I don't care for decays and would opt for just krosan grips if you are worried about miracles and Omni. Sneak and show also has bloodmoon (and some dated miracles lists or etutor versions) so grip is more consistent to cast in these matches. The interaction on the stack is vital vs Omni, but sometimes they sculpt a hand with double omni in hand or emrakul as the first free spell. If you want other spells to jam you can look at Arcane Laboratory or Mana Maze. With Maze you can Play Intuition(I would side out gambles) in their upkeep for the Slaughter Games with a bonus side effect of Silence. Doesn't stop Spaghetti Master off an Omni, but with a virtual 6 Slaughter Games and other hate sided in you should increase win%. I counted 15 cards that can be sided in/out(with revoker naming Jace).
If you die to Lab Maniac too often then you can use Sudden Shock.
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 04-05-2015 at 05:57 PM.
I played the posted list at last weeks local legacy. Only three rounds and I went 0-3. Match ups were: 1) Doomsday, 2) Infect, 3) Omnitell. Not exactly a good meta choice. :POriginally Posted by Phelix
Against Doomsday I found the enlightened tutor worked well helping me find Ethersworn Canonist on turn two. However, he fooled me with a Monastery Mentor sideboard swap and I removed pretty much all creature hate. 0-2
Against infect I did okay. Game 1 he just had me with an exalted double invigorate glistner elf. Game 2 went really well as I had a wasteland - ghost quarter draw + mazes. I managed to smokestack him out and he scooped. Game three was an okay start if I could get the punishing fire online. Did not see a grove and apparently I don't even have a red source fetch target. This is a +1 for crop rotation as it allows finding the groves easily. I find the infect match up is 5050. Sometimes they have the wasteland or vines to push through the infect damage.
Against Omnitell - just got hosed. Nothing else to say. Boarded in as much hate as I could but no dice.
Overall I found scroll rack to be a dud. I had a soft spot in my heart for it as I used to play various version of parfait (Tax/Rack control). But I find that lands does not want to accumulate cards in hand and wait multiple turns to get a good scroll rack engine going. I am most likely going to make the switch to sylvan. As for the enlightened tutors.... I think the white splash is too light to justify another colour. I think that crop rotations are more important to find your silver bullets and especially grove of the burnwillows.
New list:
Maindeck: 61
Lands: 35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Not Lands: 26
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sylvan Library
4 Exploration
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
1 Worm Harvest
4 Life from the Loam
Sideboard: 15
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Zuran Orb
Changes to maindeck:
-1 Savannah, -1 Scroll Rack, -1 Karakas, -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Zuran Orb
+1 Taiga, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Creeping Tar pit, +3 Crop Rotation
Changes to SB:
-2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Karakas, +1 Zuran Orb
Comments:
I added the taiga because I want to be able to fetch red if needed. Sylvan Library for value, Creeping tar pit because I found the deck could use another blue source. Often I found tolaria west in my hand with insufficient mana to cast. 3 Crop rotations seems right. I found the zuran orb unnecessary in the main ... mind you I played a lot of combo. moving Karakas to the side is a bit iffy. Perhaps more of a local meta choice. Very rarely does anyone show up with sneak and show...and the only two reanimator decks currently being played are WGD and Necrotic ooze respectively.
Will be trying it again on Thursday. Will definitely come back with more results.
I've been testing your list a lot and have some questions for you. What is the Ensnaring Bridge for? I find myself always siding it out and it never being much more than a target for Abrupt Decay. Secondly, when do you like to bring in Thrun? It seems great in a lot of matchups, but not being able to recur him can be kinda daunting sometimes. Lastly, do you find yourself looking for an artifact replacement card for Ethersworn Canonist, like Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere? Or do you think the sideboard is as solid as it can be in these types of matchups. So far I really like the list and have been tuning it a little myself. Keep up the great work!
