If sneak is significant in your meta, id also recommend playing ensnaring bridge main as well as a second copy in the board. (bridge was not particularly usefull pre ban as there were so many 1 and two power dudes)
Revokers are great here. you may even cut one Engineered explosives, to move a card into the maindeck.
Fortunatly my meta is not heavy on this.(in Ghent i even played two gilded drakes)
Last edited by Phelix; 03-19-2015 at 09:10 AM.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
Thanks for the replies. Here's what I've had sleeved up recently (before any changes based on your recommendations).
Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
3x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
1x Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard (15)
1x Karakas
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Slaughter Games
1x Smokestack
I've been back and forth on Karakas in the main over the 3rd Stage or 2nd Depths and freeing up a sideboard slot for Ensnaring Bridge.
I've dodged the Omni and Sneak decks recently but I expect them out in force at GP Kyoto, as well as Miracles and Elves. It's fair to expect far less monored Burn here than at tournaments in North America, which is why I've cut Zuran Orb (not bad, just not essential). When I tried a singleton maindeck Bridge in the past, I found myself drawing it off the top with 5-6 lands in hand and no Exploration :D
So something like this?
-2 Sphere of Resistance --> +2 Trinisphere in the board
Karakas back to the main --> -1 Stage or Depths
+1 E.Bridge to the board
Last edited by Sockosensei; 03-23-2015 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Cards missing from list
Id swap the crucible and the smokestack.
Slaughter games is sweet. but odds are against it working out. (drawing it, not having it discarded, finding 4 correct mana in time, etc)
Did you test these choices and how did that work out for you?
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
It's been a couple of weeks since I've been able to attend an event. This week I'll attend two and we'll see how things play out.
I also have reservations about the Slaughter Games for the reasons you mentioned. Still, I'd like to give it a test drive since it has potential application in several matchups.
Allright, so its on a theoretical level. Thats fine, im really interested in hearing how it turns out.
Perhaps slaughter games becomes a better card if you play 3?
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 03-28-2015 at 06:26 PM.
Good catch. I forgot to write the 4 Exploration.
I've only had one match vs Miracles since adding the Slaughter Games. It ensured victory by removing win conditions. As expected, it's extremely powerful in the matchup. It might be overkill as I already transform into Hate.dec for that matchup -- possible over-boarding. At the same time, with Miracles expected in high numbers in any large tournament here, I'm okay with a bit of overkill provided those cards can be applied to other matchups.
For reference I sided:
Out: 2 P. Fire, 1 Chasm, 1 Karakas, 1 Tabernacle, 3 Intuition, 2 Crop Rotation, 1 Gamble, 2 Maze, 1 Bojuka Bog
In: 2 Decay, 2 Grip, 2 Slaughter, 1 Smokestack, 2 Chalice, 3 Sphere, 2 Revoker
Just to clarify, do you mean to maximize the ability to draw it naturally, or to leave Intuition in for certain matchups and have SG as a possible target?
Also, do you think SG is worth boarding in for matchups with True-Name or should I attempt to win through other means?
There have a couple of other things I've been wondering about and would appreciate any input.
(1) The combination of Gamble with Crop Rotation and Intuition has been excellent in game 1 of the matches I've played since putting this list together. The issue I'm having is post-board: Gamble & Crop Rotation excel in their ability to avoid my graveyard, but increasing my one-drops has added tension with Chalice of the Void, a card that has long been my go-to hate piece, previously at 3-4 copies. Should I side out some Gambles and CRs when bringing in Chalice or should I keep them in assuming that if Chalice is at 1 then I'm winning and if it gets countered or destroyed then I have excellent one-drops at the ready?
(2) Pyroclasm is a beating vs. a huge portion of the meta. Is it worth including? If so, where are the slots?
I recently came across this metagame data based on SCG results since the Treasure Cruise banning. (I'm not in that exact meta but it's the best data I have. For discussion purposes assume my meta has more Miracles and Omni and less mono-red Burn.) I ran the numbers and Pyroclasm kills more than 2/3 of the creatures in about 55% of that meta. While we have positive matchups against most of the fair creature decks, sometimes I get out-maneuvered because I can't kill DRS, or because Pyromancer is active with an army and I can't stabilize the board in time. I know our usual critter control methods; I'm considering this as a supplement to make our defensive position more stable and reduce pressure to allow time to take control. I've never seen Pyroclasm discussed and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.
