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Thread: So, Judge Promo FoW

  1. #41
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Personally I prefer the MODO art. If there is a wider distribution later and I win one I would keep it but I am not however going to spend a few hundred dollars to get one since it will not in any way enhance my chance of winning.
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  2. #42
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the reaction to this card.

    Isn't this one of the "if you reprint anything..." cards that we keep saying needed to happen? The hell you doing worrying about what border the card has; it's a legal Force of Will reprint.

    No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.

    I'd just as soon see the card reprinted with a hand-drawn image of Jonathan Frakes, as long as it's legal. What, you thought they'd drop it in a Core Set?

    Winning my playset of FoWs is one of my favorite moments in the game, don't misunderstand me I don't have my hand out on this particular card. And I get it, ain't nothing like the real thing -- but sheeeeeeesh you guuuuuuuys, it's a Force of Will reprint. Get real mad about it.
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  3. #43

    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the reaction to this card.

    Isn't this one of the "if you reprint anything..." cards that we keep saying needed to happen? The hell you doing worrying about what border the card has; it's a legal Force of Will reprint.

    No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.

    I'd just as soon see the card reprinted with a hand-drawn image of Jonathan Frakes, as long as it's legal. What, you thought they'd drop it in a Core Set?

    Winning my playset of FoWs is one of my favorite moments in the game, don't misunderstand me I don't have my hand out on this particular card. And I get it, ain't nothing like the real thing -- but sheeeeeeesh you guuuuuuuys, it's a Force of Will reprint. Get real mad about it.

    Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.

  4. #44
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice11 View Post
    Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.
    Yeah, the problem is that it's not going to have any measurable effect on availability and therefore prices, which is what most people see as the biggest threats to the format's health. Since it's doing nothing for the format, I am now completely justified in focusing on the fact that it looks shitty.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  5. #45
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    The article reads "In recognition of this milestone, we sent promotional premium Force of Will out to judges who had certified other judges after 2005."

    So being a judge isn't sufficient requirement. You had to have certified other judges.
    I meant "which judge that has not yet certified another judge would like to certify me as their 1st judge certified so that they, not me, can get a FoW".

    I'm assuming there are a number of judges out there that have not certified other judges since 2005 (otherwise all judges would get it).

  6. #46
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    Yes, so you could charge someone $100 to certify you, because they're be getting a grand in return.
    I don't think you read that correctly. You (as the Level 2 Judge), have to have certified a new Level 1 Judge, in order to qualify for this "reward". It's already been processed and in the mail. Taking kick backs for judge certifications is kind of a moot point at this time, since it won't affect the current mailing.
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  7. #47

    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    First of all, If WotC doesn't care about Vintage and Legacy, why would they bother with Reprint? Obviously when there's enough demand, they take action, this is a Good thing.

    Now, how would they execute a reprint without plummeting original cards' pricing in the secondary market? Well.., apparently DCI judge Foil can do that and it's been done in the past. There're couple ways for WotC to reprint:
    FTV <insert a word here>, that's where Jace reprint came from.
    DCI judge, that's where FoW reprint will come from.

    Whenever and however WotC decides to inject new supplies of Vintage/Legacy playable cards into the secondary market, people should applaud. Don't get caught up on how it is done, be Grateful they're at least taking steps. Certainly there can be improvement down the road, like Legacy Master (just like Modern Master was such a hit). Bashing WotC hastily is the same as bitch whining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice11 View Post
    Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.
    You don't know that for fact. Some people might opt to "foil out" their decks, which includes FoW. In that case, these people might trade-in (upgrade) their non-foil FoW back to the market, thus increasing the supply.

  8. #48
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    First of all, If WotC doesn't care about Vintage and Legacy, why would they bother with Reprint?
    That's not the purpose of Judge Rewards at all. They're actually to reward judges. (the hint is in the name) Since Wizard's isn't going to pay Judges, they give them rewards that cost Hasboro $0.0000000001, and in turn, they players pay the Judges $300 for. So Wizards gets free labor and the Judges get paid. And this beautiful system only works if they print cards worth significance, hence Force of Will. Wizards' doesn't give a damn what it will do beyond motivate the judges to keep working without a salary.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  9. #49

    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    That's not the purpose of Judge Rewards at all. They're actually to reward judges. (the hint is in the name) Since Wizard's isn't going to pay Judges, they give them rewards that cost Hasboro $0.0000000001, and in turn, they players pay the Judges $300 for. So Wizards gets free labor and the Judges get paid. And this beautiful system only works if they print cards worth significance, hence Force of Will. Wizards' doesn't give a damn what it will do beyond motivate the judges to keep working without a salary.
    They could have easily print more DCI Goyf, more DCI Liliana, more DCI standard stuff, but they didn't. They picked a Legacy specific card. Things happened for a reason. You overlooked my point, I understand what the purpose of Judge reward is. I am referring to the choice. Wizard does give a damn on the card choice of what's being reprinted in DCI Judge, because eventually these cards will flow into the secondary market.

