[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[FoolofaTook]

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay

This is a really good take on the 55 main.

Assuming that Stifle is 4x in the flex 5 you're basically running RUG Canadian's game plan but a turn slower on the removal and without reach. That feels like a straddle between the all out tempo assault of RUG and TA and the more controlling BUG variants. Is it in a sweet spot in that position or is it a bit less due to the lack of reach and decay removing a turn later than bolt and the threats not having the staying power of either RUG Canadian (Nimble Mongoose) or BUG Control (TNN)?

[exallium]

Stifle is fine and generally good, but I think there's something to be said for metagaming a little harder. To be specific: I am perfectly happy with 55 cards in the deck:

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay

And so there are 5 flex slots. Everyone knows how good the delve cards are, so I expect that the most popular decks at the SCG or GP NJ metagame will be Delver/Cruise decks of all types, with most of the rest of the metagame filled out by decks that traditionally have positive Delver matchups: Miracles, very fast combo (e.g. Storm), and controlling Stoneforge Mystic decks like Deathblade or D+T. Against this gauntlet, 4 Stifle/1 Charm choice for the flex slots is very reasonable, but I'm not convinced it's the most powerful approach. Perhaps it would be better to attack the haymakers (Cruise, Terminus, equipment) more head-on, since those are the cards that actually matter. Perhaps something like 2 Vendilion Clique/2 Spell Pierce/1 Disfigure? The Disfigure might seem random, but pre-boarding a little bit against Delver seems right to me - maybe we could even run 2 maindeck Disfigures.

I've seen disfigure in main-decks before, so I think that's reasonable. Currently, my "flex slots" are 4 Hymns and a land, and I've been moving back and forward between 4 Cruises vs 2 Cruise/2 Lili.
My line of thinking is that Cruise provides card advantage, as does Hymn (as it disadvantages your opponent) and Liliana. Card mass is great in a tempo deck, making draw 3 a great effect.

MD clique is a great tradeoff for stifle because it can accomplish a lot of the same goals, such as dealing with miracle cards as well as stoneforge activations. It also brings our threat count up to 14, which is significant.

Hymn to me is there to tear their hand apart, and I think I'd run it main deck over spell pierce. At best, it gets rid of land drops or other high impact action. At worse, it forces action on their behalf. One of the great things to me about this deck is how many angles it can apply pressure from.

@FoolsOfATook
I think we should be less on the land destruction plan and more of the midrange plan. This is the best delver deck in the midgame, so that's where we should be trying to shine.

[iostream]

I completely agree with your sentiment. My current setup is 2 flusterstorm,2 disfigure and 2 dimir charms, with one less decay in the main. This has been quite helpfull in fighting creatures and cruises. More testing is certainly desirable though.

Have you found that Flusterstorm only targeting instants and sorceries is a problem? I imagine Jace and hardcast equipments are going to be two of our biggest targets

[Goddik]

Yes, Jace and equipment is generally a problem. I have a continous headache with the esper deathblade deck, because it attacks from so many angles, and both Jace, Nemesis and batterskull can be issues. I would love to hear some thoughts on bringing down that menace. I don't really know whether to stick to a tempo plan in the matchup or try to go bigger with jaces and sweepes or something similar

Flusterstorm compared to pierce
yes, it is definately an issue as compared to spell pierce that you can't hit equipment and planeswalkers. The problem with spell pierce is that it, in my experience, is really easy to play around, with daze and just laying lands. The question is not pierce or fluster, but fluster or thoughtseize/stifle. Flusterstorm is REALLY good at beating force on your own cruises, and can usually nap a cruise, sometimes together with a daze. It is also really easy to hit opposing plows and bolts with it, so it is it usually does something usefull.

[FoolofaTook]

@FoolsOfATook
I think we should be less on the land destruction plan and more of the midrange plan. This is the best delver deck in the midgame, so that's where we should be trying to shine.

So what can you add in the 5 flex slots that are mid-range bombs? Because my experience with playing a mid-range control BUG is that it has great matchups against much of the meta but it has some areas, like vs Tribal, where it is just too slow and the speed issue is very hard to fix out of the SB because you're down a game already and one bad draw can sink you.

[David Kaplan]

Congrats. I think the maindeck is perfect, the 1 Dimir Charm is working out nicely for me. How often would you have preferred Hydroblast or Divert to Chill?

Another SB option I've found to be very strong is Pithing Needle. Specifically against Miracles (Top), Elves (Symbiote/Heritage/Ranger), D&T (Vial/Stoneforge/Mom) and Sneak Attack.

[exallium]

So what can you add in the 5 flex slots that are mid-range bombs? Because my experience with playing a mid-range control BUG is that it has great matchups against much of the meta but it has some areas, like vs Tribal, where it is just too slow and the speed issue is very hard to fix out of the SB because you're down a game already and one bad draw can sink you.

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out. I'm interested in trying the 4x Stifle 1x Dimir Charm, given I can get my hands on some stifles. I only have 3 Seas, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou as far as BUG duals go, but I should be able to make it work (Maybe 3 Sea 2 Trop 1 Bayou?)

[KobeBryan]

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out. I'm interested in trying the 4x Stifle 1x Dimir Charm, given I can get my hands on some stifles. I only have 3 Seas, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou as far as BUG duals go, but I should be able to make it work (Maybe 3 Sea 2 Trop 1 Bayou?)

