[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[eostby]

Sharke, I'm not even running Thoughtseize, and Hymn is a slightly different card anyway. 2 at random =/= 1 chosen.

[Dragonslayer_90]

All I really did was swap out Dark Confidants for treasure cruise. I don't know which I actually prefer. Treasure cruise is very nice at rebuilding the hand right away, but dark confidant has always been a great card for me.

So this may sound crazy at first by why not play both treasure cruise and dark confidant? My friend has a European friend who did well at tournament doing this: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15005&iddeck=111213. Also, another friend told me that LSV did something similar except played bob and cruise in a grixis Delver shell and did well with it in a daily or two. Might be worth investigating what most people deem a nonbo.

[Manipulato]

A BUG Delver list made yesterday Top 8 through 10 rounds of legacy.

http:// http://magic.wizards.com/en/...sts-2014-10-25

The list is missing 4 Delver by the way.

I think the manabase is not optimal because of the 2 bayous and the 1 Pulse MD is a bit surprising. He's also only playing 1 TC and 3 Thoughtseize which a lot of people here are against...

Thoughts?

[Grand Superior]

Lol @ "Death-Rite Shaman" being counted as "other." I suppose even Wizards thinks of him as a one mana planeswalker.

I'm glad we got a Team America list in the top 8. While I have liked Maelstrom Pulse as a one-of catchall for preboard games, I do disagree with some of his deckbuilding decisions (less than 9 fetchlands, Spell Pierce maindeck, only 1 Treasure Cruise, any TNN). Can't argue with results, I suppose. If a Delver deck has to win today, I hope it's his.

On another note, I'm playing at an event today. Currently running the stock 55 with 4 Thoughtseize + 1 Liliana as my flex slots. I'm not 100% happy with Thoughtseize but it seems better than Hymn in the Treasure Cruise world and I'm still unconvinced by Stifle's effectiveness in this deck. I did bring my Stifles just in case I wanted to change at the last minute.

[iostream]

Here's a question: is True Name-Nemesis any better or worse after TC? I generally have not liked it, but with edict effects and sweepers at an all time low, perhaps a mirror breaker would be good? I've seen it in a few successful BUG lists lately.

[btm10]

Here's a question: is True Name-Nemesis any better or worse after TC? I generally have not liked it, but with edict effects and sweepers at an all time low, perhaps a mirror breaker would be good? I've seen it in a few successful BUG lists lately.

I like it just as an additional threat, for what it's worth. Sometimes you just need to block an opposing Tarmogoyf, or have an unblockable creature, or have something that's resistant to removal. I tried Clique as threat #13, but TNN is just better.

[eostby]

I like it just as an additional threat, for what it's worth. Sometimes you just need to block an opposing Tarmogoyf, or have an unblockable creature, or have something that's resistant to removal. I tried Clique as threat #13, but TNN is just better.

I actually have 1 TNN and 1 VClique main as threats 13 and 14. Most of the time, they're basically the same creature, but they both have advantages and disadvantages.

[Gunseng]

I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.

I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

[YamiJoey]

-4 Daze
+1 Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Clique
+1 Force

That would be my advice. Daze is really bad. They will play around it in the early game and won't need to late. It's done it's job by simply existing in the format, so you can play your high impact cards. Taxing doesn't work that well on them. They just make land drops until they can pay for whatever tricks you have, and it leaves you holding a Pierce up instead of dropping a relevant threat.

I'd board like this, and just remind you not to make Terminus good. If they 2-1 you with a Terminus you can forget about it. You have methods of fighting the CA, it's just that they deal with threats so efficiently. If you can keep them 1-1ing and sneak in some 2-1's like Hymn or Liliana (sort of) then you're gravy. Also, never Sacrifice Liliana. Her -2 and -6 must be used sparingly. They topdeck super well with a Top in play, but keeping cards like Brainstorm from being very good is key, and you'll find a Needle or Rod eventually.

You could also pull out a Decay, but I'm not sure you need to. It's not very good G2.

EDIT: Also; is there nothing better than Chill? It seems super weak to draw it late.

