Banned and Restricted list update

[ESG]

Announcement date: April 28, 2014

Standard, Modern, Extended, Legacy, Vintage:
No changes


http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/feature/297


I'm disappointed with this outcome, but it's basically what I was expecting, so I'm not surprised.

[Dzra]

I'm disappointed with this outcome, but it's basically what I was expecting, so I'm not surprised.

I know, right? Sleight of Hand is just asking for it.

[Megadeus]

Really would like to see an unban or two...

[Dice_Box]

Hands up anyone who is legitimately surprised by this announcement. *Crosses arms*

[Lemnear]

Hands up anyone who is legitimately surprised by this announcement. *Crosses arms*

Statistically, the most changes made during the last 12 years were within the June and September updates (aka not between blocks) so I had no hope for the one today anyways

[HSCK]

What really needed to be changed? 14 decks are taking up between 3% and 9% of the meta. When's the last time the 14 most popular decks in Legacy only composed 65% of all decks placing?

[Lemnear]

What really needed to be changed? 14 decks are taking up between 3% and 9% of the meta. When's the last time the 14 most popular decks in Legacy only composed 65% of all decks placing?

What about taking all decks into account that blend over from Delver into SFM and look at their total %? It hilarious to claim Esperblade and Deathblade independant decks

[HSCK]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

[bakofried]

If blue based Delver wasn't so oppressive in the US tournament circuit, it would be different. As is, the "blue shell" is coalescing more and more into Delver centric lists.

[Blastoderm]

If blue based Delver wasn't so oppressive in the US tournament circuit, it would be different. As is, the "blue shell" is coalescing more and more into Delver centric lists.

It would be kind of hilarious if Delver was banned. I would love to see all the butthurt.

[Higgs]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

In my view the difference between Deathblade and Esperblade is as minute as the difference between Snapcaster Miracles and RiP Miracles. Maybe less. Same strategy, slightly different tactics. Again in my view a lot of the Legacy decks seem to be slight variations of each other, the only differences being tactical differences/preferences which manifest themselves as different color splashes. This is especially present in Delver decks and blue-based SFM decks because of ease of splashability (not sure if this is a word) with these core strategies and cards in them. Although I occasionally play with these decks myself I would have expected (wished) banhammer to swing towards Delver, SFM or TNN.

[Megadeus]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing

To be honest, at least Delver promotes several different types of strategies as opposed to (and I can't believe I'm saying this after arguing for both to stay unbanned) SFM+TNN. Not saying it isn't strong (lightning bolt on an evasive stick? yeah, nothing strong about that >_>)

RUG, BUG, UWR, and UR Delver all play fairly different from each other as their common core (Delver+Force of Will+Daze+Brainstorm) isn't as demanding in terms of deck design as, say TNN+SFM Decks (SFM+TNN+Equipment+Force of Will+Brainstorm+other control elements), which all play fairly similarly in the sense that if you equip an equipment to TNN, chances are likely you will win.

[Lemnear]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

Heck, I swear ANT and TES are grouped together in statistics (some prople can't even tell the difference at all). Just look at SCG or mtgtop8.

It makes no sense to finely differ the SFM/Delver archetypes then, which are often more similar than storm variants (grouping storm together is kinda ok for me). Getting split up statistics just because you run SCM and Lingering souls instead of DRS and TNN is lying in regards of format diversity and performance. The strategy and core is exactly the same, you just make adjustments to playstyle and expected metagame ... basically the same way ANT and TES work, thus getting grouped together.

If you group together all variants in direction of DRS+Delver and another one with SFM+Delver you get a much more acurate image of the metagame. Higgs made a nice point about the diversity- & name-madness in regards to miracles. Why do people think they created something new by just switching 1-2 playsets within a working core?


Edit: There is no strategic variance within Delver. Just play Delver and throw all your disruption to your opponents head while riding the delver to victory

Edit 2: the Delver core is Delver+Brainstorm+Ponder+Daze+FoW+Wasteland aka 24/60 cards fix, add ~16 lands and have 40/60. From this point on you can splash up to 2 colors for additional threats (SFM, Goyf, TNN) or removal (Bolts, StoP, Disfigure) and your deck is finished

[Megadeus]

Not every stones forge deck is playing TNN, or even blue for that matter.

[iamajellydonut]

Wait, did Delver start comprising 70% of the meta when I wasn't looking?

[Barook]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing

TNN is the worst offender since it denies you most basic interactions in Magic.

What I dislike about Delver is how heavy they're favored when they're on the play. Early double Delver combined with denial is such a beating when you're behind mana-wise.

While SFM is also very powerful, it didn't cause permanent format shifts towards blue like TNN and especially Delver did.

Imho, Delver is the starting point where the format went into a wrong, overall less fun direction.

But what would happen if Delver was suddenly gone? Which decks would benefit from it, which decks would suffer (aside from Delver decks)? Wanting Delver gone is one thing, but would it improve the format?

[Higgs]

Not every stones forge deck is playing TNN, or even blue for that matter.

Yes, my categorization was basically for blue-based SFM decks.
Edit: Quote added because too late to reply.

[rufus]

...
Imho, Delver is the starting point where the format went into a wrong, overall less fun direction.
...

It seems like everything that's wrong with Black Vise is also wrong with delver (and there are other issues that apply just to delver.)

[twndomn]

Wizards gave the middle finger to all those ridiculous clowns waving the unban survival flag. No news is good news.