Khans of Tarkir:

[Zombie]

I'm sure people would appreciate more Legacy - playable cards like Delver, Decay, DRS, Grisel, Terminus... honestly, a "Legacy-playable" card has to warp the format or it's not really playable. Every now and then we get cards like Council's Judgment or Faithless Looting which are strong on their own but have little impact overall. Most of the time the card has to be broken though, or it would just be like it didn't exist at all. I think the only card which has been printed in the last years that didn't warp the format around it but improved existing shells by a wide margin was Young Pyromancer. Okay, and Liliana.

Anyway, I definitely expect this block to have a couple of interesting cards. It is a multicolor block after all. The spoiler season just began, and I can't blame Wotc for revealing casual and limited cards first. The former sells the set, the latter gives a small glimpse into new mechanics without giving too much away.

Agent, Ooze, Flusterstorm, Strix...

[dunk]

Agent, Ooze, Flusterstorm, Strix...

None of them has been printed in a regular Standard and draftable set? I should have specified that. Yeah yeah, Ooze got reprinted later. Also, no one plays it anymore.

[TsumiBand]

This being the umpteenth thread which poo-poos a set incredibly pre-emptively is giving me a lot of pause in the ways I wish to react in the future to new cards/new sets.

Yes, quite recently I posted a "fuck you wizards" rant in the EDH forum because I initially thought that planeswalkers as commanders is taking too much lease with a format they didn't create, but after a few days and some well-formulated arguments and some re-examining I no longer feel bad about it. I bring that up because I've also fired off rounds of "new cards are bullshitty" posts, and maybe I'm re-evaluating the process that got me there.

I just can't even take this thread seriously for some reason. Must be that whole thing where we have the actual text of 4 new cards in a new set, and every Chicken Little is all piss and vinegar. Already?? Jesus, Lemnear, I'm calling you out - this isn't even hyperbole or flaming, your post history speaks for itself - you don't actually like Magic cards! I want you to look inwards, brother. Go read a book until the spoiler is like 55% done. I'm so serious. You sound like you need a cup of tea and a marathon viewing of Masterpiece Theatre to really just unwind and reflect. Go fishing. Learn yoga. Eat, pray, love. Stop looking at new Magic cards for, like, six months. It's your health I'm worried about. All that hate just welling up, you gotta be just tense as a new soccer ball. Sure you get to have an opinion, but it's just really nice if you like, let your words bake in your mental oven for a few minutes before they're served. That's all. I literally mean no offense by any of this.

I might just be the old man in the room that's tired of keeping up with the Jones' card collection, or tired of wishing the MtG scene was different here in Nebraska, or just too busy with family and work and hobbies that matter a damn to approach this game with this whole "what's in it for Legacy" filter, because honestly there's no happy medium anymore. Really, if a new card makes a dent, it's busted and everyone cries out their butt because their old decks don't work anymore. If nothing makes a dent, the whole set sucks and MaRo is a child-eating clone of Pol Pot with Marc Summers's face stapled on his non-face. It's a stagnant mindset and it prevents people from actually evaluating the cards on their face or sleeving up good tech. And it is a lousy read.

[bakofried]

I honestly think that was brilliant. I thought eternal players were supposed to be used to getting a few cards a set?

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly, most of the extreme haters are probably Eternal-only players. I play a lot of Limited (or I did, before work started eating into my time), and honestly things weren't too bad until Theros block. Actually, Journey had some interesting stuff going on and if any of it had started in Born then it would have made the Limited format significantly more enjoyable; as it was, there was too much emphasis on building up some sort of haymaker and preserving draft archetypes as the block evolved. It's almost like WotC had a design meeting at some point where they said, "Okay, so players really liked Spider Spawning in triple Innistrad but we didn't support it in Dark Ascension and players were sad about that, so let's put more effort into archetype continuity," without realizing how stale it would make the format feel come April.

Some of that may be just that BNG was absolute ass, though. JOU at least tried to mix things up.

That said, crying about the lack of Eternal playables is just kind of dumb. Eternal formats are largely defined by power level mistakes - it's really obvious in Vintage, but even Legacy makes use of cards like JtMS, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, and a bunch of other cards that aren't outright broken but certainly aren't healthy to have around on a day-to-day basis. Designing cards for that is incredibly hard, as WotC's supplemental products track record has shown: you either get cards that are strong, but not quite strong enough (Unexpectedly Absent, Council's Judgement) or cards that are way too strong (TNN, plus we know Mental Misstep was originally aimed specifically at Legacy) with very little in between (basically just Strix at this point). It's not sustainable and it's not worth their time.

