[Deck] RUG Lands

[snorlaxcom]

Perhaps, my experience with the matchup is limited. From the matchups played I experienced the matchup manageable through the early game. But even so, your arguments only hold true if you reach that lategame where you can abuse twest and loam. Sorceryspeed Twest requiring 2offcolor blues is a big minus in comparison to crops oncolor instant G, especially in a manadenialgame. An RG player should attempt to control you in the early game, as he has more explo's/bonds, loams/gambles and crops into waste or bog to deny you your own loamgame.

Offcolor blue in RUG is like saying Red is offcolor for RG. Twest supplements the crops RUG runs fyi.

[Dice_Box]

RUG's ability to control who has a fastbond effect in play and even mox also impacts this waste-war in addition to usually packing gq to trump RG.

Sadly true. That card is so important in the mirror.

Ingo:
Speed advantage goes to me. (R/G) The time it can take to do crazy things in Combo Lands is nuts. Having killed someone on the second turn before is quite something for this deck. Mana costs go to me as well. My tutors are cheaper, my spells lower to the ground, I am not trying to pull anything but Loam out of the Grave and that's a consistent two mana over what some Artifacts cost to recycle.

Control goes to them. If my speed does not win me the game then I am not likely winning the game. They play better than I do on a single land drop a turn and they can make sure I only get a single land drop a turn. They can drop a Crucible and then not have to spend two mana a turn to start a Waste-Lock. They can Waste their own Bog with less impact to themselves than we can. In short if speed fails, they win. Also while their main tutor is more expensive, they get to reuse the blasted thing.

RUG hold's the cards in the Mirror. Not even close. Sure we can have the God hands and they can have no answer, but that is true of every match you can play against. If the game does what is is meant to when two control decks go at it then they win. Because Speed goes to me, the endgame sure as fuck does not.

[Offensive_username]

Alright guys, forgive my ignorance here as I rarely get a chance to play...


I'm running an updated list sans Crop Rotation. I love the idea of Crop Rotation, but it feels like running enlightened tutor all over again. As soon as a loam hits the graveyard, generally I'm dredging. Is a 4x Crop Rotation worth running just hoping you have it in your opening hand and/or mulliganing aggressively for it, or have I been misplaying forever and there is some way to know when NOT to dredge in order to draw one?

The fact that everybody is running them now should speak for itself as far as worth, but it seems that anytime I jam an instant or sorcery in my 60 it almost always just gets dredged and unused so I fear there may be a basic concept to the deck that I am missing....

[snorlaxcom]

Alright guys, forgive my ignorance here as I rarely get a chance to play...


I'm running an updated list sans Crop Rotation. I love the idea of Crop Rotation, but it feels like running enlightened tutor all over again. As soon as a loam hits the graveyard, generally I'm dredging. Is a 4x Crop Rotation worth running just hoping you have it in your opening hand and/or mulliganing aggressively for it, or have I been misplaying forever and there is some way to know when NOT to dredge in order to draw one?

The fact that everybody is running them now should speak for itself as far as worth, but it seems that anytime I jam an instant or sorcery in my 60 it almost always just gets dredged and unused so I fear there may be a basic concept to the deck that I am missing....

Crop supplements the control game before Intuition comes online and Stifles opposing wastelands to maintain a stable manabase. Twest tutors for more cards yes, but the oncolor instant Crop is too good right now in the early game. I do admit the power does drop off compared to other things we can do in the late game, but its early game versatility makes the deck more consistent vs faster decks.

It has more roles since the Etutor days since newer land cards have become more powerful ie bog, karakas(now being more relevant md), getting Academy into play vs many decks with low CMC, and of course jamming the combo etc. The main cards to "draw" towards are still Intuition and Exploration, so Crops should not affect this reasoning. However, having Crops in the deck allow us to better play around gy hate and not commit twest or loam to the yard. In these cases Crop feels much better to cast vs Intuition, too.

But no. You don't muligan into a crop rotation unless you know opp is on reanimator and maybe dredge. Muligan normally, but now you don't have to wait for twest to come online with UU and you are able to piece missing lands for your hand to work when assessing muligan decisions. I wouldn't run 4, since it is meant to bridge the gap in the early game, but it is not always needed at every point in the game. 3 is where I'm most comfortable, but 2 is common, too.

