angler.
The deck definitely needs to be on 20 lands like it used to be before DRS. 19 is way too greedy to support Hymn and Wasteland.
Push/Decay and discard is what will give this deck a niche and distinguish itself from RUG. Black also gives access to some strong sideboard options that RUG doesn't have. I believe the deck exists perfectly fine without DRS, albeit maybe not Tier 1.
My 2 cents.
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