I saw this deck the other day. It is very fun to play. It is the Solidarity of Modern.
The gist of the deck is to play a bit of control, sculpt a hand, make land drops along the way, and get a draw engine into play. Play timewalks, draw cards, drop lands, and repeat. You'll snowball timewalks and resources until eventually, like 30 turns later, you'll win the game with Jace and Mikokoro decking your opponent.
// The most played card in magic
20 Island
// Draw Engine and Win Cons
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Jace Beleren
4 Dictate of Kruphix
// Don't deck yourself
1 Elixir of Immortality
// Masturbation
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Walk the Aeons
// Flex
1 Snapcaster Mage
// Control
4 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
2 Gigadrowse
// Card Quality
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 1 Laboratory Maniac
SB: 3 Torpor Orb
SB: 2 Gigadrowse
In some ways, this is the deck which Turbo Fog wished it could be. There isn't a much better defense than infinite turns. At some point, you'll resolve a timewalk, and your opponent may never get another turn. Even if they do get another turn because you fizzle, you will likely have the resources to bridge to your next turn by crippling their turn through tap effects, bounces, and counters.
Make sure to protect Elixir. Don't let it get destroyed, countered, or discarded. Protect it at all times.
I've tried many of the timewalk cards available in Modern. Ultimately, I think these are the only worthwhile ones, and if you want more, Snapcaster is probably the way to go (even though it exiles). Walk's buyback is rarely used, but Temporal Mastery's miracle is used all the time. Serum and Telling Time are incredibly good at setting it up.
Cryptic Command is a necessary swiss army knife for the deck. It can bridge from a fizzle to your next turn with tap effects. It bounces bad permanents. And, of course, it counters.
Gigadrowse is meh except in two very important circumstances: tapping out opposing control decks to resolve spells (end step often), and bridging between turns (much stronger than Cryptic). I'm not sure if Snapcaster or Gigadrowse is better. Snapcaster can prevent fizzles with significant amounts of mana, but Gigadrowse is fairly unique.
Ultimately, when playing a blue-based combo deck in modern, I'm forced to ask: why play this instead of Twins? It has a rogue factor to it, but even then, Twins is probably a better deck. That said, this deck is very fun to play (which is a good enough reason for me!).
I'm currently trying Time Stop out, but I have doubts about the card. I'm interested in any and all suggestions. I've tried Explore, but it wasn't worth it.
peace,
4eak
I've actually been playing this deck for quite a while and have put a great deal of work into it, and am considering running it during the PTQ season. It's not as good as something like Twin on a grand scale, but it's far more difficult to interact with and disrupt and has a good number of free wins. Then again I wouldn't really compare the two, but given you made the analogy I figured I'd chip in (though personally I think it resembles Scapeshift more than anything). But I really like it because it offers a unique angle of attack and just basically ignores a good portion of the metagame (see: Pod decks). That said, there are still some inherent flaws to the deck that I've been trying to work out, and have been fairly successful at it. Here's the list that I've been running to the most success:
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
2 Walk the Aeons
1 Jace Beleren
4 Dictate of Kruphix
3 Rites of Flourishing
4 Serum Visions
2 Telling Time
4 Cryptic Command
2 Remand
4 Gigadrowse
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Breeding Pool
13 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard:
4 Fog
2 Nature's Claim
3 Swan Song
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
2 Grafdigger's Cage
Based on looks alone the differences are pretty great, so I'll break them down with an explanation why:
Laboratory Maniac: I've used basically every win condition setup possible, and I've found the 1/1/1 Maniac/Jace/Elixir trio to be the strongest and most consistent. I like Lab Maniac the most because it fits far better into the natural play style of the deck, and bypasses virtually all hate that could be thrown your way. It allows you to simply streamline your plays and just burn through your deck rather than trying to setup an infinite turn scenario with Jace. This isn't the case with Jace alone, which can be a pain trying to beat a deck like Tron, and can randomly get hit by something like Needle. Jace also takes far more time to actually win with, which can be relevant. In a pinch Maniac can also be used as a blocker, which has saved my ass a few times as well. So having access to both in game one is nice.