[Crimhead]

Thanks for the rational reply, on a topic that's probably sensitive.

I actually for got this was sensitive! For the record I play both builds and have naught but love and respect or R/G, and I do not consider it any less "pure" or less of a "Lands deck". This should be nothing but a pleasant conversation!

And I'm not trying to say that RUG is definitively better in the current meta. Rather that since the banning of DTT, RUG has probably gained some ground, and is more likely to be the better choice now than it was last Spring.

I'm also very much aware that I'm personally better suited for RUG - it just seems to jive a little better with whatever strengths I have as a player. So when I compare the decks based on theory or my own results, RUG will always look more favourable than it is simply because it better suits my understanding of Legacy.

Game1 there's only StP, or dropping Waste, Karakas and Planeswalkers that can happen. Wasteland is dodgeable by creating a token in your turn, and you'll see Karakas and Planeswalkers coming if you wait for your opponent's EOT.

But you can't do both! Sometimes you wait till EOT but the drop a Wasteland before that. Other times you build it your own turn, and they show up with Karakas or a walker. :(

Blockers are a thing too. Entreat or Clique (or any number of things D&T can vial in) can buy them a turn, which can beget more turns. If there's no pressure on, go for it! If there's too much pressure, better pray to Marit Lage! But sometimes building tokens which they can hold off means the difference between having the resources to survive vs being overcome by the pressure. I find these are some of the tougher calls - with either build. Quite possibly I lean towards control too often, and that's why I do better with RUG?

Regarding your quote, you can turn this comparison around as well. (Recurring) Marit Lage also works very good versus fair decks, because they're slower and depending on your hand/gamestate you can afford it to be the unfair deck, especially because loam adds a dimension of inevitability. So if the combo is good versus fair decks, maybe there's no reason for EE/Ruins, as they're good MU's anyway.

Absolutely agreed! With some of these wildly favourable MUs, the only thing that can go wrong is if you get unlucky and they run away with the game. A faster win or more reliable board control are both highly effective at preventing this. That's why I think the builds are roughly the same vs most fair decks.

Of course they're not going to be exactly the same! I think, eg, against Thresh I prefer RUG (better vs Mongoose), but against TA I prefer R/G (better against DRS). But overall these fair MUs are close enough not to be the deciding factor when comparing the builds.

But a fast combo has the additional advantage of being the best possible preboard strategy against bad MU's.

Pretty much this. R/G gives a better strategy for decks that are a little too fast for our liking (eg, Storm, S&T, possibly Infect), while RUG is better against the slower decks that have more answers to ML (eg, Miracles, D&T). The difference between RUG and RG is more pronounced with these decks that with most other creature decks IMO. So really unless your playing in a big event, your local meta should dictate the better positioned build.

Finally I'll add that sometimes the differences depend on the lists. RUG almost always runs main deck Bog, Karakas, and GQ. This T ves it a big edge in certain MUs if RG doesn't happen to be packing the relevant utility Land. We might thing RUG is generally better vs a certain deck because it always has access to (insert utility land) whereas RG only sometimes has it. Obviously these generalisations will not always apply.

LOL that deck is so bad. Look at the competition during the scg open he won. Total n00bs to Lands strategies. Not having port nor exploration and 1pfire? Don't get me started on the low land count g1 and reliance on 2-3 Urborg to cast spells. Many instances wasting the urborg put the deck at no colored mana. I don't expect the deck to perform against competent players in today's meta. His current sb is still all over the place. Bending over to combo looks to be the strategy here. I couldn't imagine Lands having a worse matchup vs burn until now.

To be fair most lists I've seen these days have more PFs and Explorations, looking a little more like a traditional Lands build. I this no of it as a cross between Lands and Loam Pox; shoring up most of the weakness suffered by the latter.

Granted the list is "all over the place", but this deck has not received very much in the way of attentive development - his list looks very experimental. If one day more people take an interest in the build, we might see a more refined version. I think you're a little too quick to dismiss the archetype.

