Their deck is filled with awkward durdly cards that don't do much when Blood Moon isn't online. My general rule of thumb in the matchup is to never keep a hand that doesn't have a fetch or a way to get a green source. Preboard they're not gonna beat you unless they combo off and setting EE on 1 or 2 can disrupt that enough that you can have enough time to draw into a Mox Diamond with your Forest in play so you can set EE on 3 to blow up Blood Moon and once your deck isn't disrupted, you can go completely ham. Punishing Fire deals with all of their other creatures (and Magus). Postboard we get access to Krosan Grip, Revoker, and Chalice, each of which is a major problem for them (they can't combo if you land a Chalice on 1). I also bring in Dark Confidants b/c they draw you to your Krosan Grips etc.Originally Posted by caesar
The only thing I'd add here is that against inexperienced miracles players, Bob can come in as a quick clock with chalice at 1 if they board out terminus and try to rely on swords against marit. Well, that and that a quarters lock is a real threat to miracles--they can't fight if they can't tap mana, and if you take out two of their plains with quarters, you can generally lock them off of ever casting an entreat, making their endgame outs all weak to punishing fire lock.
also smokestack, and to a (way) lesser extent Worm harvest, is your salvation here.
it basically Wastes fetchlands, Dodges counterbalance and leaves with w. less mana, making everything you want to see happen, a more likely scenario.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
played a small event tonight. went 4-0. beat manaless round one, g1 I went forest->diamond pitching bog->exploration->trop pass. He went draw-discard golgari grave-troll go. I was sad for a second, then untapped, intuitioned for crucible, loam, academy ruins, he gave me loam, played some lands, loamed back ruins. he dredged and hit a narcomoeba and a bunch of dredgers and passed. I played ruins, put crucible on top, and pfired his narcomoeba. he dredged. I drew crucible, played it, and cast another intuition pile to force through zuran orb and he scooped. Game two I crop rotated into bog after his first dredge, then a turn or two later secured a lock with loam, wasteland, bog, exploration.
Round two I died to 13 storm on the play game one, sideboarded in 12 cards, and led off game two with mox, land, chalice on zero, chalice on one-->turn two trinisphere and he scooped. Apparently only sideboarding in one decay and one chain of vapor doesn't do it to win through three hate pieces. Game three he keeps a cantrip heavy hand and I draw the nuts-->fetch, manabond, stage, depths, and some random irrelevant cards. he ponders and passes, I drop the manabond and dump my hand, he probes-->preordains and doesn't find a land, I untap and make marit + a wasteland off the top for his volc, and he's just dead.
Round three: "Bug Delver". Sure, it had delvers, but it also didn't have bob, did have liliana and tombstalker, and didn't have stifle. So basically some kind of team America variant. Game one, early pfire lock + he didn't draw DRS + triple wastelands locked it away. Game two, I spend a few turns dropping lands while he durdles with cantrips and obvious countermagic, then turn three he taps out for liliana and I try to resolve intuition with a stage already on the table. He forces the intuition and ups lili. I drop a mox diamond and EE on 3 with 2 mana open, leaving me hellbent. He draws, +1's lili and pitches a stifle, then drops a tombstalker. I rotate into a depths EOT since he tapped out, I untap, pop EE then make marit and he's basically done for.
Round Four: Miracles. Game one is kinda grindy, but when he plays turn one top, I play a turn one EE on two to lock out counterbalance pre-emptively. we spend a few turns dropping lands back and forth, then he screws up and leaves entreat on top, draws it, and decides to miracle it for x = 2 leaving up a tundra and an island. big mistake. I untap, drop a waste and blow his tundra, then drop a crucible and intuition up three mazes, and turn his clock off. He spends his turn cantripping like mad trying to find an answer, and on my turn I loam into ghost quarters and he realizes he can't actually race the impending destruction of his mana base. Game two, I keep the following: mox, mox, waste, crucible, fetch, forest, crop rotation. Needless to say, he opens on island-top, I drop my forest, make two diamonds, drop a crucible, and pass. He tops on his upkeep, plays a fetchland, and passes. I rotate into ghost quarters playing around his represented spell pierce, and proceed to strip him of basics before he can really mount a solid offense, and I'm able to keep him off of 4 lands in play until he scoops it up. I knew in advance that he wasn't packing rest in peace, only a pair of surgicals, a graffdigger's cage, and a relic of progenitus for graveyard hate, so I kept in crucible and it paid off.
Why isn't your first Intuition Loam/Wasteland/Tabernacle? Shouldn't this be pretty much lights out for him?
By getting the crucible it gives him the option to get his draw step back. Tabernacle is really good but not the end all be all. It stops creatures for hanging around but they can still combo you depending on what build they are on.