Rites of Flourishing: The biggest issue that I had with the deck before is that without a mine effect, the warps were practically useless. If you aren't getting additional value out of them they aren't doing a great job. If you had an early Dictate or Jace countered/discarded/killed, it basically was backbreaking and difficult to recover from. The deck really has trouble working without one. I started with adding Howling Mine, but given the other great options green has (discussed below), and since it dodges artifact hate I opted to use Rites of Flourishing to supplement Dictate. This allows the deck to have a consistent mine effect by turn 3-4 and basically hit your win by turn 4-5. It greatly changes the consistency of the deck. Rites actually plays insanely well into the design of the deck, provided it's built to support it. Having access to extra land drops from turn four onward allow you to cast quicker warps and find more business at the same time. It allows the deck to take on a more aggressive approach as well because its able to do so. It's basically what the deck needed imo, and the way the deck runs it breaks the card's symmetry quite easily. Just being able to cast a third turn Rites into a turn four warp, even if you don't hit another one, will likely put you so far ahead that the game could be out of reach. If the opponent gets to their fourth turn and they're staring down 7-8 lands, a handful of cards (likely Cryptics and Gigadrowse), odds are they just can't win. Not to mention any warps you draw from that point on likely end the game.
However, to properly make Rites work with the deck you need to redesign the deck to take advantage of it:
• Instead of running 12 warps, I run 10. This is actually a byproduct of drawing more cards, allowing you to slim the number down while still not dropping off in consistently hitting them. This is also nice because it doesn't clog your openers nearly as much. I opted to slim the Walk the Aeons, as Mastery getting miracled happens often with the deck manipulation, and it's more expensive than Warp. Walk the Aeons is actually stronger through because of Rites as you have more lands faster, so the time when you buy it back increase as well. And if you ever do, you've basically won the game.
• Having the additional mine effects naturally plays into Lab Maniac as a win condition. If you're running just Dictate/Jace it's far weaker. But when you double the number of mines and burn through the deck faster, Lab Maniac's viability as a win condition increases exponentially.
• Running Rites admittedly makes Remand a far weaker card. Giving the opponent extra land drops pretty much negates the benefit of it, so I only run two. In its stead I run the full set of Gigadrowse, which I feel you vastly underrate. Gigadrowse is very good in nearly every matchup and acts as additional copies of warps itself, and it's downright dirty when you have the mana to tap out their board and Remand the original copy back to your hand. But it plays quite well with Rites because of the extra lands you have in play, helping take pressure off the symmetrical land drops. With four, I'm also keen on aggressively using these within the first turns of the game as well to use as a speed bump to get better mileage out of the mine effect that will get dropped on turn three.
• You need to run additional lands to really get value out of the card, so I run 24. I honestly likely wouldn't run any less if the deck were monoblue. With only 22 lands, I often struggled to hit them in monoblue and subsequently had difficulty casting warps. I think 24 is the perfect number, and the fetchlands play excellently with the deck. They either do a good job getting garbage off the top after Telling Time, or they help thin the deck when you're in the middle of going off. It's something that is taken for granted given how embedded fetchlands are in the game now, but in this deck I feel they make a far bigger difference than in most. When you can pull cards out of the deck while going off, it plays into odds on hitting warp effects during your next turn.
The rest of the maindeck is essentially the same, but the sideboard is also what I really like about adding green:
4 Fog: Against any deck that primarily uses the attack phase, such as Affinity or Merfolk, this is downright unfair in the deck. It allows you to tap out more aggressively and do more to setup going off rather than rely on holding Cryptic Command up. It also allows for serious blowouts because people won't see it coming. But between full sets of Fog, Cryptic Command, and Gigadrowse, you almost never lose these types of matchups.
2 Nature's Claim: Primarily used to help combat shit like Choke or Spirit of the Labyrinth, but also has use against Affinity, Twin, Pod, Storm, etc. It's just a versatile answer for a lot of things that are annoying, so I like using them over Hurkyl's Recall.
3 Swan Song: Best supportive counter in the format to help win counter wars. Pretty much a staple for decks like this or Scapeshift now.
2 Negate: These could be something else, but I liked that they had applications in combo matchups and slower matchups and they also actually counter Karn. Karn is an big fucking annoyance. But a full set of Gigadrowse go a long way in the Tron matchup as you can trip them up fast enough to have Cryptic Command live by the time they are able to cast big spells. But mostly used for the Scapeshift and Storm matchups.
