Played on Prague Eternal and ended up 10th. (144 participants)
My list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dimir Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
R1: UB Tezzeret 2:0 (in the first game he started with Leyline of the Void and plays Ancient Tomb with Chalice of the Void set on 1. Nice start in the tournament ... saw no decay whole game, eventually won the game on back of Lili)
1:0
R2: Elves 2:1 (Delver decided to flip early and also Abrupt Decay just decided to present itself, also third game I saw Engineered Plague)
2:0
R3: Reanimator 2:1 (Shamans did their thing)
3:0
R4: Show and Tell 2:0 (Emrakul on battlefield is sad if Lili resolve)
4:0
R5: Miracles 2:0 (I guess it was just bad luck for Miracles)
5:0
R6: URW Delver 1:2 - (g1 I just won, g2 beaten to death with Lavamancer with Jitte equipped - no decay and g3 my misplay seal the deal for him)
5:1
R7: Omnitell 1:2 (g1 hymn+hymn, g2 and g3 he just drew more counters then I did)
5:2
R8: Dredge 2:0 (well outside of shamans and 1 copy of Surgical Extraction no GY hate, but it was just engough, was forced to decay my own delver in order to get rid of bridges)
6:2
Deck performed well, Hymns are still good. TC seems strong but sometimes it is .. oh well.
Last edited by mosaic; 11-14-2014 at 04:21 AM.
I'm playing Team America and GPNJ and couldn't be more excited!
I've been having quite a bit of luck with the deck over the 1.5 years or so playing all of the different builds and combinations of flex slots that have come along. I've played everything from Hymn to Thoughsize to a mix of both to no discard and Stifle. The other flex cards and creatures slots have been mixed up overtime from Tombstalker to Bob to True-Name to 3 Lilianas main.
I recently won a small GPT event to get 2 byes for the GP running the stock Bob Huang main deck (4 Stifles and 1 Dimir Charm). I also played this list to a top 32 finish at SCG Minneapolis a few weeks back so I'm pretty confident that it is an extremely good deck. However, I'd certainly be comfortable playing different cards in the flex slots if it would be correct for the expected meta (if that is actually possible in a 5000 person Legacy event).
For reference, the sideboard I've been using is
3 Disfigure
2 Gogari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare (lots of good 2 drops running around. Rest in Piece/Counterbalance/Goyf/Young Pyro/Price of Progress. This has been an MVP and would recommend running as a 1 of!)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Blast
If anyone else has read the SCG Premium articles and articles from other sites that have been posted this week, pretty much EVERYONE is recommending playing UR Delver for this event. Obviously I'm not changing decks at this point, however I'm wondering if a different main deck configuration may be better against the impending flood of UR Delver.
Stifle has been great since it has game in most matchups, however very weak against UR Delver. It does get boarded out a lot since better cards come in, however it is a great game 1 card. For the 5 flex slots I'm thinking of going with 2 Dimir Charm, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disfigure.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this change and how it would affect the UR Delver matchup. Are there other cards I should be considering?
Am I over-thinking things at the last minute?
Hey seamonkey. I too am excited about this weekend. I'm a little nervous about the UR Delver matchup as I haven't tested against it extensively, but my record was 3-0 in games against it last weekend at a GPT. (One player took a game loss for misregistering his deck.) Neither player seemed insanely good with the deck, and they never got the "nut draw" against me, but I feel like the matchup is probably fine. Assuming they don't just run you over with a killer hand on the play, we just answer all their threats and take care to play around Fireblast and Price.Originally Posted by seamonkeyman
As for the rest of the field, I'm well aware that Miracles is a tough matchup, as well as the Blade decks, but those always come down to outplaying the opponent and they tend to be very interactive and interesting games. For this reason I'm not too worried about them, I just hope I play well when the time comes. Sneak and Show is very draw-dependent, and whoever has the most countermagic generally wins, and we do a lot better with a turn 1 Delver than any other threat. Similarly, Storm is very scary but also very beatable, especially with Flusterstorms, Discard, and Pierces in the deck. I liked Stifle there, but it's pretty easy for them to just snatch it away right before comboing with a discard spell. They generally know your hand due to Gix probe and Discard, but they can't play around countermagic as well as Stifle. My primary concerns beyond these matchups are stuff like Maverick/Taxes, Elves!, and other decks that attack from different angles (Enchantress, Stax, etc.). Stifle is a great card, but right now I want all my cards to trade well in all matches. Hence, I'm running Thoughtseize.