Hey,
I find that running ensnaring bridge can win you a lot game ones as they do not have any removal. Yes it is a prime abrupt decay target but easily recurred by academy runes. It also shuts down some sneak attack reanimator decks as you can usually play it turn two with an exploration or mox....or it can even be a show and tell target. Another good synergy is with worm harvest as you can choose to draw, swing with your worms, and then empty your hand again. A deck only running three maze of iths and two punishing fires sometimes just needs a way to stop the beats.
I noticed that Clifford Kumph's list ran ensnaring bridge in the side... http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=82025 and decided to opt for the standard crucible in the main. (SB only has thirteen cards...anyone know what else he played?)
One thing I have considered is cutting the tranquil thicket (which seems to be the trend), moving the karakas to the main, putting ensnaring bridge in the side and adding a crucible main (if you can follow that). I liked having the tranquil thicket with the enlightened tutor as you do not have to sacrifice your dredge for turn. Perhaps it is worth cutting. In my current meta there are a million surgical extractions running around. But I suppose if I had the crucible main then I would not need to hold up the thicket to save the loam...
I saw that Felix (Phelix) was running Thurn in the SB. Not really sold on him as I think Worm Harvest is enough. I can't really see what match up he would be useful coming in. Perhaps Felix can comment.
As for Ethersworn Canonist, I would not mind running a Trinisphere or a Thorn but in all honesty I would prefer another Krosan Grip. They are so strong. I find that the 4 spheres and 2 challice are sufficient. Sometimes I feel like going up to 4 Challice but then I feel like I am using up too many slots for combo. When you get a tuned decklist make sure to post. I love having more lists to compare against.
/c
Thats standard? Why wasnt I told?decided to opt for the standard crucible in the main.
I imagine this leads to E-Tutor being trickier to play? since forced shuffle kinda counters it for 2 life.In my current meta there are a million surgical extractions running around.
I played Thrun to have a card that would be useful in both the Bug and the miracles matchups. I would also board it in vs RUG, since it solves a bunch of problems for us there. Its not for every day use, and its not currenly in my board, but for that event it felt right. I already had worm harvest and a single smokestack. Sometimes going double stack is correct, but here it was not, due to the lack of miracles.I saw that Felix (Phelix) was running Thurn in the SB. Not really sold on him as I think Worm Harvest is enough. I can't really see what match up he would be useful coming in. Perhaps Felix can comment.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
What is the reason for no crucible in the main? I originally cut it because I found it redundant and too bulky. Mind you, I have not played as many games as I would like. But just on first impression I decided to cut.Thats standard? Why wasnt I told?
Sure...'standard' is a bit of an exaggeration. However, I do find that many control lands deck lists typically run one main especially with a bunch of DRS trying to eat up LFTL.
/c
The best gamble target against Omni is Iona, but besides OmniTell (and possibly other S&T decks) she has no purpose, so that's kinda narrow.
I've been playing with no Ensnaring Bridge at all for about a month now and haven't really needed it. Most decks that it's good against, aside from S&S and Reanimator, are generally easy matchups anyway. I feel most issues Bridge addresses can be just as easily handled by Engineered Explosives and careful play. I've been playing without a Tranquil Thicket nor a Crucible either, and haven't generally been punished for it. Sure, it sucks to have Loam exiled by Surgical, but most decks that play cards like Surgical or Extirpate are aggressive decks who have a bigger issue with cards like EE recursion or Punishing Fire. Either engine works well. Also, I like the addition of a Creeping Tar Pit as a backup slow kill and an all-around Abrupt Decay-proof Jace threatener. Plus, I have also found that my deck's hunger for blue mana truly is insatiable and restricts my plays to a great extent. Then again, I'm only running two Tropical Island at the moment. I'll post a list when I get home, as I'm on my cell phone right now and formatting is hard.
I've been pretty happy with Zuran Orb and Karakas main, although I can understand moving to the board. With burn an ever-present threat, I'm not sure I like playing Glacial Chasm and praying I can stabilize. The cushion is nice.
How do ya'll feel about Phyrexian Revoker? I don't see it as often as I'd like on here and MTGSalvation in lists. I've been a big fan as it comes down early, helps against a LOT of decks, and has legs for the beats. It's even got some play against combo, where a few extra bits of hate can only help. Do any of you guys have some insight on this card?
