Delver is a world more oppressive than TNN. Black Vise is a really really bad Delver. Delver being gone would make some other aggressive creatures viable again, right now he so far outclasses every other aggro one drop it's sad. Many beards cite Abrupt Decay as a clear answer to it, but that assumes you can get a G and B while not getting stifled / wasted / hymned ... which while straight forward to do sometimes isn't viable on the draw vs. a natural flipped delver you might be at 9 before you even put the decay on the stack. Also it's telling that the best Abrupt Decay playing deck, also plays the stupid fucking delver.
I'd like to see Delver go away simply because Blue shouldn't have the most aggressive one drop. Blue should have the least aggressive/pushed creatures. Instead lately we've been seeing the opposite of that trend. I mean, between Delver, Snapcaster, Clique, and TNN, blue doesn't splash for creatures as much anymore as it does for removal, disruption, and burn. Which is just stupid. And kind of opposed the whole color wheel concept of blue as the "mind" color.
And what if Delver of Secrets were green or red? RUG and BUG and everything inbetween would still be pretty much the exact same decks. Blue doesn't have claim to either the most aggressive one drop or even the best one drop. The former is taken by numerous cards, and the latter is championed by Deathrite Shaman.Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Fact of the matter is that blue has the best shell. We know. Get over it. It's the reason blue lands dwarf all else in terms of value, and it's been this way for literally decades.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
It's an idiotic card regardless of color, but making it blue doesn't hurt. The xUG / Uwr decks still play no basics and cast it off a dual so if it were B or G or R it might not make much of a difference. Maybe one could argue that making it blue makes it more vulnerable (e.g. red blast). It's just a bad card for diversity in legacy, it synergizes too well with cards that are already at the top of the power curve (Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, Fetchlands).
I would have liked to see
Black Vise Unbanned
Mind Twist Unbanned
for a start and see where that goes ... 2 decent cards pointing in opposite directions, after they had zero impact for 6 months because the holy grail of Brainstorm/Delver/Ponder/ForceOfWill is worlds better then them they would join Land Tax as unbanned and forgotten and the DCI could unban some more cards that can't cope with tempo / delver decks.
I don't think it's a coincidence that RUG delver's smaller share of the meta the past 5-6 months goes hand in hand with an increase of rogue strategies doing well. I agree Delver is much more meta defining than TNN.
Are you hating on Blue or hating on Tempo strategy or both? Without Delver, RUG will still have Mongoose and Goyf. It'll probably replace Delver with some 1 drops. Seriously, people need to stop confusing between Color and Strategy.
Tempo strategy, let it be whatever combination of colors, will ALWAYS be there. It will Always have Daze, FoW, and Brainstorm as long as all 3 are legal. Don't be hating Delver the card, because you dislike Tempo strategy. Yes, I get it, Tempo decks are everywhere in United States and they seem to take down trophies. Is that because the lack of skilled pilots? or Is that because a banning/unbanning would be required to change the current meta?
Vise gives nothing positive to the format and just adds more games that are just torture to play. Power level wise it's fine, maybe. But I'd rather keep it out, there's 0% chance of the format becoming better if it was unbanned, but a nonzero chance of it becoming worse.
I don't have a problem with Tempo strategies. And yes, to answer an earlier question about my post, I would be much happier if Delver was red (it doesn't really fit in white). The tempo shell is fine, but having to splash for it's creatures makes the deck more limited and vulnerable than if it's just splashing for its disruption.
For example, if Delver was Red, and you accept the general thought that 3 colors is max for tempo, RUG would have the best creature base, while BUG would have better removal and disruption, but at the expense of better dudes.
TNN should have absolutely been White, and Delver and Snapcaster should have been Red. Change the colors of those cards and tempo decks still exist, but the overall format is a much more interesting place, and the decks that play the different creatures are significantly different from each other. Whereas now, with the best creatures all being Blue, the tempo shell now provides beats, free counters, and selection, which makes every tempo shell deck significantly more similar to each other and the overall meta less diverse and interesting.
That's why Delver and TNN should get banhammered. Because they're the wrong color and they make the game more similar than it should be. At the current rate, there will eventually be a "the Deck" for legacy based around the blue tempo shell. We're getting pretty close to that already, and I'm really, really not a fan.
FTFY
I'd like to note here that basically all non-Delver creatures played in RUG and BUG are nonblue.
Even if Delver and TNN are your "correct" color, Tempo strategies will Still be as Dominant as they are today. Even if you change color, the blue Tempo shell is Still as popular as they are today. You are overly exaggerating on the "incorrect color" factor. The truth is, tempo strategy cannot be stopped, not by banning Delver, not by banning TNN. If you ban Delver, people will just move to DRS/Lavamancer/Guide/Mongoose, because those're the next best 1 drop. The blue tempo shell will always be with Legacy, unless Wizard bans Brainstorm.