That said, I wouldn't want to weaken myself too much to combo/control in game 1, which is why I'd be wary about including something like Disfigure in my starting 60. It's fine against Blade decks, but does stone nothing to Miracles and Combo. If you really want the 1-mana removal, it's a fine card to start, but I'm pretty happy with just having 3 copies in my board and using the maindeck for better slots. I am, however, tempted to run a 2nd Spell Pierce in the main over one of my Nemesis spots. It's a very tough call. Nemesis is great vs. UW decks and any Delver mirrors, but doesn't do much against combo. Pierce is good against almost every deck besides the creature-heavy builds, namely Elves and Maverick/Taxes. I think that decision will come pretty last-minute this week, after some good discussion on the ride down with our secret weapon passenger, Mr. Ari Lax. Has to count for something that I've got a pro tour champ in the car with me right?
For reference, my current iteration:
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod and/or Pithing Needle
3 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
UR Delver is close to a walkover for BUG Delver at this point. I've played various BUG lists in competition since UR Delver became a thing and I'm 5-1 in matches against them at this point.
Your cards are just better than their cards on a 1-for-1 basis. If the matchup is really causing problems for you then go with 2 BEB's in the SB.
I see the blue triangle at this point as Stoneblade >> BUG Delver >> UR Delver >> Stoneblade.
Stoneblade can't keep anything on the board early against UR Delver and so they get run over until they resolve a TNN. Even then the TNN doesn't help against a flipped Delver. Stoneblade's discard is less valuable against UR Delver because the average value of UR Delver's cards is lower and so the trade of a Thoughtseize for one of those cards is much lower.
Against BUG Delver UR Delver gets the early strikes but can't sustain once Abrupt Decay and Dimir Charm come online. They have no good way to get rid of Goyf and DRS lets us come back from low life totals against them.
BUG against Stoneblade is kind of miserable because they have high-value assets to put out in DRS, SFM, TNN, Jace and sometimes Liliana, they get the 2-for-1's with the equipment and SFM and they have Thoughtseize, which trades off well with our cards in terms of value and StP which removes Goyf easily. Also, we're a solid turn slower than UR Delver so Stoneblade's slower plan doesn't hurt them like it does against UR Delver.
Thoughtseize trading poorly against UR was one of my biggest concerns and a dealbreaker in my mind since UR Delver is so huge... Aren't all their cards more or less interchangable? It's a glorified burn deck. Trading 2 life for a random card seems actively counterproductive to me. But I haven't played the matchup much, so perhaps I'm missing something. It seems to me that TS is really only fantastic versus combo and possibly Stoneblade if you don't have anything better to bring in.
Have you tried just running both maindeck and moving the discard to the side? It seems like in the vast majority of matchups, either Pierce or Disfigure is really good, and you can just shuffle away whatever isn't relevant with BS, etc. The reason why this seems particularly cool is because both are great versus UR Delver. Pierce is much more likely to stop their big cards like TC/Price/Fireblast than Daze is, while the extra removal allows you to better control Pyromancer before it goes out of control. In any case, having more removal compensates for the fact that Pierce can't hit creatures.
Speaking of Daze being unable to stop big spells - I know people have complained in previous pages about Daze being less good than it has been in the past with games going longer, decks running more mana sources, and so on (side note: UR runs either 16 or 17 actual lands that can produce or fetch mana. How on earth is it the case that we are running even fewer given how much bigger we're going?!). But after a lot of testing, I'm starting to wonder if Daze is actually actively counterproductive. We ideally want to cast the stuff we Delve for as soon as we Delve for it. If that's the case, then why are we hindering our own mana development? Wouldn't it be better to run slightly harder countermagic like Spell Pierce which doesn't require us to pick up a land?