Read more posts and lists here and you'll see he is used quite often. Don't know what insight you hope to gain except for the pluses over Needle, so elaborate. He is helpful vs reanimator when they exhume a griselbrand and slows down aether vial decks. He can help compliment mana denial plan by naming drs and helps against combo decks using Petal/Mox/LED/SSG/ESG. Dazes are swapped by pierces and he blows by them. I find him most useful in painter and Tezz mu where he can conserve Grips and EE. <3 Revoker
Sorry I wasn't more clear. I was wondering how you felt about Revoker versus other types of hate bears like Containment Priest or Ethersworn Canonist. I see lists opt for those on occasion and I assumed it is just a local metagame choice, but was wondering if there was something I was missing because I generally feel that Revoker is generally universally better than similar options. Thanks again, Snorlax!
I noticed the same thing with blue when trying lists with only 2 trops. I think part of it may be my playstyle and overly relying on tolaria west when making intuition piles and I don't have to get a specific combo online to survive. I'm just more comfortable with the lists that run 3 tropical, 1 taiga, 1 whatever your last splash color is.I've been playing with no Ensnaring Bridge at all for about a month now and haven't really needed it. Most decks that it's good against, aside from S&S and Reanimator, are generally easy matchups anyway. I feel most issues Bridge addresses can be just as easily handled by Engineered Explosives and careful play. I've been playing without a Tranquil Thicket nor a Crucible either, and haven't generally been punished for it. Sure, it sucks to have Loam exiled by Surgical, but most decks that play cards like Surgical or Extirpate are aggressive decks who have a bigger issue with cards like EE recursion or Punishing Fire. Either engine works well. Also, I like the addition of a Creeping Tar Pit as a backup slow kill and an all-around Abrupt Decay-proof Jace threatener. Plus, I have also found that my deck's hunger for blue mana truly is insatiable and restricts my plays to a great extent. Then again, I'm only running two Tropical Island at the moment. I'll post a list when I get home, as I'm on my cell phone right now and formatting is hard.
I run revoker for exactly the reasons you mentioned. The only reason I don't really like it is being dead against omni which is obviously a problem everyone is having with the deck as a whole at the moment. I'd love to replace it with a magical hatebear that says fuck omnitell on it and isn't white. I haven't personally had much luck with the white splash even though it's been great when I can get a canonist online with a sphere or two. That just wasn't a thing that was happening consistently or quickly enough for me in game 2's to offset the cutting of the black cards. Phelix probably plays it out quite a bit differently and I look forward to his thoughts but I just felt like I ended up treading water with the white splash rather than improving anything.How do ya'll feel about Phyrexian Revoker? I don't see it as often as I'd like on here and MTGSalvation in lists. I've been a big fan as it comes down early, helps against a LOT of decks, and has legs for the beats. It's even got some play against combo, where a few extra bits of hate can only help. Do any of you guys have some insight on this card?
His versatility makes him a good start for the sb(recouped via Academy), but depending on your color splash you can form a better g2/3 plan in conjunction with other sb cards. Some sb go more creatures (8-10) and others use less. Using Just Revokers is uncommon since removal is taken out postboard and creatures stick around longer.
Yes many of these lists are meta calls, so look at what is performing in your area or the tier of the event to help you arrange a comprehensive sb and/or color splash. Will you prepare for most prominent archetype, or just lists that place high, or try to tackle both with some sb tech for t8?
Practice. A lot.
Hi, that'd be me. The two missing cards in the SB were 1 Dark Depths, and 1 Thespian's Stage. I also had Glacial Chasm in the main, so a total of 61 cards. SCG really butchered my name, and my decklist, it was pretty sweet.
im not playing revokers, since they would have just 2 uses for me.
Sneak attack.
LED
(Deathrite Shaman.)