2 Spellskite: Just versatile for so many matchups. This doesn't really require explanation, though I do really like it against decks that can actually kill the mine effects.
2 Grafdigger's Cage: For a single mana it'll shut down most of the Pod decks (so basically worth infinite warps) and pulls its weight against Storm and Living End. They could potentially be Torpor Orbs, but I feel the applications of Cage outweigh Orb. This is probably the weakest sideboard slot, but I've been very happy with them.
Stuff I didn't run:
Explore: I've had this in the deck multiple times, and it can be absolutely brutal if you can curve with it well, but as a two-drop cantrip I like Telling Time better. If you can hit the insane turn two Explore -> Island, Serum Visions into Temporal Mastery start it's golden, but otherwise it's not as good as Telling Time or Remand. It could find its way back in the deck, but I'm happy with the list as is or now.
Thassa: I've seen a handful of builds run them as a win condition, but I dislike that it requires attacking and use of a life total. The scry is great though early in the game.
Snapcaster Mage: Just a lack of space. I don't really think it's needed though. For the space that is in the deck, I'd prefer having actual copies of the card I need if it isn't a four of already.
Batterskull and friends: In a lot of sideboards, but given how streamlined my decklist is this isn't really necessary.
Sun Droplet: Fog is probably better in most cases. Not the Burn matchup, but that's too narrow of a match to swap them.
Just wanted to add, that the game day promo of Dictate of Kruphix looks so sweet. T_T
I love Rites of Flourishing here. I can't believe I didn't try it (I've played a ton of Turbo Fog). Ug plays very differently from MUC, and far less like Solidarity. The MUC version hangs on a thread the whole time (which is exciting), but the gameplan with Rites of Flourishing is incredibly consistent and requires very little bridging. I like the reward it gives without the risk. It is far less common to fizzle with so many passive draw engines, and the go-off turn is so straightforward, fast, and flexible. Gigadrowse is clearly stronger in the Ug version than the MUC version. I would argue about the value of Gigadrowse for MUC, but why? Green is clearly the correct choice. Your analysis is spot on (I'd go point by point to elaborate, but that is not necessary).
Well, thank you for the list. =)
peace,
4eak
I've been a big fan of TurboFog, especially during Standard, and loved running it at the start of Modern. Unfortunately, the deck just isn't as good and I've been looking for a replacement. I've been running a similar list to the one OP suggested, but I really like the second suggestion. My only question is is it worth running Emrakul? Prevents you from being self-milled in most cases, helps chain turns once you hit that much mana and is a win-con in itself. Granted, it's often a dead draw and could screw up a chain, but a 1-of might be worth considering. Your thoughts?
I despise Modern.
But this deck looks awesome.
Not to sidetrack this topic, but I've seen the Modern hate from quite a few Legacy players. Why is that? Just curious, not trying to start any fights or whatever.Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Hey Mike. I've been goofing around with 8 rack/pox deck lately in modern but this deck looks like even more fun. Reminds me of the old Time Sieve/Open the Vault deck from standard of years ago.
Any who. Has anyone tried Emmy as a one of for a win condition? Or is the life gained from Elixir relevant? Emmy's shuffle seems less situational and will auto win the game when you reach 15 lands.
I like playing extremely broken Magic cards. Modern to me doesn't offer anything Legacy can't already provide.
I also hate playing with restricted card pools.
Emrakul is dead in hand until you are already winning the game. By the time you get 15 land into play, you've won (I've never lost with 15 lands in play with this deck...in fact, after a decade of magic, I've only lost a handful of games with 15 lands in play). Emrakul is win-more.
The life gain from Elixir has been relevant to me several times, particularly against Sligh/Burn. The shuffle effect and its cost are really why it is in the deck. Oddly, Elixir/Jace have been really weak for me. Since using Rites and Lab Maniac, I've yet to need to use Jace. It is a nice backup plan, but I'm trying to figure out if it is even worth running in the main.