It's like complaining that the last good Pauper card was Gary Merchant. Well, I'm sorry to break it to you, but WotC almost certainly does not have regular R&D meetings where everyone sits down and Aaron Forsythe or Mark Rosewater or whoever goes up to the whiteboard and says, "Okay, we need to make some cards for Pauper, pitch me some ideas," because Pauper is an ancillary format that isn't played by all that many people relative to the numbers jamming Standard, Draft, or even Modern. They make cards for smaller formats and if one of them happens to be good in Pauper or Legacy or Vintage or Prismatic or whatever, then there you go.

Of course, at least some of the bile here is because you apparently can't not be bileous on the internet these days. I doubt all the haters actually feel as passionately about the issue IRL as they appear to on here - and if they do, they probably would be better off from a blood pressure standpoint with just quitting Magic.

[Dice_Box]

I am happy to give Wizards some credit where it is due, Decay did exactly what it was printed to do. The whole printing of the Jund archetype has been sweet and the recent announcement that Rolling Earthquake is getting a reprint is sweet. Sometimes, they get it right. Sometimes, you get Theros.

[Lemnear]

I just can't even take this thread seriously for some reason. Must be that whole thing where we have the actual text of 4 new cards in a new set, and every Chicken Little is all piss and vinegar. Already?? Jesus, Lemnear, I'm calling you out - this isn't even hyperbole or flaming, your post history speaks for itself - you don't actually like RECENT Magic cards! I want you to look inwards, brother. Go read a book until the spoiler is like 55% done. I'm so serious. You sound like you need a cup of tea and a marathon viewing of Masterpiece Theatre to really just unwind and reflect. Go fishing. Learn yoga. Eat, pray, love. Stop looking at new Magic cards for, like, six months. It's your health I'm worried about. All that hate just welling up, you gotta be just tense as a new soccer ball. Sure you get to have an opinion, but it's just really nice if you like, let your words bake in your mental oven for a few minutes before they're served. That's all. I literally mean no offense by any of this.

I might just be the old man in the room that's tired of keeping up with the Jones' card collection, or tired of wishing the MtG scene was different here in Nebraska, or just too busy with family and work and hobbies that matter a damn to approach this game with this whole "what's in it for Legacy" filter, because honestly there's no happy medium anymore. Really, if a new card makes a dent, it's busted and everyone cries out their butt because their old decks don't work anymore. If nothing makes a dent, the whole set sucks and MaRo is a child-eating clone of Pol Pot with Marc Summers's face stapled on his non-face. It's a stagnant mindset and it prevents people from actually evaluating the cards on their face or sleeving up good tech.

First, this was very entertaining and I'm not easily offended. I think it's valid complaining if you have to see the "multicolor" topic, kicker, creatures-matter focus, etc. rehashed every one or two blocks, as if players have no memory and the State of the Art articles feed that impression with the ever same excuses.

Maybe I'm too buisy with family, friends, work and life to dig deep into every damn set and format to cheerish MaRo's warping of the Game to what it is today.

[Barook]

What I kinda miss in Theros block were cards that scream "Build a deck around me!". JOU had Constellation which made an Ok-Impact in Standard with the green card drawer, and Nykthos come into mind. The devotion decks were basically monocolored goodstuff decks that abused Gary/Master of Waves. Other than that, it was an uninspired clusterfuck of Walkers/Sweeper Durdle Control/turning dudes sideaways decks.

I'm interested to see if they can get WR cards right this time. The color combination is severely lacking, especially compared to BG.

I am happy to give Wizards some credit where it is due, Decay did exactly what it was printed to do. The whole printing of the Jund archetype has been sweet and the recent announcement that Rolling Earthquake is getting a reprint is sweet. Sometimes, they get it right. Sometimes, you get Theros.

DRS (as OP as it is) and RiP also ended the long history of massive GY abuse pretty handily. Alongside with AD, they also "solved" Tarmogoyf for good. They can print cards that are good for Eternal without breaking Standard (DRS in Modern was kinda unfortunate, but that's a different story), but instead they decide to reprint old cards with double and tripple the mana costs because they can. The blatant recycling of old cards in the most shameless way possible is probably the thing that pisses me off the most.