I know having free interaction is really important, it just seems like everyone is going big in this meta - Delver decks are running way more lands than they used to. The popular combo decks right now all have access to huge amounts of mana (Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves, etc). Stoneblade and Miracles are as popular as they've ever been, and both of them don't care at all about Daze...
Daze has always been a love-hate card in the list. It's really good on the play and potentially back-breaking for the opponent on a T1 Delver, since it punishes hard for not waiting to play around Daze. On the other hand it just blows chunks on the draw and half the time you're on the draw game 1.
I've done a lot of playing without Daze since Treasure Cruise was spoiled and I'm still not sure if it's good or bad overall in the list in this meta. The Spell Pierces are really good against some lists and not so good against others. My tribal matchups, which have always been bad game 1 got worse without Daze.
If you're playing Stifles and Wastes then Daze is a no-brainer. Not sure in the other configurations.
Here's my philosophy with Seize vs. something like Disfigure maindeck. Seize will almost always hit something relevant in game 1, and also gains you information. It can be a dead draw in the later game, but in your opener it's basically gas against every single deck. Knowing what to play around and your opponent's actual strategy early in a match is huge. With everyone playing Gix Probe, we'd be at a reasonable disadvantage without the information garnered from any Peek spells in our deck. But more importantly, it takes their best card and sets you up for a longer game in most cases.
Thoughtseize might not be the best card against UR Delver, but it's far from the worst. It lets you know their hand, so you can prioritize counterspells for their spells/Cruise, or removal for their threats. It also lets you know if they are land-heavy or not, so you can Wasteland aggressively if it's prudent. But the key strategy for us against UR Delver is to remove all their threats. Seize can assist with taking a threat without costing you a 2-mana removal spell or something like Force, so you can then save it for a later Cruise attempt. If they are light on gas, you just take their Cruise or whatever powerful spell they might be sandbagging, be it Price, Force, Blast, whatever. Paying 2 life and 1 mana is still fine against this deck, even if it is a tempo-negative play. They aren't actual burn, they need to kill us with creatures and spells to win. And we can easily mitigate the damage from a single Seize. Put it this way though, do you want to risk them resolving that Pyro or Fireblast, or would you pay 2 life to know they won't play the spell at all? Most of their threats are worth more than 2 life.
The reason I'm so high on Seize vs. Disfigure is that Disfigure is stone dead in many matchups. Miracles, Sneak/Show, Storm, Enchantress, Belcher, etc. We already have Abrupt Decay as a potential dead card, but its flexibility and power when it's not dead mitigate this risk. What we don't want is more dead cards that don't pitch to Force. And while Delver decks and Blade decks are always going to be 50/50 in game 1, it's very easy to skew ourselves into a losing position against combo if we don't keep our disruption count high. Ditto for Miracles. The only decks I really want maindeck Disfigure against are Maverick, Taxes, and Elves. And again, Thoughtseize is still a card in all of those matchups. Basically Seize does everything, while Disfigure only does some things. In this Treasure Cruise world, I especially want Seize to try and win that race as often as possible. It's pretty bad when your opponent goes on a Cruise and you're left behind holding a dead card in addition to the lead they just took.
Again, Disfigure main is a fine meta call, especially at a smaller tournament. But this GP is likely to be 4000+ players, and you have NO idea what you might face the first half dozen rounds. Similar to Dimir Charm, Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce are very flexible, and help catch a lot of random chaff in a field as diverse as Legacy. Disfigure is just asking to be an awkward card in the wrong spot. Brainstorm mitigates these things to some extent, but you don't always have that luxury.