If your comprehension of Legacy is centered around "the deck" as the blue tempo shell, then you haven't been enlightened yet.
Twndomn,
You're really misrepresenting my position in order to have the argument you want instead of the one you have. Tempo is a valuable part of the Legacy meta, for one thing it really helps to keep combo decks more honest.
The problem with all of the best creatures in the format being blue is that it pushes the tempo shell in such a way that it significantly limits format diversity.
If Delver was Red and TNN was White, Zoo might run both of them, while a Tempo deck would have to pick and choose which one(s) it wanted, and if tempo ran both, said deck would be locked out of 'Goyf/TS/Bob/AD etc. That is a limiting choice on deck construction and format composition. When Delver and TNN are both blue, it limits the power of non-blue decks (when was the last time you saw a non-blue aggro deck?) while simultaneously pushing the entire format towards sameness and a universal Tempo shell.
I'm old enough to remember the last time Blue had every meaningful color pie ability. It sucked. The recent pushing of blue creatures by WotC is reaching the critical mass of having the same effect again. An entire day of Blue Tempo Shell vs. Combo vs. Mirror Matches isn't really anyone's idea of a good time. That's why I wish that WotC would a)stop printing overpowered blue creatures, and b)ban delver and TNN, and take a close look at Clique and Snapcaster.
That would allow good blue tempo shells to exist without crowding other decks out of the format.
That's totally subjective
Is this a serious question?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Assuming Elves isn't aggro, it's been a while
ftfy.
It should be noted that classifying decks like Death and Taxes as "aggro" doesn't really fit, so yes, it's been awhile since I've seen aggro do well.
Above is wrong in so many levels, allow me to correct some of them.
The best creatures of Legacy don't have to be blue. You are being subjective. I can argue that best creature of the format can be Thalia, which is not Blue.
Oh, I didn't know that having 2 creatures as Blue would push entire Legacy toward a Tempo sell. Are you kidding me? In a format where Dredge, Show and Tell, Storm, Painter... all the decks that can ignore creatures all together, you are on a witch-hunt of these 2 creatures might doom the format? Sure, if you're a creature Beatdown type of players, you might be concerned that Tempo/Aggro strategy are converging toward the same shell. However, it's also possible that the lack of skilled pilots in your local LGS shaping your opinion on the format overall. I've seen very competent Goblin players, taking victories from TNN and Delver players like nothing. Yes, Goblin Top 8 in SCG: ATL this year.
Besides, can you for a minute think outside of box, be a little considerate on the players who don't like to play creatures? Last time I check, Legacy is not about Blue Tempo vs Combo vs Mirror, Control decks like Miracles did fairly well. Loam decks actually are doing better ever since TNN.
Please don't exaggerate on the influence of those 2 creatures. They are good, but don't jump to the conclusion on the format as a whole. I tolerate your biased opinion on what should be banned, but you're wrong on several fronts regarding the state of this format.
The definition of "aggro" is completely relative. Delver U/x/x is "aggro". So, how do you consider 4xDelver, 4xStoneforge, 2xTrue-Name Nemesis with a few Lightning Bolts to be aggro and exempt Death and Taxes?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
If I reword that as "nonblue aggro,” would you quit your keyboard philosophizing?
If Death and Taxes assumes the control role in more than 50% of its matches, yeah, I'd argue it's shouldn't fit under the classical definition of aggro.
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The best reason for Delver and Snap Caster to be red is to push Burn.dec, a white TNN goes into Dead Guy, D'n'T, Miracles prolly, and Team Italia (which doesn't really exist, but I'd jam it). Like someone said, Delver and TNN make Zoo a thing if red and white respectively.
Done laughing? Groovy.
It's been stated that Delver, TNN and Snappy (to a lesser extent) aren't appropriate for Blue. The Blue ability to filter and counter isn't the problem, it's the blue deck being able to do everything. The protectors of Blue.dec don't see this as a problem, because they are literally having their cake and eating it too.
While some would seek to restrict some other aspects of Blue.dec, mainly the filtering/draw, that seems inappropriate because that is a Blue.dec core trait.
It basically comes down to Blue.dec being polygamist, while the rest of us are monogamist. If we're gonna swing that way, print some filter, print some stack interaction in the other colors. If we're not gonna get freaky-deaky, put some brake-pads on that runaway blue train. It started with a clear thought, but I'm rambling and this is going down the flusher.
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