(senseis divining top)
SneakShow is not very played at the events I attend, and im doing very well in the storm combo matchups already. (Currently a 7-0 run vs storm in paper, winning game one only once)
Then there is deathrite shaman. I dont give a hoot about it in BUG since thats a very good matchup. im roughly 25-3 against that in paper without revoker, since its just such a favourable matchup where you play 61 cards vs 1-2 true name nemesis. Id love to stop it in elves, since that matchup is tricky, but i dont think revoker is my best bet there.
thats why im not playing it :)
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
on the white splash:
I go to and fro on it. But i do really love it. It does sometimes force me to choose between either going down to 2 trops, cutting a taiga, or something else. I currently dont run zuran orb or crucible of worlds, so i guess i could go for the full 6 duals.
Back when i didnt play karakas, (preban) the splash was trickier, but now its fine. We just need to think ahead. whenever we bord in the white cards, we dont ever want the taiga anyway, and casting intuition is usually also not going to happen (it gets boarded out in most cases) -this then means that having less blue is fine. you might even take out a tolaria west when boarding there, since CIP lands suck vs combo. Usually the focus here is to get B/W mana quick. Where blue mana is alot less important. We win with the nonland permanents here, and fancy tutoring is just too slow most of the time. The only thing we want to tutor for is chalice.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
Mana Maze for combo maybe? Its effect is similar to canonist. It can't attack, but is on color. (Also you can't ruins it, but alas...Likely awful, but I think the card is neat.)
I have been having a lot of trouble against the merfolk player in our local meta. Funny enough there is a lot of combo decks and somehow I am managing to squeak by against them. Last week we were the top pair on two separate occasions (not surprising to see merfolk beating up on combo decks). What I thought should be a cake-walk match-up is proving to be very difficult. Early threats (TNN) and early disruption (cursecatcher and counter magic) is getting me each time. Here is a link to a poorly recorded video with no sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxE6zRgUoo (Lands vs Merfolk). Unfortunately only two games as the third was edited out for some reason.
Merfolk
Tabernacle is very good against their jam a bunch of lords plan, and they can’t beat Ensnaring Bridge. On occasion, they can bury you in permission and sideboard back to basics, but it’s rare that they have permission with a formidable clock. EE lock = gg.
link to game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxE6zRgUoo
G1 went okay. @44s I accidentally dropped worm harvest and we had a good laugh.
He scooped to a resolved smokestack. I had a pretty good glacial lock going. For SB: -1 karakas, -3 crop rotations, +2 krosan grip, +1 abrupt decay, +1 EE. Perhaps crop rotations is not right to side out as I want access to mazes, academy ruins, tabernacle, chasm, and grove. Actually, against a deck as aggressive as merfolk it is probably not right to side them out. Perhaps cut things like Smokestack, worm harvest, a stage... I am still pretty new to the deck so it might be a bit painful to watch the video. :)
G2 I kept based on a punishing fire + grove hand. perhaps a bit sketchy as it does not deal with TNN and hosed by wasteland.
@11min I think wasteland the mutavault would be correct to keep him off TNN ... but instead I went with library. I figured he had the vial anyways and I needed to start digging for answers.
@13:15 I went for an intuition to get academy going. unlucky force.
@16:30 my life was low and I needed a shuffle based on the last look from library. I went for the intuition to get the EE even in the face of the relic. I got EE, ensnaring bridge, and glacial chasm. I am not sure if he had wastland in hand but let's just assume he top decked it and made the choice to give me EE. Unfortunately it was too slow as he managed to resolve a lord + image copying lord. I guess a grip on the aether vial earlier might have made a difference. lots of lines and interesting game.
@22min we had a bit of a confusion as he forgot to play his wasteland and he asked to play it during my sylvan look. I let him play it but it caused too much confusion so he took it back. (This is a pretty casual game and we are all friends). Did not really matter because I did not get any gas from the look and scooped.
I have not played against death and taxes yet with this deck but I imagine it is equally bad. Karakas, + 'scumbag bird', vial tricks with flickerwisp, ports and wastelands seems so hard.