I shaved a Daze myself for a copy of Spell Pierce, and so far I like it. I wouldn't drop below 3 though, as it's still one of the best ways to protect your first threat on the play, and it's still a vital part in interacting with your combo opponents. Without Daze, we only have FoW for free counters, and there's still too much that can go wrong on turns 1-2 to be so exposed. Hell, I watched Brad Nelson play turn 1 Blood Moon against BBD in the videos on SCG this week. Yikes. People might be playing a few more lands, but it's nothing drastic. BUG runs 19 lands over RUG's old 18/19 standby. UR cut Wasteland but they only run 16/17 lands. UWR decks might crest over 20. But we still have a playset of Wasteland, and people still need to play spells on the first couple turns. Daze is still very relevant. Side note, keep in mind that the reason UR Delver runs so few lands is that nearly all their spells cost colored mana, outside stuff like Pyro and Price of Progress, so Wasteland does little to help them play spells. In our case, We still cast our 2-3 drops off Wasteland, so we still run more lands than them, however you slice it. Wasteland also pays for Daze, incidentally. Also, Daze going to GY basically replaces the land it bounced when paying for Cruise, and likely you are just replaying the land next turn to generate mana again anyway. Sure, sometimes it puts you behind a bit, but that's how Legacy goes. Trade resources, make tough choices.
This argument makes a lot of sense to me. I'll have to test for myself, but I can see where you're coming from here.
I think this is basically where our difference in opinion is coming from.
Basically, I think that choices about what goes in the maindeck are basically dictated by what is good versus the top decks of the format, in particular - UR Delver. When we Decay a Swiftspear or Thoughtseize a Pyroblast, I don't think that's good for us. UR is trying to beat us on mana efficiency, and those kind of exchanges play right into their game. Without some kind of efficient 1-mana way to interact with their board (like Disfigure) in the main, I feel like we're not adequately respecting the deck. Basically every knowledgable pro insists that this is the thing to be afraid of, and regardless of whether or not it's the real deal (and just to give my opinion, it definitely is), that fact alone makes it the clear Level 1 deck of the format that everyone is going to try to play. So even in a 4000+ player GP, I think it's pretty safe to say that given all the UR hype, you're going to play against it a lot, and so metagaming versus it is not unreasonable a priori.
As for Enchantress and Belcher and whatever, the solution to those have always been the same: just win your first round or two. Those decks are never going to be successful in large enough numbers for you to care about them if you start the tournament off well, and if you do start well, you will be sad if you have not metagamed properly for the top decks. Conversely, if you lose your first three rounds and are playing against Belcher decks for the rest of the day, who cares what's in your maindeck, or for that matter, how well you do? To put it another way: there are plenty of things that BUG (or any deck, really) has few/no outs to - if someone resolves Polukranos or Butcher of the Horde or whatever against me, it will be a huge pain. It's obviously not worth giving up edges against that, though. If we scrub out due to sheer bad luck of being paired against a random thing, that's life.
So to answer the question differently: in my mind, among decks that are relevant, Disfigure is only totally dead versus Sneak/Show and Storm. Miracles usually plays a few creatures which can all be handled by Disfigure, so you probably can get some utility out of it. Against everything else (all the Delver decks, Stoneblade, Elves, D+T, etc.) it is great and exactly what you want, and I imagine those decks are collectively > 50% of the top tables. What percentage of the top tables are going to be Sneak/Show or Storm? Not more than 20%, I think...
Not every successful deck plays Daze, so this argument seems empirically false. I understand how Daze can prevent us from dying sometimes. I'm just curious about whether at the big-picture, strategic level it's the right thing to be doing with Treasure Cruise.
If you expect a lot of UR Delver, just add a Darkblast to the board.
It kills Pyro and unflipped Delvers in one shot, and there's always the upkeep hit for 1 and then dredge it back and main phase hit for the second, if you really need to kill a Swiftspear of flipped Delver.
It also fills up the yard nicely for our Cruises.
I really like Darkblast in the current meta (UR, Elves, D&T).