[JohnBell]

-4 Daze
+1 Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Clique
+1 Force

That would be my advice. Daze is really bad. They will play around it in the early game and won't need to late. It's done it's job by simply existing in the format, so you can play your high impact cards. Taxing doesn't work that well on them. They just make land drops until they can pay for whatever tricks you have, and it leaves you holding a Pierce up instead of dropping a relevant threat.

Why you prefer FoW versus UWr Micracle? Two for one is really bad...
Do you play Team America? Can you post there your list?

Also; is there nothing better than Chill? It seems super weak to draw it late.

I test Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast for Blood Moon. Is a bad idea?

[btm10]

Why you prefer FoW versus UWr Micracle? Two for one is really bad...
Do you play Team America? Can you post there your list?

It's pretty easy to get them playing off the top with Top, especially if you're running Hymn (though honestly, not the biggest fan of Hymn in this matchup, or at all anymore, really). You only care about 4-6 cards out of their whole deck (Jaces and Entreats) after about turn 4, but stopping those cards is critical. If your opponent is Hellbent, the CA doesn't matter because they can't effectively fight a counterwar over their only win conditions.

I test Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast for Blood Moon. Is a bad idea?

BEB is pretty narrow. Grip, Golgari Charm, and Abrupt Decay should be enough.

I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.

If Clique is fulfilling your needs, that's great. It's just too fragile in matches where I want a more robust threat. I run one in the board, and it's great in lots of matchups, but not all of them.

I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

If Miracles is giving you problems, I'd change the maindeck is follows:
-4 Hymn
-1 Land
+1 Force
+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Liliana
+2 Spell Pierce

and the sideboard as:
-1 Force
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library or Zur's Weirding
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

Then postboard you change:
-4 Daze
-2 Wasteland
-1 Liliana
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Sylvan Library or Zur's Weirding
+1 Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

Like I said above, you don't care about Terminus, especially with 9 Fetches. Put your guys on the bottom, and just shuffle your library afterward. I generally don't run more than 2 creatures out against them at once, and use cantrips to make sure I have backup threats in my hand for when Terminus comes. Stop Top when you can, but don't worry if you can't. Liliana backed up by countermagic - especially Force and Dimir Charm - is backbreaking, and recently conventional wisdom among Miracles players has shifted to not putting much emphasis on countering her. If she connects, be judicious with her +1 (and don't ultimate her at 6), but even something as crude as triple Stone Rain can swing the game hugely in your favor by turning Daze and Pierce back on. Liliana + Sylvan Library means you basically can't lose, as does Zur's Weirding.

In my experience the matchup ranges from 50/50 against good Miracles players to pretty lopsided against bad ones. I have a Sylvan Library and a Weirding in my board (a few pages back) but that's because I have a lot of slow decks and Sneak and Show in my local meta, as well as the mirror (where Library is excellent), but both (especially Weirding) shine in the Miracles matchup.

[o_boogie]

Gunseng, your list looks fine. For Miracles I would side -4 Daze, -2 Wasteland; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Force of Will, +2 Spell Pierce. If your opponent sides out Counterbalance I would also consider -2 Abrupt Decay; +2 Golgari Charm.

I have found the best way to beat Miracles is a combination of things:
1) Do not overextend into Terminus.
2) It is worth fighting over Top; it is hard to beat a resolved Top. Miracles is significantly worse without it.
3) It is always worth fighting over Jace and Entreat. Since the deck is so threat light I find its better to fight over these with permission and just accept the fact that they will be killing your threats with STP and Terminus. You can always rebuild with Brainstorm/Ponder/Cruise.
5) Hymn to Tourach is fantastic. Yes it can suck late game if your opponent has a Top and is hellbent. However, if you can fire it off early it has the potential for tremendous blowouts.
6) Use Deathrite Shaman aggressively to reduce any value that could be gained from Snapcaster Mage.
7) Vendilion Clique is very important; it can kill a Jace with EOT flash or remove a miracle'd Terminus.

After practicing against the matchup enough you'll be fine.