Congrats on your finish
pretty much this. Intuition for a tabernacle and a loam makes sense in a vacuum, but if he's on the dread return/flashback combo kill plan, then a tabernacle won't lock him out of the game for sure. Tabernacle is generally a bit better against the mana versions of dredge than it is against the manaless ones, since mana versions tend to make more tokens to stick around and beat in while the manaless versions are more prone to combo kills and repeatedly bashing your face in with ichorids and use tokens to chain cabal therapy to disrupt you or to power out more dread returns on shit like grave-troll. Getting crucible at worst means I'm re-playing bog just as quickly as the intuition for tabernacle/loam line, and at best he makes a poor life choice and I get bog sooner (not likely). Regardless, I would never intuition for a wasteland against manaless, it would probably be something like tabernacle-loam-academy ruins/chasm. Early chasm-lock is lights out for ichorid as they run zero interaction with it in any 75 I've ever seen.
as a Further note, I want to point something out strategically that I think many people don't point out to newer lands players and that is sort of an organic-learning process for the most part--Most people when picking up lands for the first time, or playing against it without a ton of experience in the matchup, tend to overvalue life from the loam. Yes, the card is a house, it's a repeatable ancestral recall, etc etc etc. Great. Awesome. We know how good it is. However, this isn't one-land belcher. We don't lose games where we don't have life from the loam by default. Many more experienced players cut one or more loams post-board when they expect either nuclear graveyard hate (RIP or Leyline of the Void) or an opponent to reflex surgical loams on sight, particularly in lists that have already cut down or eliminated tranquil thicket. For years we've played dark confidants as a standard sideboard package to replace the lost card-advantage engine that extirpated loams or nuclear graveyard hate shut down. How many match reports do you hear that go something along the lines of "exploration-->something something wastelands + ports -->make marit lage and win" or "something something crop rotation karakas against S&T emrakul or bojuka bog against reanimator"? Lands has changed a lot from 2008/9 when I started playing it. One of the things that has changed is that this is no-longer a graveyard dependent deck. Sure, we abuse it, nobody will argue that graveyard hate is bad against lands, but we don't lose to graveyard hate by default. The rise of crop rotation and thespian's stage and the fall of Mishra's Factory has continued to reduce the dependence we have on life from the loam, to the point where it is often correct to take natural draw steps over dredging back loam. When I was first learning lands, the correct action, especially in game one, was ALWAYS to keep digging as deep into your library as fast as possible in order to set up that backbreaking endgame of graveyard recursion. Fast forward to today--I use the same mentality for dredging as I do for activating sensei's divining top--Only do it if you know which card you are looking for, otherwise I'll just take what the top of my library gives me, and save my mana for interacting via intuition, punishing fire, engineered explosives, etc.
Why go triple maze? Did you really intend to play all three? I would think 2maze + ruins would seal it here or instead go for the mana with port/quarter and then not worry about countermagic possibly stopping a rotation.
I side out rotation vs miracles by default. It is most easily hit by CB and I want to minimize dead draws g2 when I aggressively chalice for 1. I also don't like the loss of a land if forced. It doesn't bother me as much vs creature decks, but vs control I lose games where I miss land drops and stumble to establish a board and rotation gives them even more interaction. A quick combo kill has never worked for me. Do you keep in all rotations?
Do you sideboard in Chalice against Miracles? Do you like that card and do you find it something you can resolve? I am kind of torn with playing it against Miracles. I side in 8 other cards before the COTV. About crop rotation, I cut a single crop rotation but still keep in 2 Crop Rotations, but that has more to do with my configuration.
First 4 cards I side in actually along with 3grips, 3bobs, and 2revokers (cutting 3intuition, 3crop, glacial, 2maze, 1pfire, tab, orb). Stops cards they use to setup because Miracles without library manipulation is laughable vs lands. CB is nulled with the removal of tops and cantrips, miracle spells are sporadic and not played optimally, removal for dudes is no longer an option (keeping in a sweeper is very uncommon), and is a plus at stoping taxing counters. Also hits snapcaster's relevant targets and etutors averaging to ~%50 of their spells. In general I go with chalice if it hits ~%40 vs any deck. Yes grip gets top, but I like saving it for a brutal RiP or a CB/moon. Hitting their setup cards also makes ld and ports more effective at cutting off larger spells because they will continue to miss land drops.
I resolve it quite often since they go t1 top. This may seem useless, but ee with one counter, revoker, or a grip stops top and future tops (and needles) from ever being effective. If they do counter a chalice early then Academy can pull extra utility.
So you side in a full 12 cards, if you don't mind me asking what do you normally take out then? I ended up having a pretty lengthy conversation with an established Miracles player last night at our LGS tourny about COTV in the matchup. He stated it was nuts, and I wasn't sure. I kind of have a love hate relationship with COTV so I probably don't give it the respect it deserves.
^ Editted* In first sentence.
I'm sure he has experienced much durdle with his deck when he can't play 1cmc cards. 1drops ties the whole deck together.
Thank you.
To be fair the lands/miracle matchup is like a contest to find out who is the king of durdle mountain.
I lol'd so hard.
@thread
Manabond and Crucible of Worlds don't make the cut anymore? Crucible is pretty good paired with Zuran Orb against many decks.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
They both see play. Read this page.
Both lists that placed well in SGC are skipping it. I don't really know why.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I t32 twice this summer with crucible. They are both minute differences really. Is a player preference thing. I see more with multiple stages and depths.
I board in chalice over rotations on the play, and keep in rotations on the draw. I've found rotations is better for turning the corner, while chalice is much better early on. I also have a singleton null rod and winter orb in my board. Like I said, I knew he was on surgicals/graffdiggers/relic, and those are far easier to play around than a rest in peace.
Is Orb here to combo with Ports or Mazes?
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