Why not just go to two Lab Maniacs, or 1 Maniac and 1 Elixir to either replay a GY'd maniac or Mikokoro for 45 turns from an exiled Maniac (which is not insanely slower than Jace)? Are there matches where Elixir/jace is the better win con or where the alternate gameplan it provides is really that useful?
peace,
4eak
I'd still run a single Jace in the main as a fine backup plan, but I view it predominantly as the eighth mine effect rather than a second win condition. There are no matches where winning with Jace is better, but as far as using a single slot as a backup win, it's easily stronger than the second Lab Maniac. As a standalone card, Jace is much better than Lab Maniac because it actually does something if you draw it literally any time before you win. I'd much rather have the ability to draw a few extra cards from it and get some decent value than sit with a useless 2/2.
That's fair. To me, the restriction is what brings out people's creativity. But in the same vain, there's a lot you can't do because of the restrictions. Thanks for the explanation.
As for the Emrakul discussion, I really just hate playing a singleton Elixir, because if it's gone, there's a very good chance you'll deck yourself. I'd probably feel better with a singleton Academy Ruins for backup.
I'm very glad the this deck is being discussed on TheSource forums.
I, as Di, have put a lot of effort into it since a couple of months; I have tried to refine the concept to come to a solution that could be viable against all the major contenders. A discussion on Salvation is going on as well but it is mostly filled by half-bad suggestions so maybe I can find more constructivism here.
I'll try to be brief and analytical about what I think are the best choices.
This is my list as of now:
23 Island
4 Serum Visions
4 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Time Warp
4 Cryptic Command
4 Walk the Aeons
2 Telling Time
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Remand
3 Peek
2 Boomerang
2 Vendilion Clique
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Mine Effects
I agree that the deck's greatest vulnerability is in the desperate need of a Mine effect to capitalize on timewalking; without it, they are most of the times mere Explore effects. The problem, though, is that in my opinion Dictate of Kruphix is the only one that has the ability of being acceptable within Modern's panorama because of the flash clause.
If we consider the sorcery-speed options (Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, Kami of the Crescent Moon, Font of Mythos), I think none of this is really good, the reason being that they start to provide advantage to your opponent anytime, in any case.
This makes them really bad because you are both 1) tapping yourself out, and 2) at least for a turn providing them the fuel they need to actuate their gameplan (or the draws needed to destroy your Mine effect) for free.
The second best Howling Mine to me is Jace Beleren with the third being Temple Bell (because it lets you regulate when to draw). Mikokoro is also fine, but it suffers from land-hate which I will talk about later.
The issue with Jace though is that he is not that is useful in the setup turns, implying early scenarios like this:
- You tap out for Jace, send it to 5, your opponent has a free turn (and a free card) to destroy it with attacks+bolt. This is good only against UWr decks where Jace is a powerhouse of card advantage given their only pressure is burn spells, and it forces them either to spend two cards on it or to let you gain a good number of cards by +2 and -1'ing alternatively. Or
- You -1 him, he goes to 2, he's very likely to die the next turn.
He's also very slow to finish games with in tandem with Elixir, and in general, they are both low-impact cards outside the combo turns.
I tried then to solve the issue of relying only on the Dictates by tweaking the deck in a different direction.
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Snapcaster Mage
Snapcaster Mage was my route of choice after having ditched Jace.
+ He lets you run four more virtual copies of any spell you have in the deck, and specifically four more Cryptic Commands, which is good against aggressive decks.
Once you reach six mana, you have a greater chance to keep up against Affinity, Zoo and the likes and advancing your gameplan at the same time (by cantripping with CC).
Any deck with the full set of Remands, Cryptics and Snapcasters has a very healthy dose of resiliency ensured in every stage of the game without giving up the capability to cantrip into solutions and overall flexibility to adapt every matchup.
+ He allows to cut Temporal Mastery (which makes the deck clunkier due to the necessity of going through loops to not draw it when not needed/wanted) and lean your gameplan to a more regular distribution of your cards between turns, with the final goal being to enter buyback mode with Walk the Aeons and finish it out with beats.
+ He is a win condition by himself. Once extra turns are going on, it doesn't take much to Cryptic their blockers, if any, and send 2-4-6 damage to
the dome.
+ He takes the strain off Mine effects by being able to create chains where you have a couple of Snapcasters in hand with 7 or 8 mana, you flashback a couple of Timewalks and start the beat. This gives you the room to snowball into more cantrips to find other Timewalks or to draw Cryptic/Dictate, pass the turn, and re-start.