@iostream
While I agree that we generally are going to lose some tempo in our exchanges with UR Delver's threats, I don't think that's necessarily a problem in comparison with the possibility of having a dead card in other matches. I'm perfectly fine trading a Decay for a Swiftspear, as they generally will have put at least one or two spells into Prowess triggers, netting you a small information advantage. Their spells are a lot less gassy when they don't actually create a token or relevant prowess trigger, and there is nothing quite like nuking a 3/4 or bigger Swifty.
Thoughtseize costing a mana and 2 life is probably a bit worse, but again you are also gaining information, which could easily mean the difference in playing your spells more efficiently and/or stopping a critical threat from them (aside from the one you took with Seize). Obviously, the first thing we do is Swap out Seize for Disfigure from the board. But it's still a fine card in game 1, and is much more relevant than something like Disfigure vs. Miracles.
Speaking of, what cards does Miracles play in game 1 that are even close to relevant targets for Disfigure? Last I checked, they have 0 creatures and Entreat the Angels as the only creature-generator in the deck. Mayybe they run the Creature-heavy version and have a couple Snapcasters and Cliques, but that is a big if, and it's not the fight we want to be fighting against them. And while Disfigure might get a target if you're lucky, it's likely much worse than something like Thoughtseize is against Delver.
Now your logic about how the rounds of a GP go is a bit flawed. For starters, the reason that people play decks like Belcher, Enchantress, Dredge, etc. is exactly because people don't expect them. They don't simply disappear after the first few rounds, and often they outperform their numbers (i.e. a higher percentage of them are successful). You could win 5 rounds straight and still get paired against randomness. I played Enchantress in round 6 of the tournament last weekend. I played 12 post round 1. There is no way to dodge these decks or predict what decks you will play. The Day 2 metagame is admittedly going to be a lot more "solved", and certainly decks like UR Delver will represent a great portion of the field. But you can't guarantee anything on Day 1, or for any of your rounds really. Certainly after 15 rounds you will probably have seen 3+ Delver players, and a handful of the other top tier decks across from you. But you have to actually play all 15 rounds for that to even matter. I fully expect to play against Delver, Blade, Miracles, and Combo on day 1. The other 50% of decks I play could be literally anything.
Even if we exclude the fringe decks, the top of the field will look something like this, courtesy of Pat Chapin:
Delver 30.3%
Elves 10.0%
Miracles 7.9%
Maverick/Taxes 6.5%
Stoneblade 5.6%
Dredge 5.1%
Ad Nauseam 4.4%
Sneak and Show 4.2%
Burn 4.0%
Reanimator 3.3%
Infect 3.0%
Lands 2.8%
Omni-Tell 2.6%
Disfigure is pretty bad (or straight dead) against over 25% of these decks (Miracles, Dredge, ANT, Sneak, Reanimate, Lands, Omni). Sure, it has applications against Dredge and Miracles, but Thoughtseize is going to better almost every single time.
I'm all for metagaming, and 1 copy of Disfigure is not going to make a huge difference, so this probably isn't a discussion worth too much of our time. But the point is, I'm unwilling to play a card still that is so bad against over a quarter of the field. And while statistics are worth looking at, they don't actually end up having much effect on what you actually play at a tournament this big. You can't just win your first few rounds and expect no one playing fringe strategies will do the same. You also can't guarantee that you don't just play 3 Combo players in a row, just because fate. Again, while it's worth having a specifically tuned deck for a smaller inbred tournament or metagame like MODO, this is going to be the most diverse field of Legacy players on the East Coast in one room. I'd rather have flexibility than metagaming precision at a GP of this size in a Format this deep.
RE: Daze, I'm aware that not every winning deck plays Daze, but that statement is kind of shaky anyway. I didn't say that other decks should be playing Daze or else they risk being bad, I said that we do. We are the Daze deck. The only other decks that are so enthusiastic about free counters are combo decks, and your occasional Blade/Control player. But Delver uses Daze to protect it's creatures and to fuck with combo. It's an inherent part of our plan. Obviously we could cut it and maybe improve some midrange matchups, but then we risk losing our identity. Remember rule #1: don't play a worse something else. You cut Daze, add some more Pierces and stuff, and suddenly you're trying to play control when you're actually the aggro.