As for combo, I would think Ravens Crime (with Entomb support) + Lilis + Smallpox doesn't exactly fold to combo!

[Ingo]

RUG hold's the cards in the Mirror. Not even close. Sure we can have the God hands and they can have no answer, but that is true of every match you can play against. If the game does what is is meant to when two control decks go at it then they win. Because Speed goes to me, the endgame sure as fuck does not.

Still I'm not convinced. Yes RG is more combo-oriënted and the combo isn't what you need in the mirror. But the Controlpieces of Rug (EE/Ruins and Twest) aren't overly useful either.
Both decks want loam and accelerant in the early game, and cut of the loamgame for the opponent. Comes down to comparing accelerants (explo/bonds) and tutors (gamble/intuition and crop/Twest), of which RG has most and cheapest.
Cutting of the opponent's game is done by tutoring for Bog. RG has the 4 crops for the job, whereas Rug has 2 and 2 Twests, but here crops speed and 1cc is much more relevant than the recurring ability of Twest. Also, Twest requires 1UU. I often have problems transmuting Twest in regular games because of the double blue, let alone in a manadenial matchup.

Offcolor blue in RUG is like saying Red is offcolor for RG. Twest supplements the crops RUG runs fyi.

The previous is what I mean with offcolor. Crop requires G (of which you have plenty), but Twest's 1UU transmutecost is often hard with 3fetch/3trops. It's also sorceryspeed, so ports can lock down the blue mana too. Gamble and Intuition could get Bog as well, but here gamble's easier cast as well.
Although loam+Twest is superpowerful, I feel like the mirror's decisive moments happen earlier, in getting the engine going (tutoring for loam+accelerant), manadenialing the opponent, and denying the opps game (tutoring for bog). All of which RG does faster, at the cost of a worse lategame (which RG should avoid by exploiting it's speed).
EE/Ruins can be useful, but honestly, the amount of permanents it hits (explo/bond and mox) are limited and symmetrical, so I don't find it a really dominating element in the comparison.

[Ingo]

But you can't do both! Sometimes you wait till EOT but the drop a Wasteland before that. Other times you build it your own turn, and they show up with Karakas or a walker. :(

No you can't. But depending on the matchup it's usually clearer what to do, as most decks run wasteland but walkers and Karakas are not as common. In case of doubt, it's better to wait (and risk them landing wasteland), as the wasteland only delays the combo until you find your own wasteland.

Blockers are a thing too. Entreat or Clique (or any number of things D&T can vial in) can buy them a turn, which can beget more turns. If there's no pressure on, go for it! If there's too much pressure, better pray to Marit Lage! But sometimes building tokens which they can hold off means the difference between having the resources to survive vs being overcome by the pressure. I find these are some of the tougher calls - with either build. Quite possibly I lean towards control too often, and that's why I do better with RUG?

Blockers have to dealt with sooner or later, so you could ask yourself if there's a point in waiting. If it possibly exposes Marit to Jace, Lili or Karakas, it's better to control further. Unless you can loop the combo with loam (and exploration) and you can eventually push through over multiple turns.

Pretty much this. R/G gives a better strategy for decks that are a little too fast for our liking (eg, Storm, S&T, possibly Infect), while RUG is better against the slower decks that have more answers to ML (eg, Miracles, D&T).

These are indeed the two commonly run matchups where RUG has a clear edge over RG, as they both have multiple ways to deal with ML, and where the sweeping powers of EE deals with counterbalance and weenies.
I see RG already as favored versus D&T (where RUG is even more favored), and it's especially the Miracles matchup that makes a difference (as I see it slightly unfavorable for RG and slightly favored for Rug).

To be fair most lists I've seen these days have more PFs and Explorations, looking a little more like a traditional Lands build. I this no of it as a cross between Lands and Loam Pox; shoring up most of the weakness suffered by the latter.