[TheArchitect]

This being the umpteenth thread which poo-poos a set incredibly pre-emptively is giving me a lot of pause in the ways I wish to react in the future to new cards/new sets.

Yes, quite recently I posted a "fuck you wizards" rant in the EDH forum because I initially thought that planeswalkers as commanders is taking too much lease with a format they didn't create, but after a few days and some well-formulated arguments and some re-examining I no longer feel bad about it. I bring that up because I've also fired off rounds of "new cards are bullshitty" posts, and maybe I'm re-evaluating the process that got me there.

I just can't even take this thread seriously for some reason. Must be that whole thing where we have the actual text of 4 new cards in a new set, and every Chicken Little is all piss and vinegar. Already?? Jesus, Lemnear, I'm calling you out - this isn't even hyperbole or flaming, your post history speaks for itself - you don't actually like Magic cards! I want you to look inwards, brother. Go read a book until the spoiler is like 55% done. I'm so serious. You sound like you need a cup of tea and a marathon viewing of Masterpiece Theatre to really just unwind and reflect. Go fishing. Learn yoga. Eat, pray, love. Stop looking at new Magic cards for, like, six months. It's your health I'm worried about. All that hate just welling up, you gotta be just tense as a new soccer ball. Sure you get to have an opinion, but it's just really nice if you like, let your words bake in your mental oven for a few minutes before they're served. That's all. I literally mean no offense by any of this.

I might just be the old man in the room that's tired of keeping up with the Jones' card collection, or tired of wishing the MtG scene was different here in Nebraska, or just too busy with family and work and hobbies that matter a damn to approach this game with this whole "what's in it for Legacy" filter, because honestly there's no happy medium anymore. Really, if a new card makes a dent, it's busted and everyone cries out their butt because their old decks don't work anymore. If nothing makes a dent, the whole set sucks and MaRo is a child-eating clone of Pol Pot with Marc Summers's face stapled on his non-face. It's a stagnant mindset and it prevents people from actually evaluating the cards on their face or sleeving up good tech. And it is a lousy read.

All of this quote for the win.

I remember the only time I ever actually contacted someone from WoTC (MaRo) was after spoiling Temporal Mastery. Time walk in legacy??? OP STUPID WOTC. I was convinced it would be the end of legacy, finally make them ban brainstorm, and ruin everything. The same night it was spoiled I jumped to a lot of conclusions, and emailed out my rant. Obviously I was pretty wrong about the miracle mechanic and its actually spawned one of my favorite decks I have ever played.

And related to ranting about no legacy playables in the set: would you people ranting prefer if instead the spoiled cards on the power level (or above the power leve) of delver or DRS? Would that really make you happy if we got MORE cards the impact legacy?

Also guys, we have seen 6 cards. SIX CARDS. One is obviously a plant to get commander casual's drooling, 3 are previews of set mechanics in their most simple and easy to comprehend forms, and 2 are lands that everyone was expecting. How are you making any conclusions from this? It would be like if for RTR they showed us, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Azorius Arrester, Golgari Decoy, Coursers' Accord, Overgrown Tomb, and Hallowed Fountain, as reasonable equivalents to the previews to what we have seen of Khans, and we just assumed we'd get nothing for legacy from RTR. Believe it or not, eternal playing spikes are a very small minority of magic players. I'm just making up numbers here, but I bet at the very least 95% of magic players would be more pumped up for a new set by seeing Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius than by seeing Abrupt Decay.

[lyracian]

That said, crying about the lack of Eternal playables is just kind of dumb. Eternal formats are largely defined by power level mistakes

I agree; if you are already playing the best 60 card printed there has to be a very good reason why you would want to buy something from a Standard set. I am quite happy with just having 1-2 cards that go into Legacy from each set. Burn may not be everyone's choice of deck but Eidolon of the Great Revel has certainly helped improve its performance. I am certainly willing to wait and see what Khans will actually bring; we might get some eternal playable Morph creatures that do not wreck standard...