We need Daze for a variety of reasons. It backs up our FoW, it keeps Combo from going off on us immediately, it protects our threats while we're tapped out, and it synergizes with Wasteland. It slows our opponents down and punishes those who lose patience. We want to run on 2-3 lands all game long, and Daze is a big part of our ability to do this, as well as our ability to bounce lands to shuffle back later in the game. If I thought it was a solid idea to cut it completely, I'd gladly test a Daze-less build, but this close to the tournament I can't afford to make such a decision, even if I thought it was correct. I'm still unsure about shaving one, but there's no way I'm cutting the spell completely. People will play into Daze, pure and simple. Similar to Stifle, it's always going to buy you a blowout in a tournament, and that's how you get free wins. You can cut it during Sideboarding to tune the deck up better for whatever the need, but game 1 it's the ultimate catchall. Keep in mind that Pierce doesn't answer creatures. There is some merit to cutting Daze and still gaining advantage from people playing around it, but the reason people are scared of it is that it's good. How else can you counter that turn 1 threat from your opponent or protect your DRS/Delver on the play for only 1 card? You cannot.
RE: Darkblast. I considered the card too, as it's obviously great when you draw it early, but I felt it was a bit redundant with all the Disfigures in the board, and it doesn't answer a few major problems in the matchups you want it: Namely Insectile Abberation, Swiftspear, Deathrite, Nettle Sentinel, Stoneforge, True-Name, Lord of Atlantis, etc. I already have Golgari Charm to sweep x/1s, so I'm opting for a single Toxic Deluge to clean up all the rest. (I get that Darkblast can upkeep/draw kill an x/2, but that's so inefficient and easily gets blown out by a number of responses.) Darkblast is definitely good against Delver and Elves, but Deluge is probably just as good, while hedging better against a variety of other decks and tougher creatures.
One of the effects of playing BUG Delver is that people assume you are playing Daze and they play around that a large part of the time. So other than T1 and T2 Daze really doesn't have a big effect other than to pitch to FoW. Occasionally you'll get the right draw and circumstances to turn on Daze in the mid game but a lot of the time it's a dead draw for you.
If you don't play Daze you often get the only benefit available to you anyway: which is that people play a turn slower and give you incremental advantage because they're afraid of it.
On the flip side the number of 2 Daze hands that I've had to pitch on the draw has been significant. If you're looking at 2 Daze on the draw the rest of the hand has to be damn near perfect to make it a keeper. You can't pick up your 1st land drop against most lists to Daze their turn 2 2-drop and expect to have a lot of play into the mid-game.
I'm just not remotely convinced that it's a strong card in the list given the percentage of the time it's relevant vs dead in hand. If you're playing Stifles that's different.
Good luck to all the BUG players this weekend!
You can only do the Upkeep -> Draw Darkblast trick if they are tapped out and you expect zero interaction. Or else you are just straight dead. It's 2-mana and 2 cards to deal with one threat, and they can Bolt you in response to counter it. Which seems bad.
I also agree with Daze being a possible cut right now. I'm looking into being much less reactive as a deck going forward. Thoughtseize might seem bad at the moment, but it's probably better than Daze by miles, and cutting down to three Forces seems like a good idea. I'm probably going to look at doing a little tweaking, and possibly just upping the threat count, too. 4 Goyf + a Scooze or two?
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Bolt in response? How does that counter Darkblast?
And we may sometimes trade two cards for a guy who was killing us, but it also netted us 6 cards in the yard to delve away for Cruise. I have used it, and it was bonkers. I drew it in my opener both post board games, and it did soo much work. Keeping Disfigure or Decay behind for Swiftspears, and just filling the grave up while taking out all other guys for B was really strong.
@Asthereal, assuming you are trying to kill Swiftspear, they get a Prowess trigger. Basically, Darkblast is good, but doesn't solve all the problems, all the time. It can definitely be amazing, sometimes it feels like cheating it's so good, but getting locked into one of those situations where you need to cast it twice to get a single creature out of the way is exactly why I don't like it. If we didn't have stuff like Golgari Charm it would probably be a different story. And I could see one Darkblast taking the place of one Disfigure, which maybe I should try. Hmmm. Ok maybe you convinced me there.