I have played my fair share of pox as well, and it's still a petdeck of mine. From a pox-point of view, this deck solves important issues: a fast wincon, and cardadvantage through Punishing Fire, Loam and Liliana.
Smallpox and Liliana are essentially the strongest cards from a poxdeck, and can do very different things than Lands. Smallpox can be manadenial through fetchland or basicland protection. Liliana is a non-graveyard-dependant control element. Both cards make a matchup like Reanimator much easier than from a Lands-point of view.
But essentially, I do not think of this as a Landsdeck (more as a poxdeck), because loaming makes so many cards go to waste. I think loam should perform the same role as it has in 4cloam here, create cardadvantage through Cyclelands/mox/(and Liliana), but not an engine on it's own. Especially since the deck runs 4 entomb's, i'd be inclined to cut loams down to 2. And devote more sideboardspace to combo, especially in the form of discard since there's so many black sources. And because discard potentially works against any problem, be it fast combo, gravehate, bloodmoon, ...

[Crimhead]

I made top eight in a 21 person event last weekend running this:

3 fetch
2 trop
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 forest
1 chasm
3 grove
2 twest
1 bog
1 karakas
1 academy
3 stage
4 waste
4 port
1 ghost q
2 dd
3 maze
1 tab
1 fen

1 zorb
3 intuition
1 crucible
3 pfire
4 loam
2 crop
4 exploration
4 mox
2 ee

sb
1 crop
2 decay
3 kgrip
4 sphere of resistance
2 Pithing Needle
3 chalice

R1 vs Shardless (2-0)
Game one I dealt handily with his threats and he scooped when When I started GQing him (he'd feched all three basics). G2 I cast a T1 Intuition off double Mox - and had such a good hand I grabbed both combo lands. He dropped a DRS, follwed by a Revoker (naming Mox) over the next couple turns, so I had to slow down and PF for a bit before closing it out.

R1 vs RGCL (2-1)
My opponent was playing Lands for the first time, not familiar with the mirror (or even very knowledgeable of the RUG build), so I had a very big edge. He mulled pretty hard G1 and scooped to mana denial. G2 he hit my Mox with a T2 Grip and I fell too far behind to recover. G3 I finally got my Waste-Bog engine going, but not before I killed his Exploration and stymied his mana with GQ (an all-star here). He made a bad play early - CRing but forgetting to bring in Bog! I'd thought he must not have had one till he commented later on not drawing it yet. I'm sure he'll be a tougher foe when next we meet.

R3 vs ANT (2-1)
I lost G1 in the normal fashion. G2 I played Fetch, Exploration, Wasteland; followed by T2 Stage + Depths. My token met Chain of Vapors on his second end step, but left him no answers for my T3 Shpere. A turn or two later I had recurred the combo and swung for lethal. G3 early G-probe revealed my 2x Sphere opener, so he went off in a desperate hurry, only to die to Ad Nauseam.

R4 vs D&T (intentional draw)
Being the only two players 3-0 (with the runners up being only 2-1), my opponent wanted to double draw into the finals. I kind of wanted to play (I don't get out as much as I'd like), but this would be an exhausting match if I ended up going all the way to the top. Also I hadn't had a smoke recently, and I think I'd pissed that opponent off in a previous event. So I accepted the draw.

R5 vs Thresh (intentional draw)
I wanted to play this one too, and could have easily claimed the top seed. But my opponent needed the point to guarantee a seat in top8, and damned if I was going to kick the most lopsided MU in the whole format out of the finals!

The top8 was not a friendly field. Besides Thresh, my best MUs were RGCL, Miracles, and D&T. The other three players being Painter, Storm and Reanimator. I got Reanimator. :(

I mulled once or twice both games but couldn't get a Crop Rotation for Bog. G1 I cast Intuition, but he'd be reanimating the next turn so Bog would be too late. I had no Exploration, so Figuring the combo would be too slow I grabbed Loam, Karakas, and Fen. He got out a Grave Titan, which I was keeping at bay with a Maze plus looping EE. The odd counter-spell had him whittle me down enough that I needed to sac 3 lands to Zorb just before I had enough mana to start looping Fen. G2 I opened with a Sphere, and my Chalice on 1 met a T2 Daze (probably I should have waiting on this). Again I had Karakas, and again it was his Grave Titan vs my EE. Only this time he brought in an Inkwell Leviathan too and I couldn't hang in.

