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Thread: [Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

  1. #21
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by toletole View Post
    I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying you have enough tools to have a fair game if you manage to avoid Stifle+Waste lock. Lilianas, disfigures, decays, submerge, shamans, tombstalker... it's not like "hey they have submerge, we lose lol"
    Sure, the trick is to get your mana online without dying / near death.

    I think that's what most people here agree upon though. We feel fine if we get to about 3 mana without dying so our more powerful spells can take over the game. What the disagreement is on is how easy it is to do that.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by toletole View Post
    it's not like "hey they have submerge, we lose lol"
    True, but let's face it: Canadian Thresh is a more streamlined deck than Team America. It'll draw better average hands, needs less resources to function properly and especially postboard it has all the stuff that makes our life hard (removal, fast threats, mana denial). Winnable matchup? Yes. Favourable matchup? I hardly think so.

  3. #23

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    True, but let's face it: Canadian Thresh is a more streamlined deck than Team America. It'll draw better average hands, needs less resources to function properly and especially postboard it has all the stuff that makes our life hard (removal, fast threats, mana denial). Winnable matchup? Yes. Favourable matchup? I hardly think so.
    More Streamlined? Yes. Winnable matchup? Agree. Favorable matchup? Maybe not I guess. My experience has been different though. I've never felt like an underdog against good RUG players. Even when I've lost to them most of the time it is due to some misplay I made and not because their deck is good enough against us for our play not to matter. Unlike Sneak and Show our play does carry a lot of weight in the matchup. Maybe it's not a favorable matchup but I don't think it's unfavorable either. I guess can get behind saying the matchup is at least even if not favorable then.

    EDIT: Sturtz, I didn't know you also Top 8'ed the IQ over the weekend. Congrats buddy! Wish I could have came.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    EDIT: Sturtz, I didn't know you also Top 8'ed the IQ over the weekend. Congrats buddy! Wish I could have came.
    There seems to be a Legacy IQ at that shop each month. I will make sure you know for the next couple.

    As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.

  5. #25
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Great work on the new primer, Dragonslayer_90! Thanks for taking the time to write it up :)
    Currently playing:

    Canadian Threshold Primer!
    Team America

    My blog about Legacy, limited, EDH and stuff!

  6. #26

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturtzilla View Post
    There seems to be a Legacy IQ at that shop each month. I will make sure you know for the next couple.

    As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.
    I agree.
    I'm playing 1 Disfigure main, and one more in the SB.

    For reference this is my list:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Tombstalker

    3 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Abrupt Decay
    1 Disfigure
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder

    1 Liliana of the Veil

    4 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    2 Bayou
    4 Wasteland
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest

    Side:

    1 Force of Will
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Null Rod
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Graffdiger's Cage
    1 Disfigure
    1 Diabolic Edict
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Submerge

  7. #27

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturtzilla View Post
    As for the RUG and BUG debate, I agree that RUG is more streamlined but not necessarily more powerful. If they can keep us off of land it is a bad situation. However if you keep hands with a couple lands and a Deathrite, their mana denial package is not so good. They have to prioritize killing Shaman or we get to manage the graveyards while also gaining access to life and mana to play around soft counters. That said we have a much stronger mid and late game. It really comes down to navigating to that point. I think in most delver match ups, you want to prioritize killing delvers. Abrupt Decay is good at this but slower than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Very often the 3-6 damage difference between a one mana piece of removal and a Decay really makes the difference. I advocate trying out a Disfigure or two if you can work them into your lists.
    I concur. Couldn't have said it better myself.


    By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  8. #28

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Vs vial decks I like ignoring vial boarding out counters and focusing on hymn plus removal

  9. #29
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    I concur. Couldn't have said it better myself.


    By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?
    Goyf, Tombstalker and DRS are king, and cheap removal > plague, especially since they tend to tutor up Chieftain over Warchief against black.

    I agree, ignore vial; just control the board and slow their explosive style

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?
    I think preboard we have to assume the tempo role. Taking out their lands and attacking their hand, while playing your own threats. This should bottleneck what they can play as well as give you the heads up on how to sequence. You don't want them to resolve something like Krenko, Mob Boss, as we can't Abrupt Decay it or Disfigure it. I think Plague is a fine idea in the board in general. I moved away from it recently but if there is more Tribal in your (our...) LGS, then it might warrant it. Not to mention Plague is good versus TNN decks, Death and Taxes, and the occasional Echantress deck.