With the stifle build trop becomes your most important land

[exallium]

With the stifle build trop becomes your most important land

edit: found a trop to borrow. Looks like I'm going to run Bob's list this weekend, with a small tweak to the board.

[FoolofaTook]

Yes, Jace and equipment is generally a problem. I have a continous headache with the esper deathblade deck, because it attacks from so many angles, and both Jace, Nemesis and batterskull can be issues. I would love to hear some thoughts on bringing down that menace. I don't really know whether to stick to a tempo plan in the matchup or try to go bigger with jaces and sweepes or something similar

Krosan Grip out of the SB is the answer to Batterskull. It's the answer to EoT problems with top and to top in general. It really is worth two slots in the SB. If the meta were different it might be a 1-of but with the heavy penetration of Miracles and Stoneblade, which may be 20% of the meta between them at this point it's worth it.

[doombot]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

[iostream]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

4 is a lot of mana, especially in the Wasteland mirror... I think it's a good idea that's probably maximized in a slower BUG deck, but perhaps it is good here, too. Test it!

[KobeBryan]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

Notion thief is not for the mirror. You don't have enough lands to cast it.

Notion thief is for miracles.

[doombot]

How is it a lot of mana when you aren't even going to be cruising until turn 4 or 5?

[iostream]

How is it a lot of mana when you aren't even going to be cruising until turn 4 or 5?

Because we run only 19-20 lands, four of which are Wastelands, and our own lands are being hit by our opponent's Wastelands in the mirror. We also set back our own land drops a lot with Daze. It often happens that you have to operate off of one land for many turns.

[Thorhammer]

Forgot to say that yes it is 61 card but it preforms realy good. I was wondering is 3 stifles ok or it must be 4 and what do you thing about 2 thoughtseize is it better than hymn or maybe dimir charm insted ?
Thx again

I don't think Thoughtseize is well positioned right now since people just shrug it off and draw three with Treasure Cruise. Two hymn's have been good for me but i am debating switching to Stifle just to make people fear it. Hymn to Tourach is just pretty backbreaking against so many decks.

[eostby]

I've moved my Hymns to the board. I figure the places you need them most you can bring them in from the board, and they aren't just dead in your deck game 1 against other TC decks. Of course, I did promote a Liliana main deck to make this move, so I'm a little less concerned about discard anyway.

[sharke]

I've moved my Hymns to the board. I figure the places you need them most you can bring them in from the board, and they aren't just dead in your deck game 1 against other TC decks. Of course, I did promote a Liliana main deck to make this move, so I'm a little less concerned about discard anyway.

I dont thing thoughtasize is less good becaouse of a tc.he will always take something good, special vs miracle, stonforge, combos... And burn also, i mean better losse 2 lifes than 3,4 or evan more(price of progres)And extra provide us a information that is realy imoprtant now. And stifles is realy good against so many thing. Mana denial,protecting our land, miracle, sfm,even prevent delver from fliping, maybe give us time against jtms.and it seems to me that only 12 threat is a little small for putting konstant presure.
Feel free to corekt me .
Again sry for grammer.

[Borealis]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

Yeah, I threw a copy in my "SB pile" last night while putting the deck together, for funsies. But I think people are generally right, 4 mana is a lot in the mirror, and against any Delver deck really. It's not even getting to 4 mana, so much as being able to hold it up without raising suspicion. But to be sure, getting to 4 mana in time to "counter" their Treasure Cruise is also a bit dicey. I'm still going to test it though, as I think a lot of the UR decks are just cutting Wasteland and Stifle altogether, am I wrong? With Treasure Cruise literally EVERYWHERE now, the pay off might be worth the heftier mana cost. Almost a poor man's Jace now.

Unfortunately, it doesn't counter Dig Through Time, which is pretty relevant. If it did that, it might actually be good enough to justify a slot, since it could come in against Combo/Control AND the mirror. Either way, it's going to feel REAL good reminding people that card exists again! :)

I think Thoughtseize is fine, but not amazing. It doesn't do much against UR Delver or Burn, and really any deck with Cruise or Dig can overpower it in the later game. But early on it's still as good a tool as always. Liliana is similarly not amazing in a TC-infested field, but I think she's still fine as a 1-of in your main or side as long as there are enough fair and/or combo decks that still struggle with her. I'm going to run Bob Huang's exact list for testing first, but if I wanted to have a 13th threat right now, I'd actually consider Sylvan Library. It ensures you can find your Treasure Cruise first, and it's hard for many decks to remove. But more than likely, it's best to just stick with the SB Creeping Tarpit as an extra threat, and any planeswalkers or Notion Thiefs that I can fit in there. With Treasure Cruise, it's not hard to find another threat when necessary these days.

[CroSS.24]

So here's the list I used last week to win a mox sapphire and my 2 byes for gp jersey

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Spells (28)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise


Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Disfigure
2 Divert
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse


All I really did was swap out Dark Confidants for treasure cruise. I don't know which I actually prefer. Treasure cruise is very nice at rebuilding the hand right away, but dark confidant has always been a great card for me. I do plan on running treasure cruise for the foreseeable future though. I have been very happy with the main deck. And as far as stifle goes for being a "surprise" people still don't expect it out of this deck. If more people start playing stifle it will be expected, but as of right now it is still a surprise.