+ He trades with a hatebear and may trade with an early Dark Confidant, who is a pain.
+ He fills your curve of possible plays from turn 3 and on.
+ You don't need to protect Elixir anymore because you don't need Elixir anymore.
Arguably, there are a few inconvenients:
- You have to be careful about timewalks discarded. Always keep in mind to save one Walk the Aeons.
- Scavenging Ooze may become an issue if you don't Command it before going off.
- You have to be careful that not of all your Snaps get killed, especially in grindy matchups like Jund.
- If you are facing a rogue deck like Soul Sisters, it will take a while to beatdown from app.ly 50-60 lives. This is doable once you have 2 Snaps and a Clique, but requires several walks to be pulled out.
- In general, without a re-shuffle effect like Elixir you have to be careful when going off with multiple Dictates. You can, however, leverage this by bouncing them when you're few cards off milling.
I have added a couple of Vendilion Cliques to have a strong turn three play, to have information and regualate your future plays, to complement the beats, to have a way to protect Dictate from Abrupt Decay, to fight Liliana and to have a good weapon against draw-go strategies.
I think the beatdown strategy puts more value on timewalking as it tipically needs just a few extra turns to get the job done, whereas Jace and Maniac require you to go on for several loops and having more Mines on the board. Maniac moreover is useless by himself.
-----
Curving Out
Another major flaw that I see while building this deck is overloading on heavy drops without considering the necessity to curve out.
In particular, none of the builds I have seen so far have a correct distribution of cc1 drops, which are crucial to let your deck flow naturally and be able to build gameplan quickly against fast, aggressive strategies. My list has the following distribution of mana:
7 cc1
6 cc2
6 cc3
4 cc4
4 cc5
4 cc6
and four Snapcasters.
I have incorporated 3 Peeks. While seeming silly, they are actually crucial to know when the coast is clear to drop Dictate and start timewalking, to know if Abrupt Decay is there, to know when it is needed to burn a counterspell of ambushing Snapcaster Mage. Peek also inputs psychological tricks which makes it more difficult to play against this deck- everyone knows how Gitaxian Probe improves combo decks.
-----
Splashing or Mikokoro
I dislike splashing. While the bonuses of playing Fog post-side and other options like Nature's Claim are undeniable in comparison to play generic bounce spells, adding fetchlands and shocklands makes the deck susceptible to more damage and Tectonic Edge.
I also somehow dislike adding utility lands like Mikokoro because there will be games where a timely tectonic Edge will deprive you off one land you needed to pay for your costy timewalks, or for Cryptic + Dictate, and so on. By playing only Islands it is true that we lose something but we gain absolute solidity which is crucial for the deck.
I can see a point in fetchlands, aside from color-tutoring, to maximize Telling Time and Serum Visions, but they also lower your chances of drawing Islands when you have to start buybacking (I'm talking about my version).
-----
Gigadrowse
The way I see Gigadrowse is that it just buys a turn without providing any other benefit when you are behind and it is very good only when you have a Mine.
The same for other options like Exhaustion. It's a narrow card that can be also played around by draw-go strategies by throwing their spells (burn) they kept in hand for all the game and Remanding a copy, and the likes.
More Mines may justify it, though.
-----
To sum it up:
All these changes make my version mono-blue "goodstuff" deck with the added benefit of a combo finish, which I think is an essential feature to be able to succeed (see Twin and Scapeshift: they all share the same core of proven staples).
The problem I see with all those sorcery-speed heavy versions of Turbotime is that their cards alone kind of suck and they don't really have parallel gameplans to pull off if the situation isn't good. I think these versions (including Di's) are much better at comboing off because of the greater number of Mines and Timewalks, but at the same time these are the cards that make the deck clunkier during setup.
I'd like to hear from you.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
This is the list I have been testing;
23 Island
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Jace Belaren
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Cryptic Command
3 Gigadrowse
4 Dakra Mystic
4 Serum Visions
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Time Warp
3 Walk the Aeons
3 Remand
No non-basics to start. If you are running the Green version, you have some fashion to add land drops. So you are less vulnerable to LD. While I still would be worried about missing any land drop with Green, this version can't ever do so. So I can't even run the Kamigawa lands.