I saw this interesting 'lands-based' deck with a living wish board: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76810 played by Chris Yarbrough. It looked appealing because of the maindeck supreme verdicts which seems like it can buy you a lot of time. I am pretty much playing lands to get away from playing FOW. :P But the wish board is something I will definitely consider. I will admit that living wish for peace keeper in that G2 I played would have been pretty sweet.
/c
Missed library activation at 13:40, but playing the waste from hand was the play for the turn to stay alive so it had no bearing on the game except some foresight for the next turn. Get into the habbit of slowing things down in you upkeep for a second or use the opponent's eot to review your upkeep because you may lose your own creatures to tabernacle or even a chasm. At 23:20 you chose to draw exploration for some reason and missed your land drop(wasteland). You could only make time for exploration the next turn and didn't set this up properly with library. 25:05 most players or even judges would call for slow play and could be worse if you had warnings earlier in the day because you eat 45 seconds before the draw step. Lots of players will call judges vs this deck if caught in that losing position or to take you out of focus, so practice picking up the pace. You should know at his eot that Academy will not work, so move on to using the pfire you know is on top. Once you look at the top 3 you scoop because you want a game 3. Understandable because I love playing vs merfolk.
Seriously though, even with you missing the waste the previous turn you still have enough mana and grove triggers to kill both lords, but now with vial tapped you have the leisure of another turn to loam, grip vial, and setup ee@3 before he gets a force.
Draw the pfire-->target the phantasm-->sacs to own trigger-->bring back pfire with one of the groves to kill the other lord. If he wastes a grove with pfire on the stack then floatfrom the targeted grove and wait for pfire to resolve and use the other grove to trigger pfire to then use the red mana floating from the wasted grove. The missed wasteland is needed here to pay for a daze common in late the game vs merfolk players on the play. With waste in play you would have a trop untapped to follow up with an exploration if daze was not played on the pfire. He should then concede on his draw step. Post another vid vs mefolk in the future if you want more tips. Good luck!
EDIT:
Would have sided out karakas, bog, ghost quarter, and worm harvest.
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 04-13-2015 at 06:04 PM.
Yeah it was my first day playing with library and it definitely was not the first time missing it. Slowing it down for a sec is a good habit to get into but you are also right in the sense that if you want to win with lands you need to play in tempo. (I should know as I am also a bridge player :) )Missed library activation at 13:40, but playing the waste from hand was the play for the turn to stay alive so it had no bearing on the game except some foresight for the next turn. Get into the habbit of slowing things down in you upkeep for a second or use the opponent's eot to review your upkeep because you may lose your own creatures to tabernacle or even a chasm. At 23:20 you chose to draw exploration for some reason and missed your land drop(wasteland). You could only make time for exploration the next turn and didn't set this up properly with library. 25:05 most players or even judges would call for slow play and could be worse if you had warnings earlier in the day because you eat 45 seconds before the draw step. Lots of players will call judges vs this deck if caught in that losing position or to take you out of focus, so practice picking up the pace. You should know at his eot that Academy will not work, so move on to using the pfire you know is on top. Once you look at the top 3 you scoop because you want a game 3. Understandable because I love playing vs merfolk.
Seriously though, even with you missing the waste the previous turn you still have enough mana and grove triggers to kill both lords, but now with vial tapped you have another turn to loam, grip vial, and setup ee@3 before he gets a force.
Draw the pfire-->target the phantasm-->sacs to own trigger-->bring back pfire with one of the groves to kill the other lord. If he wastes a grove with pfire on the stack then float
Not sure why I drew exploration at 23:20 ... maybe I was thinking to try and get mana in play for academy ruins loop. Misplay for sure.
Yeah... I guess I did have enough to pfire both merfolk ....I must love playing merfolk as well. :) I do have to get a little better with punishing fire interactions. There is a lot of stuff happening in lands so one needs to play sharp.
Thanks for the insight! I will hopefully record some more horrendous lands matches to post up here.
/c
I noticed that your deck made it to it's own category on goldfish: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...ol-lands#paper
(still with the incorrect list)
/c
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