[SansSerif]

How is Flusterstorm against Miracles? I would think it would be good early (STP, brainstorm, early terminus), but it will not stop any of their haymaker after turn 5 or so. Late game it would only be good to win counter wars

I would be siding out FOW for Flusterstorm - is that worth it?

[btm10]

Flusterstorm can't hit Blood Moon or Jace, so I'd rather have Force.

[Thorhammer]

I would also like to emphasize Creeping Tar pit. It is tough for them to Terminus since they can't naturally miracle it and gets by Jace (kills him actually).
Dimir Charm is also really good against them as you only care about there nasty sorceries. True Name nemesis is also a threat that is good against them since they can only terminus it. I would put a little more emphasis into countering Terminus since if you can get one out of the way it usually means another good chunk of damage. The matchup seems to be very player dependent. There are good miracles players and bad ones. Rookie miracles players just have too many intricacies to remember and they will give you mistakes to work with more often. Good miracles players are just tough to beat no matter what you play.

A resolved Zur's Weirding and Miracles enters scoop phase.

[Gunseng]

Thanks for the great advice guys, I really appreciate it.

[FoolofaTook]

I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.

I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

If you want to beat Miracles replace the hand disruption with hard counters. Some combination of Dimir Charm, Counterspell and Spell Snare main. A Krosan Grip or two in the SB.

Hand disruption is worth nothing against Miracles after turn 4 because by then they're playing on the top of their library and waiting for an inflection point.

[JohnBell]

A resolved Zur's Weirding and Miracles enters scoop phase.

Four in too much mana...
Arcane Laboratory is a bad idea? can be useful versus Elves, ANT etc...

[phazonmutant]

I played Team America at Legacy Champs. Had a good run until round 5, then hit the bad end of variance. I ended up dropping at 5-3 since the tournament started two hours late, the round turnover was atrocious, and I would prefer to eat and drink than try to win $50 credit.

I've been testing Stifle, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. Of the three, I still prefer Hymn. The Stifle lists have a somewhat shaky manabase with only 6 or so duals - I find that I get knocked off black too much when it matters. Also holding up Stifle can be tough and I've found Pierce to be pretty atrocious right now in tempo decks. That being said, I've never liked or been especially good with the Pierce/Stifle tempo decks. Thoughtseize is trading one-for-one when most decks are either incredibly redundant or can reload off the top or both. Hymn is incredibly disruptive, can hit lands, and follows the plan of denying them resources to function.

So that choice informs most of the rest of the decklist. Other changes are because of Cruise. It encourages more Forces main, less discard, more lands (because the easiest way to stop Cruise is to prevent the opponent from casting spells), and fewer Dazes (decks tend to be more resource-heavy, including lands).

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secretes
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.

R1 Esper Ashiok Control - His deck was bad and he was mediocre. 1-0, 2-0
R2 Old U/R Delver - He had Lavamancers and friends instead of Cruise. Beat him easily with Goyfs preboard, and with my hateful board post. 2-0, 4-0
R3 BUG Control - He mulliganed both games and didn't really get to play magic between Hymn and Wasteland. 3-0, 6-0
R4 Deathblade - Game 2 he beat down with True Names for days, but Games 1 and 3 I Wasted and Hymned him into oblivion. His greedy manabase came back to bite him. 4-0, 8-1
R5 Threshold - I win 2 interesting games. I didn't give him a chance to Stifle any lands, and played around Bolt and Pierce when I had to win a game at 4 staring down Goyfs. 5-0, 10-1
R6 UR Delver - Games 1 and 3 he won with Pyromancer. I didn't flip Delver for 5 turns, and still could have drawn Golgari Charm or Jitte to win. Game 2 he Fireblasted Goyf... 5-1, 11-3
R7 Reanimator - Turn 1 Griselbrand on the play. Done here. Next game I have Cage, he bricks on Show and Tells. Game 3 I don't Force a second Careful Study (I Dazed the first), and he had Force protection for his Exhume next turn. Probably a mistake there. 5-2, 12-5
R8 I really can't remember this match. I lost and dropped.

[ESG]

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.