No Snapcaster. This version could use him, but he is not enough reason to open up any vulnerability to GY hate.
Dakra Mystic; The key to this version. Gives 8 1-drops. If your opponent spends more than 1 mana, a Path, or a burn spell to remove him, you are ahead. Acts as a slightly worse Mine in the mid-game, but is better in the early game. Can chump for a turn. Still great when comboing, as the nature of the deck negates summoning sickness. Helps a lot with Mastery in giving a draw on opponent's turn. And combines even better with Visions.
3 Remand; Deck sorely needs 2-drops. And is the best bridge in the first four turns for this deck to get to five mana. I'd run four if I could find a cut.
The rest is pretty standard. Though I'd add a Gig if I expected a lot of Control.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I played this deck at GP Richmond and a good deal leading up to GP Richmond.
1: I don't think the deck is very good.
2: I think Mind Stone is a great card in the deck, and I haven't seen in anywhere. Extraplanar Lens is powerful as well, but very vulnerable to removal. Note that including Mind Stone or a similar card in your deck actually gives the deck a stronger nut draw: Turn 2 Mind Stone into Turn 3 Howling Mine + Miracled Temporal Mastery.
3: I think that the deck should play at least 8 howling mine effects.
4: The deck can definitely afford to play 3 Walk the Aeons
5: I think that Emrakul is a much better win condition than Elixir of Immortality. It achieves almost all of the same objectives and allows you to win the game in a timely fashion.
6: I suggest goldfishing with the deck and mechanizing your actions to reduce the number of mistakes that you make in tournaments. I used an extra turns token along with dice to keep track of extra turns, I put my mana sources in groups of five, and I flipped cards like Jace upside down to mark that I'd used them during the turn.
Mind Stone sound like an excellent idea. But where to add it? What to replace? Especially with 8 "Mines". Could you post your list, please?
~ Team Unicorn Motto
My GP Richmond list was something like:
23 Island
1 Emrakul
2 Jace Belaren
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell (Dictate of Kruphix seems like a clear upgrade)
4 Cryptic Command
3 Gigadrowse
4 Serum Visions
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Time Warp
3 Walk the Aeons
4 Mind Stone
@Parcher:
I like the all basics approach but I think you need at least one Mikokoro in there. It is a good land to act a mine if decks are slow and casting Thoughtseize+Abrupt Decays on your mines. Simply put this deck needs a mine effect in play to really get going and the Mikokoro sometimes act as bridge.
Dakra Mystic seems interesting. I might try him.
Dakra is interesting. I'll have to try it. I have my doubts about it, and I'm not sure what it should replace. I think I'd rather play a mine effect (which is generally harder to answer).
After trying many variations of Di's list, the only change I've made is -2 Telling Time; +2 Remand. I don't love Remand (particularly with Rites), but it is the best I've found so far for the slots. Remand is about as close to Time Walk as it gets in the early game, and the added power and tricks in stack wars has been better than what Telling Time offers (even though I love Telling Time).
@ Piceli89
If you haven't already, try Di's list for 20 matches. It is miles better than any of the mono blue lists I've tried. The sorcery speed of Rites is a very acceptable price given how much it improves your mana development. The greatly improved mana development changes so many things about the deck. Additionally, when you play a full 8 mine effects, Lab Maniac is the best win con without a doubt. It is very hard to stop, extremely consistent, and with 8 mines, a fairly fast combo. I wouldn't play with fewer than 8 mine effects at this point.
Snapcaster's flexibility is not as strong in the Ug list. If you have 6 land for Snapcaster + Cryptic, you are generally already winning via timewalks. I'm not convinced Snapcaster is worth it. I've tried several times to make him work in Ug, and he's not been amazing.
The best answer to fast, aggressive, creature-based decks is Gigadrowse (way stronger in the Ug version) + Fog. These matchups become significantly easier just by adding green. Completely worth it.