  10. #50

    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post

    You don't know that for fact. Some people might opt to "foil out" their decks, which includes FoW. In that case, these people might trade-in (upgrade) their non-foil FoW back to the market, thus increasing the supply.

    I don't particularly care either way, I was just pointing the possible thought process of some people who may be upset.

    Bottom line, there is still a finite amount of FOW's in existence and it's demand will not drop. From this, you can make an educated guess that this "reprinting" will not drop the price of FOW. Realistically, how many copies of FOW will be injected back into the market by players trading them in for the judge promos? My guess is not nearly enough to drop the price.

    Judge foils aren't the same as limited print run products like MM or FTV. There are not nearly as many in existence and don't have nearly as much effect on magics secondary market.


    Just my 2 cents.

  11. #51
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    They could have easily print more DCI Goyf, more DCI Liliana, more DCI standard stuff, but they didn't. They picked a Legacy specific card. Things happened for a reason. You overlooked my point, I understand what the purpose of Judge reward is. I am referring to the choice. Wizard does give a damn on the card choice of what's being reprinted in DCI Judge, because eventually these cards will flow into the secondary market.
    Nah, just because the cards will eventually flow into the secondary market doesn't correlate to them caring to anything. The fact that they are valued in the secondary market earns their justification for printing, only to give the best value to judges with minimal effort exerted. Why they are valued, what happens to them after they get distributed to Judges, these are inconsequential to the whole exercise.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  12. #52
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.
    WotC doesn't print cards for us because we're mean? Please.

  13. #53
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    WotC doesn't print cards for us because we're mean? Please.
    You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

    Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.
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  14. #54

    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice11 View Post
    I don't particularly care either way, I was just pointing the possible thought process of some people who may be upset.

    Bottom line, there is still a finite amount of FOW's in existence and it's demand will not drop. From this, you can make an educated guess that this "reprinting" will not drop the price of FOW. Realistically, how many copies of FOW will be injected back into the market by players trading them in for the judge promos? My guess is not nearly enough to drop the price.

    Judge foils aren't the same as limited print run products like MM or FTV. There are not nearly as many in existence and don't have nearly as much effect on magics secondary market.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Precisely, I certainly can see your point. This is how WotC can say:
    1. Hey, we reprinted Legacy staple, price didn't drop, you collectors can't get angry at us.
    2. Hey, we reprinted Legacy staple to increase the supply, even if it's just a little, you Legacy-wannabe-but-too-poor-to-afford cannot blame us. We do care about Eternal formats.

    This is a compromise from WotC's business sense. Do we prefer the alternatives, which is WotC doing nothing at all?

  15. #55
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

    Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.
    So less whining --> more printings?

  16. #56
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

    Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.
    Nobody from WotC reads the Source, let us have our fun! That art is mega dildos.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  17. #57
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Nah, just because the cards will eventually flow into the secondary market doesn't correlate to them caring to anything. The fact that they are valued in the secondary market earns their justification for printing, only to give the best value to judges with minimal effort exerted. Why they are valued, what happens to them after they get distributed to Judges, these are inconsequential to the whole exercise.
    If they actually wanted to "pay" Judges properly, they would throw in more money cards instead of crap like Greater Good. I don't care whether or not it's EDH crap, the value is going to suck.

    Imagine a Judge Brainstorm with sweet art or an old-bordered Ice Age foil Brainstorm. That's some serious money right there.

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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    If they actually wanted to "pay" Judges properly, they would throw in more money cards instead of crap like Greater Good. I don't care whether or not it's EDH crap, the value is going to suck.

    Imagine a Judge Brainstorm with sweet art or an old-bordered Ice Age foil Brainstorm. That's some serious money right there.
    Well like all things they do, they have to mix the good and the bad. Just like with card design, they can't all be good cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  19. #59
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Well like all things they do, they have to mix the good and the bad. Just like with card design, they can't all be good cards.
    Well, they can look at card prices and go "Yup, this is going to sell well." They can't introduce cards that cause a power creep, so all cards can be good. And by doing unique stuff, they guarantee high collector value without hurting existing cards.

    If anything, they should do MORE cool promo stuff. It doesn't cost them jackshit to produce said stuff.

  20. #60
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    Re: So, Judge Promo FoW

    Ha, no, I don't think less whining == better reprints, it's just amazing to watch this ecosystem sometimes.

    "WE WANT MOAR CARDS"

    *gets cards*

    "...NO NOT THESE CARDS"
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