    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Vs vial decks I like ignoring vial boarding out counters and focusing on hymn plus removal
    I agree. I like attacking the hand. By doing so you are making them play off of the top of their deck and it takes away some Value from Vial.

  11. #31

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90 View Post
    By the way, I was wondering if anyone has experience with playing against Goblins with Team America? I got ran over by it last night at my LGS in the first round, which was my only loss the whole night so I finished 3-1. I've played it a little here and there but not enough to feel comfortable with it really. It seems pretty bad preboard since we lack the tools to control the board against Goblins. It seems like the only way to win preboard is to have an aggressive tempo opener with either turn one deathrite or delver, preferably on the play as well. Post board it seems more manageable but can still be bad. I think I might go back up to three golgari charms. Should I consider adding an Engineered Plague to my board?
    Good friend of mine plays Goblins. My experience is that games really can go both ways. A key point in our games is always the resolving of a Ringleader. If they hit a lot, the game swings their way, if not itīs game very quickly (especially if you hymned them before, which is a bomb against them). Boarding is really easy for me, - 4 Daze, - 3 FoW (i only play three because of Bob) and + 2 Disfigure + 3 Charm + Null Rod + Clique (in response to Matron into Ringleader). DRS is indeed great as always to create early and heavy pressure, but always gets Tarfired/ Gempalmed. Goyf and TS are threats they cannot handle in any way, except maybe for a big gempalm or blasting it with SGC tokens.

  12. #32

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Goblins try to play the control game against any kind of delver decks.
    The longer the game goes the more they are going to win in my experience because you cant beat 4 matrons 4 ringleader and the big dudes aka commander and krenko during g1.
    Discard helps as well as a ton of removal spells.



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  13. #33
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    I encountered Goblins during my last tourney, and I managed to stall game 3 long enough to get the draw, but he had Krenko out, which was always going to kill me in the long run. Krenko is a big issue, because we have no proper way of dealing with it. Charm plus Disfigure is the only way, really. I felt the only way to win this matchup was to get an early Delver or Stalker out, while using Hymn to deprive him of goblins in hand and removal to kill the guys on the board. Pure tempo/aggrocontrol play. Hymn also helps negate the effect of a Ringleader.

    The difference in this matchup between being on the play and being on the draw is massive. Liliana for instance is pretty bad if it enters the battlefield too late, because her removal ability will hit irrelevant guys all the time. Half the goblin army is expendable anyway. But if Lily enters on turn 2-3 on the play, she'll hit the first goblin that enters the field, which in turn allows you to untap, tick her one up and drop a blocker or cast removal on the second goblin that comes in. This allows Lily to use her removal ability twice. Also Daze on the play is fine against goblins, but on the draw it's absolutely unusable. On the play we can actually play a fine tempo game and win easily. On the draw we need quite a bit of luck to keep the green guys at bay.

  14. #34

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    About the first game, i think the secret against goblins is not being afraid of mulligan.

    I always mulligan hands like this:
    fetch fetch brainstorm ponder fow daze ponder.

    Its a nice hand, but we need to be the aggressor in this match.

    For me, this is the perfect hand against them:

    shaman, hymn, goyf, abrupt, delver, 2 lands.

    t1 - shaman
    t2 - goyf + delver
    t3 - hymn + abrupt the vial =)

  15. #35
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

    BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

    My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65172

    With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

    Rich

  16. #36

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atog Lord View Post
    In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

    BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

    My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65172

    With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

    Rich
    I agree that most of the time Team America plays the control role against RUG, though on the play if we have an aggressive opener we might be able put RUG on the backpedal. The trimming of the Hymns in postboard games is a matter of: 1. Having less two drops 2. Having less cards that get worse as the game goes into the mid and late game. However, I see where you are coming from Atog, and I think the way you play the matchup is fine (maybe even better than the approach I described though I can't say for sure without testing).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  17. #37

    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Personally, I think I would board out all my hymns now. It's not good when you're behind and doesn't affect the board. You're usually on the back foot. Although we play 24 mana sources to their 18, they have stifle and bolt so I think mana development is actually pretty close. I like counters more because the most common way to lose is to get mana screwed.

  18. #38
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.
    Good Luck!

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Drawing into t8 @SCG DFW.
    Great!

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