Why cut Temporal Mastery? I've been keeping notes as I play. I miracles about 1/3 of the time I see it, and it usually buys me a ton. When you miracles, you usually get to tap out for mine effects, which makes your next turn considerably stronger and makes the deck all the more consistent. Miracles here is kinda' like when you play those racing video games, and you hit the forward going arrows, and gives you a massive boost that lets you win the race. You don't know exactly where those arrows are going to pop up, but you know they will somewhere along the track, and they do a lot for you. This deck desperately wants to cast timewalks alongside mine effects, with no gaps, and miracles helps you do that.
I've found Snapcaster fails to replace Temporal Mastery, not just because of miracles, but because Snapper is far more conditional. It is subject to GY hate (you really don't always have cryptic available), and it requires having put a timewalk in the GY (and it costs 8 with WtA).
Snapcaster is a wincon, as is VCliq (they require more thought and protection), but Lab maniac is fast, consistent, it has fewer obstacles, it can win when combat just doesn't work (significant lifegain, for example), and takes up very little space in the deck.
There are better ways to curve out, especially with Rites. A CC distribution isn't a great way to analyze the deck.
The beatdown plan does give you the opportunity to win without comboing, and it can be done in the space of a few turns. That is significant, but not enough. If you can put together the handful of timeswalks necessary to safely beatdown, then you can generally just go off anyways. Why not improve your ability to just play timewalks with Rites?
Splashing is worth the cost. The deck doesn't take a lot of pain damage from getting the extra color when played correctly, and land disruption is far less effective against Ug sporting Rites. MUC versions cannot afford to miss a land drop, and they are generally mana starved. Play with Rites, and you will find yourself mana isn't hard to come by. MUC versions hang on a thread the entire time, barely squeaking out the win; I've found Ug to have far more room for error and accepting disruption.
Gigadrowse is significantly weaker in MUC versions. You rarely have spare cards in MUC, and you need every bit of CA you can muster, but you have more room in Ug. In Ug, I often prefer Gigadrowse to Cryptic Command (that's how good it is). The ability to use it very offensively in the early game is excellent.
I disagree with you about setting up on sorcery speed. The Ug version is very consistent in setting up. It is much more likely to have a mine effect (a condition for having set up usually), great at getting land into play, and has so much card draw it gets whatever pieces you need.
@ dafrk3in
Mind Stone is just weaker than Rites for mana development. Yeah, you'll get the 1 in a 10000 T2 Mindstone, T3 Miracles + Mine plays with Mind Stone (there are several incredibly rare T3 wins in this deck if you actually play Howling mine), but with T3 Rites (a common thing), you'll consistently have 5-6 mana for T4 hardcasts of timewalks.
Elixir usually isn't a win con; it is more of a win-con enabler (making a late Jace or Mikokoro capable of winning the game). Although, technically, you could go infinite (but not actually go infinite), Cryptic their board entirely (like Capsize), get enough disruption in hand, stall your opponent for a turn, then rinse and repeat until they naturally draw out. Doesn't work in timed rounds.
With Lab Maniac, Elixir + anything else is really just a backup.
I actually like controlling the turn I shuffle my GY. It has come in handy.
Emrakul is subject to instant speed GY hate, Elixir isn't. Plenty of GY hate in this format poses a problem for Emrakul. Cryptic becomes pretty essential (and you can't always guarantee it).
The 5 lifegain has been useful many times. Since I don't rely upon it with Lab Maniac, I use it more aggressively (don't protect it nearly as much), and the life gain is great against decks packing burn (which is a sore spot for a deck packing mines). Unlike Emrakul, it is useful when I'm not already winning (which I am doing at 15 lands).
Emrakul has some strengths: costs no mana, can be discarded (excepting GY hate), can't be countered, and at 15 land, it is a great time walk and alternate win condition (but at 15 land, you were winning).
peace,
4eak
The idea of Dakra Mystic is intriguing. It's probably better than other mines in a MUC shell, and at least offers some ability to block in a pinch. Though I wouldn't really consider having a Bolt sent at it as a victory, as I can easily see a hand falling apart without it and having a lot of reliance on it if a Dictate isn't in play. But if you're going a MUC route, I'd definitely run them.
@Piceli89
Your list is similar to what I tried when I first tried the deck, though without the Cliques and it ran Thassa. It's that type of list that drove me to a more streamlined build. With only four mines, it doesn't pack enough consistent draw to push it over the top, and you basically were blown out of any game where Dictate was Abrupt Decayed or something.