Designing cards for that is incredibly hard, as WotC's supplemental products track record has shown: you either get cards that are strong, but not quite strong enough (Unexpectedly Absent, Council's Judgement) or cards that are way too strong (TNN, plus we know Mental Misstep was originally aimed specifically at Legacy) with very little in between (basically just Strix at this point). It's not sustainable and it's not worth their time.

We got Toxic Deluge as well and Council's Judgement is seeing play in Miracles and D&T. Wizards can design cards for eternal they just do not seem to want to put any effort into testing.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I feel the same pain that many eternal-fans on this forum feels. Many new mechanics seem interesting (Bestow, Devotion), but everything is overcosted and very little makes it to Eternal. People saying that the card has to be busted to make a dent in legacy, are wrong. I don't think people expect a Deathrite Shaman from every set. Sometimes cards new to legacy take a while to work (example: Thespian's Stage, a wonderful card). These are examples of cards from recents sets that have had an impact on legacy, if ever so small (I include fringe sideboard cards here, like Blind Obedience, and cards that are only played maindeck in fringe decks, like Thragtusk in G/B Nic-Fit).

Commander 2011: Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm
Commander 2014: Toxic Deluge, True-Name Nemesis

Planechase 2012: Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent

Magic 2012: Phantasmal Image
Magic 2013: Master of the Pearl Trident, Omniscience, Krenko, Thragtusk,
Magic 2014: Galerider Sliver, Tidebinder Mage, Young Pyromancer, Predatory Silver
Magic 2015: Void Snare, Reclamation Sage, Sliver Hive

Return to Ravnica: Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Supreme Verdict, Golgari Charm, Detention Sphere, Loxodon Smiter, Rakdos Charm, Slaughter Games, Judge's Familiar, Nivmagus Elemental,
Gatecrash: Blind Obedience, Enter the Infinite, Balustrade Spy, Thespian's Stage, Skullcrack,
Dragon's Maze: Notion Thief, Ruric Thar, Wear/Tear

Theros: Swansong
Born of the Gods: Brimaz, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Searing Blood
Journey Into Nyx: Aegis of the Gods, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Prophetic Flamespeaker, Mana Confluence

Now, many of these cards are very fringe, like Prophetic Flamespeaker which I have seen in a few red dragon stompy lists. But Wizards have printed quite a few cards for legacy the last few years, but they have been unevenly distributed (Return to Ravnica was a huge legacy-hit, Dragon's Maze was quite bad).

Only a few cards have been detrimental to the format. True-Name Nemesis should have borrowed a similar phrase from Silvergill Adept "As an additional cost to cast TNN, reveal a merfolk from your hand or pay X". That would have kept it out of the blue goodstuff-decks and "just" made it a staple in merfolk-decks. As for it being impossible to design cards for legacy that are not horribly broken and not automatically jammed into blue goodstuff-decks, here are some cards I made recently:

Emerald Aurora
Enchantment
When Emerald Aurora enters the battlefield, draw a card.
Your lands have Hexproof.

Sisters of the Moongate
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Flash.
If a creature would enter the battlefield from its owner's hand without being cast, exile it instead.
2/1

Goblin Cursechanter
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Blue creatures get -1/-1
2/1

Nature's Path
Instant
Look at the top three cards of your library and put two of them into your graveyard. Then reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature or land, put it into your hand and gain 2 life.

Goblin Flagbearer
Creature - Goblin Soldier
Goblin spells cost less to cast
1/2

[Lord Seth]

What?

Do you have a source before I lose the little rest of hope left in humanity? And even then, Bored of the Gods and Journey into Dicks weren't that great, otherwise revenue wouldn't have plateau'ed the first time in years since Q2/14.

I can't find a source that says Theros was definitely bestselling. I found some answers at Mark Rosewater's blog, like this, that say Theros might have surpassed Return to Ravnica, but nothing that says Theros definitely was.

For whatever it’s worth, I did have a lengthy discussion with a store owner I know about what sets were selling, figuring that he would be in a good position to know. He gave me the following ranking of how well the sets Ravnica and after did, from most popular to least popular: (a few sets are put together because he said they sold about the same)
#1. Return to Ravnica
#2. Theros
#3. Magic 2014
#4. Gatecrash/Journey into Nyx
#5. Born of the Gods/Dragon's Maze

He said it was too early to definitively place Magic 2015 anywhere, but said that at the moment it looked like it would be ranked about where Theros is.