8th-5th place reimbursed my entry plus transportation (in the form of credit), but I'm not happy with my game vs Reanimator. I wish I remembered more details - next time I'll try to take notes.

Does anybody have tips or advise for this MU? What is the best way to attack their game plan? What should I bring in (and take out)? I have 2x Ensnaring Bridge kept aside for Lands, but I really don't like them very much. I'm not looking to change my build over this one MU (unless there is something more versatile and less constricting than EB), but I would like to improve my strategy for this MU if anybody can offer me some tips. :)

[kravkenov]

Against Reanimator, game 1 is not very favorable.
Game 2, Sphere of Resistance and Chalice @1 help a lot. Keep Crop Rotation for Karakas or Bog.
I usually side-out 3x Punishing Fire, 3x Explosives, 1x Intuition/Worm Harvest, side-in 4x Sphere of Resistance, 3x Chalice of the Void.

[snorlaxcom]

G1; You can safely hide behind chasm if they are trying to go wide or win via a shroud dude. You can then play a Tab to have them tap out each turn (more effective g2/3 with sphere+chalice) then wreck their mana. I keep one EE post board to handle a needle they use on maze/stage/karakas, along with 2 kgrip since my reanimator opp's love Leylines...

But otherwise, why did you Intuition when you did? I'm confused. Did you assume he had a pitch outlet for a dude and a reanimation spell in the same turn? So a stinkweed Imp situation? Without giving me any details I'm assuming you played the Intuition as soon as you hit 3 mana then. You need to wait on Intuition in this case because he hasn't committed to a fatty yet. Most players send Grisel to the bin so you can cast Intuition in response to the reanimation spell on him and use the karakas in this case. Intuition is reactive here and can't be proactive since you have no other action. If he still got titan then Intuition for Loam, maze, tab to slow down the next reanimation.

G2; The debate is whether he has daze or not. There is nothing we can do about Force, but him having daze doubles the chances of getting an early lock piece countered. We have to be aggressively playing lock pieces and I'd feel safe vs force since t1 sphere stuck. Daze sucks on the draw, but they have few ways to handle the bombs we throw in the early turns and we don't always have t1/2 mox to play around the Daze. In other words assume Daze is in his deck all of the games, but play as if he doesn't have it (jam it). If he casts Daze our t2 we buy 2 turns of him doing nothing since he has to pick up his land. This the best that could happen given your starting hand (not sure what you scryed) and they are also a land light deck, so missing land drops or throwing out wasteland targets for us can happen. Drawing another lock piece is a thing, too.

sb
out
1 loam, crucible, ee, dd, fen (is about early game and titan nulls this)
3 pfire

in
1 crop
3 chalice
4 sphere

[meso94]

I made top eight in a 21 person event last weekend running this:

3 fetch
2 trop
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 forest
1 chasm
3 grove
2 twest
1 bog
1 karakas
1 academy
3 stage
4 waste
4 port
1 ghost q
2 dd
3 maze
1 tab
1 fen

1 zorb
3 intuition
1 crucible
3 pfire
4 loam
2 crop
4 exploration
4 mox
2 ee

sb
1 crop
2 decay
3 kgrip
4 sphere of resistance
2 Pithing Needle
3 chalice

What did you mean for "fen", is it the land from BFZ that force to sacrifice a creature for the opponent?? Is it a viable option for the deck?

[CptHaddock]

What did you mean for "fen", is it the land from BFZ that force to sacrifice a creature for the opponent?? Is it a viable option for the deck?

Yes, I assume that they are talking about blighted fen. Yes it's a very viable option for the deck, I would not play more than 1 however. It's a pretty nice having a reccurable edict effect that actually fits our gameplan.

[Anen]

Yes, I assume that they are talking about blighted fen. Yes it's a very viable option for the deck, I would not play more than 1 however. It's a pretty nice having a reccurable edict effect that actually fits our gameplan.

I am still a bit bothered by the fact that it costs a full 6 mana. Yes the effect is powerful, but is it worth 6 mana?