Regarding your list itself though, I fear it really doesn't accomplish any one task well at all. It's more of a literal control-combo hybrid, but it fails to perform either function sufficiently. As a combo deck, your reliance on Dictate is tremendous, and without it you get virtually no mileage out of the warps you run. Spending 5-6 mana for an extra land drop, cantrip, and maybe attack step is pretty poor in this format. The warps themselves aren't as impactful either as you only run eight of them (and the weaker of the trio in Walk the Aeons), so it's much harder to string them to gain full advantage of the engine. But again with only four mines and no access to Mikokoro or Jace, they won't have the kind of effect that they would in any other build. In the control aspect, you're a monoblue shell with little means of interacting with the opponent, essentially relying on being able to chain Cryptic Commands to victory. The downside though is that you can't consistently win off this method unlike a deck such as Scapeshift. Every deck has easy access to removal, and your win conditions are incredibly frail and stopped. So unless you're able to establish a serious chain of these over the course of multiple turns while also having the ability to string extra turns together, I don't see how you can win in a consistent manner. It just requires the deck to be able to pull off both the control and combo aspects of the deck simultaneously, which is far too much work for a deck with only four mines. I really think you're better off pushing further in either direction, going heavier in the turns route, or removing it all together.
4eak essentially said everything else that I was thinking.
For what it's worth though, I love Boomerang here. If you're running four snaps, I'd run four Boomerangs.
Telling Time is easily the worst card in the deck, so I'm not surprised you came to this conclusion. I'm constantly tinkering with those Telling Time/Remand slots in particular, and feel the other 56 slots are set in stone (though to be fair I did replace the 3rd Breeding Pool with an Island; the last shock just wasn't necessary). Remand is great in the early game, but it is utterly terrible on the draw and dead against any aggressive deck. And as mentioned is garbage once Rites is established. I've been happy with two still, though I could see a third. I'm also currently testing Exhaustion and Boomerang in the Telling Time slots. I think either way they will need to be disruption slots if not Telling Time, and Exhaustion fulfills this role quite well (but further clutters the 3cc slot) and Boomerang is a much better play off the draw and can be tremendous for tempo if you hit a land on the play turn two. Personally I favor Exhaustion because of its terrific synergy with Gigadrowse, better means to mitigate the slight advantage Rites provides the opponent, and its ability to randomly hose control players game one. But I'm always looking to try new options here.After trying many variations of Di's list, the only change I've made is -2 Telling Time; +2 Remand. I don't love Remand (particularly with Rites), but it is the best I've found so far for the slots. Remand is about as close to Time Walk as it gets in the early game, and the added power and tricks in stack wars has been better than what Telling Time offers (even though I love Telling Time).
I'm glad that you're so on board with Rites though; most players I've spoken to are skeptical and think the symmetrical nature is disastrous. Yet what many players fail to realize is that the opponent basically only has a one turn window to take advantage of this. If you drop Rites turn three and have access to six land by turn four, you threaten to go off. If you don't go off, odds are you're holding some combination of Cryptic/Remand/Gigadrowse up (Exhaustion is also particularly nasty here as they tend to drop their hand the turn they untap with Rites in play) and they don't get much of a turn anyway, and you go off the following turn. Very few decks can capably use that one turn they have to do something backbreaking enough to ruin the game, and if they don't they get overwhelmed by your card advantage.
I use Elixir quite aggressively, and try to control every turn that I use it. Being able to recycle early warps and cryptics can be great. The life gain is also vastly underrated in the UG build. Unlike in MUC shells, the UG splash will constantly lose life by ripping through fetchlands. This is especially important when you go off at lower life but need the land drops, and Elixir buys you a few lands itself that way. Plus being able to semi-walk an aggro opponent with it is an added benefit.Elixir usually isn't a win con; it is more of a win-con enabler (making a late Jace or Mikokoro capable of winning the game). Although, technically, you could go infinite (but not actually go infinite), Cryptic their board entirely (like Capsize), get enough disruption in hand, stall your opponent for a turn, then rinse and repeat until they naturally draw out. Doesn't work in timed rounds.
With Lab Maniac, Elixir + anything else is really just a backup.
I actually like controlling the turn I shuffle my GY. It has come in handy.
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