Defender of the Value

[NiRVeS]

The idea seems intersting enough, and definitely fun to explore a bit. It'll probably end up being a worse Show & tell/Eureka variant, but what's Legacy if not the prime format to d!ck around with some funky old cards.

Anyway, just a small remark: Kiki-Jiki, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Iona and Mikeas all get bounced by Karakas. I think it would be wise to include at least something which can win vs that card. Just a single Ashen Rider would go a long way. Also pretty devastating when you fetch up a Resto Angel (or Kiki-Jiki) next to it. Terrastodon is also an option I like.

[Dr. No Face]

You get a lot of room back by cutting 3 emrakul and 4 show and tells. The whole idea behind oath is running such a small combo package.

The difference between this deck and Oath is that Oath can only afford to run the creatures it wants to get into play because there is a random chance associated with its effect. Defense, on the other hand, allows you to tutor up two creatures which insta-win for you.

[FTW]

The difference between this deck and Oath is that Oath can only afford to run the creatures it wants to get into play because there is a random chance associated with its effect. Defense, on the other hand, allows you to tutor up two creatures which insta-win for you.

This. Also, Oath costs 1G and is easier to activate while Defense requires significantly many more hoops to jump through. That means that a plan B seems prudent. Doesn't need to be Show and Tell. But some sort of plan that synergizes with the existing combo slots. Maybe Natural Order?

[bruizar]

I've actually had a list very similar to this sleeved up when swan song was just released, although my list wasn't that clean. Defense of the Heart is a worst version of sneak attack if you're going to build a deck with redundant bombs anyway. Sneak Attack doesn't require your opponent to have 3 creatures in play and gives haste. The only way I see DotH have a place in legacy is if you're going to cut your threats down to 4 defense of the heart and 2 creatures, PERHAPS a third in case one of them ends up in your hand. Otherwise, I'd just play sneak n show or omnitell variants.

ps: I also tried Natural Order, including with EOT Fetch for dryad arbor. It wasn't competitive enough, but perhaps you can come up with a better solution

[Darkenslight]

This. Also, Oath costs 1G and is easier to activate while Defense requires significantly many more hoops to jump through. That means that a plan B seems prudent. Doesn't need to be Show and Tell. But some sort of plan that synergizes with the existing combo slots. Maybe Natural Order?

I'd go R/G and run Sneak Attack and/or Through the Breach.

[FTW]

I'd go R/G and run Sneak Attack and/or Through the Breach.

But that involves running a high density of creatures. Others were arguing the whole point of a tutor engine like Defense is to run only 2-3 fatties, saving dead slots. Sneak cards need a higher density of fatties. At that point, why not just play G/U with Show and Tell instead and get better cantrips? Otherwise I think plan B should be something that doesn't drop a fatty from hand. Could just be beatdown.

[cherub_daemon]

How do you beat graveyard hate with that combo? MY suggestions would be Xenagos-Emrakul/Blightsteel Colossus and Kiki-Exarch, with your combo/control choices being Iona and Blazing Archon, depending on the matchup, though undoubtedly others will come up with better cards.

Since Defense of the Heart goes off during the upkeep, what about Laboratory Maniac and Leveler? No attack step, doesn't target, no graveyard required, but kinda vulnerable. You'd need draw ready in case someone goes after Maniac before the draw step, which is definitely going to happen. Might have to tweak the draw package to be all instant + Top, and maybe run Remand as an additional counter.

[Dr. No Face]

Since Defense of the Heart goes off during the upkeep, what about Laboratory Maniac and Leveler? No attack step, doesn't target, no graveyard required, but kinda vulnerable. You'd need draw ready in case someone goes after Maniac before the draw step, which is definitely going to happen. Might have to tweak the draw package to be all instant + Top, and maybe run Remand as an additional counter.

I would, but as you said, the combo is vulnerable, and if I don't have a counterspell in hand to protect the combo, I flat out lose. Thanks for suggesting!

[cherub_daemon]

I would, but as you said, the combo is vulnerable, and if I don't have a counterspell in hand to protect the combo, I flat out lose. Thanks for suggesting!

That isn't entirely true, since instant draw also "protects" the combo--good thing, too, given the existence of Abrupt Decay. I feel like being able to run a lot of draw as protection is a nice feature, rather than having to run bounce. But yes, the fact that it can kill you is an issue, and there are very few matchups where it will be better than Kiki/Exarch (Enchantress, mostly).

[IzexD]

That isn't entirely true, since instant draw also "protects" the combo--good thing, too, given the existence of Abrupt Decay. I feel like being able to run a lot of draw as protection is a nice feature, rather than having to run bounce. But yes, the fact that it can kill you is an issue, and there are very few matchups where it will be better than Kiki/Exarch (Enchantress, mostly).

The lab maniac combo is also good against death and taxes or any deck with karakus, you just need to be sure to have a brainstorm handy in case of removal. Although that and decks like enchantress are the only decks I would board that in.

[kavaki]

So not only is Xenagod in the deck, but it actually is a key to victory. The hell is up with that? Its pretty sweet however when you really look at it.

Im wondering when you bring in Kiki-Angel. What match-ups do you want it in?

[Dr. No Face]

The lab maniac combo is also good against death and taxes or any deck with karakus, you just need to be sure to have a brainstorm handy in case of removal. Although that and decks like enchantress are the only decks I would board that in.

True, guess I didn't think of it like that. Alright, I'll replace kiki-angel out of side for that.

[IzexD]

Update:
The deck is just about undefeated, 12 counters is good against any everything besides dredge and after board the match gets a hell of a lot better.

[kavaki]

Update:
The deck is just about undefeated, 12 counters is good against any everything besides dredge and after board the match gets a hell of a lot better.

I played it vs. ANT yesterday. Guy knew ANT but was out of practice.

G1: Brainstorm into Iona EOT, turns out he had a tutor in hand and would of won had I not done that.

G2: I didnt know how to side, so I cut Defense as it seemed a little too slow and put in Leyline and Nihil Spellbomb (I was playing 14 sb as I couldnt find any others). I drew into a fast hand, without Leyline though. It was force, SnT, Grisel, Pierce, city, fetch and preordain. T1 duress into force, T2 duress into pierce, T3 SnT into Grisel, with him dropping in Swarm. He passed back and I decided to swing. He stormed off next turn, but could only go for 20.

[NeZ]

Nice concept, especially the idea of Xenagos in Legacy. I would laugh my ass off if Emrakul is stopped by a bird token though.

[kavaki]

Nice concept, especially the idea of Xenagos in Legacy. I would laugh my ass off if Emrakul is stopped by a bird token though.

Annihilator would usually take care of that. The decks that play enough permanents to get around that likely would of fufilled our requirements for 3 creatures. I see S.S. more for other combo match-ups as well as control match-ups. Its the same use as in other decks, except the drawback in here isnt really too much of one.