[Crimhead]

But otherwise, why did you Intuition when you did? I'm confused...

Becuase this is a MU I've not played very much. I was a bit nervous and I played badly. :(

sb
out
1 loam, crucible, ee, dd, fen (is about early game and titan nulls this)
3 pfire

in
1 crop
3 chalice
4 sphere

I usually side-out 3x Punishing Fire, 3x Explosives, 1x Intuition/Worm Harvest, side-in 4x Sphere of Resistance, 3x Chalice of the Void.

I think EE is also good against Titan tokens, and can make Fen useful there too. Usually I take out the Forest when I'm not facing Moon or Wasteland. Sometimes I'll take out a Grove too if I'm losing the pfires. How many green sources are too few?

Thanks a lot for the advice/discussion!

[kravkenov]

How many green sources are too few?

I really dont like siding-out green mana source. And even if there is no Wasteland, your Forest is the only one land that will still produce green under Blood Moon (not specific to Reanimator match-ups).

Against Titan's token's, Tabernacle coupled with mana denial or Chasm with a bit of setup are (imo) better options.

[Crimhead]

I really dont like siding-out green mana source. And even if there is no Wasteland, your Forest is the only one land that will still produce green under Blood Moon (not specific to Reanimator match-ups).

Against Titan's token's, Tabernacle coupled with mana denial or Chasm with a bit of setup are (imo) better options.

I often take my basic out but only when I'm expecting no nonbasic hate whatsoever. Nonbasic hate is pretty much the only reason we run it, no?

I think you are right about Tabernacle > EE here. A good intuition might have been Loam/Tabernacle/GQ (I had the Maze in hand).

[kravkenov]

I often take my basic out but only when I'm expecting no nonbasic hate whatsoever. Nonbasic hate is pretty much the only reason we run it, no?

I think you are right about Tabernacle > EE here. A good intuition might have been Loam/Tabernacle/GQ (I had the Maze in hand).

If there is absolutely no lands-hate, there is no risk to side the forest out. But in general manner, I don't like siding out too much land. Against Titan, Maze dosent prevent the tokens because the ability triggers when Titan attack. But it does save you 6 life :)

[snorlaxcom]

Becuase this is a MU I've not played very much. I was a bit nervous and I played badly. :(




I think EE is also good against Titan tokens, and can make Fen useful there too. Usually I take out the Forest when I'm not facing Moon or Wasteland. Sometimes I'll take out a Grove too if I'm losing the pfires. How many green sources are too few?

Thanks a lot for the advice/discussion!

Against decks where you have to mul hard for interaction t1/2 I opt for the highest number of green sources your list allows in order to play Crop and remember that I advised to side in an extra Crop g2/3. Keep that early play open. Our advantage is that they must play a fatty at sorcery speed. There are many instances where the t1 chalice gets forced and the Crop becomes a big game as they start to jam to race lock pieces. Coupled with port/waste Crop gets better as they find less windows to use lands and go off of petals. Chalice at zero does some work if you have the luxury of multiples in hand.

The manabase has to support the sb changes starting from what turn you can afford to miss on green sources. Vs storm combo I'd be fine cutting a grove as we deploy brown hate g2/3 and loams are sometimes trimmed.

If you want to keep fen I can see cutting a DD#2 instead.



I have my Lands list on MTGO along with games recorded that I want to post. Once I figure out how to overlay my own commentary/play-by-play I'll post them up here.

[Arksz]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98022


Fourth place in this weeks SCG legacy event. More of a bug control deck splashing lands wincons and card advantage?
Sorry if this is already a thing, a bit out of the loop.

[Ricardio]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98022


Fourth place in this weeks SCG legacy event. More of a bug control deck splashing lands wincons and card advantage?
Sorry if this is already a thing, a bit out of the loop.

I believe I met this guy at Charlotte. His deck was very foiled, overall pretty. but he was very adamant that it was in fact a bug control deck with a lands splash. It plays the lands game in the way that you get hold of control and stop them from casting things but it has other avenues of attack, also counterspells. Looked good when I saw him playing it. Nice guy, fairly competent. The burn matchup is bad.