You guys need to learn how to draft or something and not expect Legacy cards from every set. Enchantments did matter quite a bit in Standard and Draft actually and it's hard to make good Legacy cards, especially Enchantments, that wouldn't ruin their cash cow.

I played Standard, and I don't remember enchantments mattering much at all. Okay, there were cards that were enchantments that mattered, but them being an enchantment was incidental to that, e.g. Courser of Kruphix.

[menace13]

I can't find a source that says Theros was definitely bestselling.

Theros is currently the best-selling Magic set of all time.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...te-design-2014
Second paragraph second line.

[Barook]

#1. Return to Ravnica
#2. Theros
#3. Magic 2014
#4. Gatecrash/Journey into Nyx
#5. Born of the Gods/Dragon's Maze

He said it was too early to definitively place Magic 2015 anywhere, but said that at the moment it looked like it would be ranked about where Theros is.

The worst sets selling worst isn't too suprising. That the big sets sell the most isn't too suprising, either, since they're a core part of the Standard format and are in the format the longest.

But what puzzles me is how Theros could outsell RtR. Probably more players with lower standards? Was the Limited format that much fun? (I doubt it)

Given that trend, Khans of Tarkir is probably going to outsell Theros.

[Koby]

WotC-speak: "Theros is the best selling set OF ALL TIME!!!"
Hasbro-speak: "Magic sales YTD 2014 are flat compared to YTD 2013"

Actually means: "Magic is more popular than ever. Excitement for Magic sets is plateauing"

It's like saying cocaine is having its best year of sales ever, oh and don't mind we have seen addicts rise by 30% compared to last year.

[Barook]

WotC-speak: "Theros is the best selling set OF ALL TIME!!!"
Hasbro-speak: "Magic sales YTD 2014 are flat compared to YTD 2013"

Actually means: "Magic is more popular than ever. Excitement for Magic sets is plateauing"

It's like saying cocaine is having its best year of sales ever, oh and don't mind we have seen addicts rise by 30% compared to last year.

Actually, wasn't it just the Q2/14 report where sales stagnated, which wouldn't be too suprising with BNG bombing and JOU being a third set/not being the greatest thing either?

[Koby]

Actually, wasn't it just the Q2/14 report where sales stagnated, which wouldn't be too suprising with BNG bombing and JOU being a third set/not being the greatest thing either?

As were GTC and DGM. Theros only selling more on volume rather than demand (a la RTR). That's why there is this disparity between perceived best received set (RTR) vs most consumed (THS). You have to credit Organized Play, they make opening boosters a prime directive. Prerelease has been hyping that up part of the machine for a while now.

If they only got rid of seeded packs, I would be a happy camper.

I will probably be playing a lot of KTK sealed all told.

[Lord Seth]

The worst sets selling worst isn't too suprising. That the big sets sell the most isn't too suprising, either, since they're a core part of the Standard format and are in the format the longest.

But what puzzles me is how Theros could outsell RtR. Probably more players with lower standards? Was the Limited format that much fun? (I doubt it)

Given that trend, Khans of Tarkir is probably going to outsell Theros.

I, at least, thought Standard was pretty fun when just Theros was out. It wasn't until Born of the Gods was released that it stagnated into a boring sea of Monoblack decks.

[HammafistRoob]

What if we do draft but think Theros limited sucked?

It's very simple really. You take all the money you would have spent draftingand buy a metric fuckton of jelly donuts.

You cannibal.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I just can't even take this thread seriously for some reason. Must be that whole thing where we have the actual text of 4 new cards in a new set, and every Chicken Little is all piss and vinegar. Already?? Jesus, Lemnear, I'm calling you out - this isn't even hyperbole or flaming, your post history speaks for itself - you don't actually like Magic cards!

In Lemnear's defense: yes, one may be disappointed after four cards spoiled. You know, when someone always tells you "this was my last drink/line/prostitute, I swear, I'll be a good husband, trust me, darling" and then he goes WHOA! a top-down creatures matter gonna beat you if you'll leave me... Bah. So yeah, Lemnear should be annoyed by WotC's continuous cocaine-whores escapades, it gets pretty old.
Look, I'm not against top-down creatures matter and umpteenth remake of kicker, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that this set/block won't be your favourite, if the previous such attempts annoyed the crap out of you; thus the preemptive disappointment.