I disagree that Daze has no value after Turns one and two. It's there as the last spell you play to win a counter war. It's there to fight opposing Dazes. It does pitch to Force or get shuffled away in the later game, but it can also still disrupt your opponent just long enough for you to get through for lethal, preventing them from doing enough in one turn to stabilize.
Daze is not dead on the draw. You use it sparingly, of course, but it can still be a critical way to have relevant answers on your opponent's first turns. Again, you might lead with a threat, and then Daze can still snag their Mystic. To me, that's perfectly acceptable, especially if your threat is a deathrite. Keep in mind DRS gets us ahead on mana as long as he sticks around, and Daze protects him.
Again, I would be wary of cutting down on Daze too much right now. Or Force for that matter. If we start cutting those cards for more counterspells that cost mana, or more discard, we risk simply being a turn too slow against every Delver mirror, specifically UR. UR will still play Daze, and will easily outpace us in tempo if we always have to pay 1 mana where they pay 0. Similarly, Force is too important right now with everyone playing Treasure Cruise and Dig. You don't want to be the guy with less Forces in the Ancestral Recall Showdown.
Daze gets better with Stifle, which is why I'm cutting one Daze for a Spell Pierce in my Stifle-less list. But I'm pretty skeptical that chopping it completely is the right call at all. Again, if I was convinced and had more time, I might test it. But for this weekend, I'm still showing up with Daze in my deck and not regretting it at all.
Oh that. Yeah well Swiftspear isn't the biggest issue usually.
They have to cast stuff to turn it into a decent threat.
And Deathrite eating guys can compensate for it.
Flipped Delvers are much more dangerous.
But we could also just use Disfigures. I actually play 3x Disfigure main right now.
I'm usually pretty scared of Swiftspear actually. 3/4 is not uncommon, and I've seen Spears as big as 5/6 or better attacking in tandem, which is terrifying. On average, it's probably at least a 2/3 every turn you let them attack, but it's not hard for them to make it a 3/4 when they know the coast is clear. Delver is scary too, but I would contend that Swiftspear is their best threat in the deck.
That said, I'm still considering now a Darkblast in place of the third Disfigure. While Disfigure is a little safer against a few creatures, Darkblast does have a significant upside. Not so much for UR Delver, but for the Maverick and Elves decks I might face, I think I will take a small gamble and play the more powerful card as well as the other options.
I think that's overkill for a matchup that's pretty favorable already (as of this writing, I'm 4-0 in matches against it). As for Darkblast, I haven't tested it, but I think I'd rather have it be the 3rd SB Disfigure or even the first Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Engineered Plague, or Deluge; killing X/1s and the occasional X/2 is fine, but we've got slots that do that already.
I haven't come to a definite verdict on the full disruption suite, but I definitely don't like more than one MD Disfigure. If I could make it to the GP, I'd probably play my SCG Columbus list -2 Hymn, +2 Thoughtseize or Pierce, make some small SB changes, and call it a day.
Darkblast isn't good against that deck at all. It kills an Unflipped Delver and THAT'S IT. They can protect Swiftspear, and generate value from Pyromancer anyway. Swiftspear and Aberration is a 2-1, and sometimes you won't even hit their guy with it. Play Disfigure. You can catch them with it when their guard is low (T1 Swiftspear, T2 Ponder) it costs less mana, and kills everything in one go. If they ever counter your second Darkblast, you lose the game on the spot. I've been playing a pair, and it seems good.
Deluge is a card I haven't thought about, and may be worth a look. Set it to 3 and you're going to have a good time, but you do end up Bolting yourself and killing basically all of your own dudes.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
BUG really does own UR at this point. They can't handle the move into the mid-game at all when we have uncounterable ways to remove all their permanents and they have no way to deal with Goyf.
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