I had it for gp dc and could never cast it vs d&t since they kept me off red mana. I eventually replaced it and ee#3 with revokers though. It's the most efficient sweeper we can use to catch up on the board after you drop chalice in the early turns. After pyroclasm hits you can manage the board much easier with a single pfire. My plan was to hate on elves back then, but it still applies to delver/pyromancer decks.
Extracting a TNN seems horrible since EE doesn't care about a 3 power for 3. You win by just hitting for 20.
SGames is really appealing in the Show and tell matches, especially Omnitell.
I top-4ed a GPT trial for Kyoto yesterday with RUG Lands. Approximately 25-30 players.
At a recent event at the local shop, the room was 75% Delver and all creature-based decks except for mine. These are primarily players who’re attending the GP next month. This combined with the SCG meta data from my previous post made me decide to try Pyroclasm in the side for added insurance in the creature matchups, instead of running Slaughter Games. Perhaps the OmniTell takeover I’ve been hearing about here is just watercooler hype anyway.
Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
2x Gamble
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Smokestack
Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
1x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pyroclasm
1x Smokestack
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Rd. 1 Esper Stoneblade: 1-0
A 45-min game in which I made tokens repeatedly and frequently found myself at 60 life. Game 2 ended in turns soon after starting.
1-0 in rounds.
Rd. 2 OmniTell: 2-1
G1: I never had a chance, even with 3x Port.
G2: Trinisphere FTW.
G3: The opponent had me dead but seemed to misunderstand Trinisphere, despite having lost to it the previous game. He probed twice and seeing it in my hand still Show & Telled. I had the combo on the board and immediately made a 20/20 and won. Had he played his turn differently, he would have had the mana to win through the Trinisphere. A true gift.
OUT: -3 Wasteland, -2 Maze, -2 P. Fire, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chasm, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 EE
IN: 2 K. Grip, 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice, 1 Sphere, 1 E. Bridge, 1 Smokestack, 2 Revoker
2-0 in rounds.
Rd 3 High Tide: 2-0
G1: Ports could only hold out so long. He was two Time Spirals deep into his combo turn with double Candelabra and I was considering scooping to save time when he Ponder-ed and mixed the cards with his hands like a Brainstorm. Immediate game loss. Based on what he said, he seemed like he might fizzle, and I was looking to resolve my maindeck Smokestack on the next turn. Still, this was a tremendous gift in an abysmal matchup.
G2: The Magic Gods punished him with a mana-light hand and my Ports and Smokestacks snuffed out the candle.
OUT: -3 Wasteland, -3 Maze, -2 P. Fire, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chasm, -1 can’t remember
IN: 2 K. Grip, 1 A. Decay, 2 Revoker, 2 Trinisphere, 1 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Chalice, 1 Smokestack
3-0 in rounds.
Rd. 4 OmniTell: 0-2
G1: was never in question. He won with little opposition from me.
G2: I played T1 Revoker and began the beatdown. Trinisphere backup nearly got there, but he found Hurkyl’s Recall and Wipe Away to win at 4 life.
Sided: Same or similar to round 2.
3-1 in rounds.
Rd. 5 UGx Delver: ID into top 8.
We played one of the games for fun and I had the nuts: Exploration, Loam-Wastelock, Tabernacle, and the natural combo.
3-1-1 in rounds.
Quarter-finals Punishing Jund: 2-0
G1: We know what each other are on and mull to hands appropriate for the matchup. His T1 DRS meets Mox, Land, Punishing Fire. His turn two DRS meets , Land, Crop Rotation for Grove, Punishing Fire. He scooped once I had Waste-lock and Maze protection.
G2: Tabernacle kept him busy while I Crop Rotated into a 20/20.
OUT: 3 Intuition, 1 Glacial Chasm, 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka Bog ← perhaps this should’ve stayed in?
IN: 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Smokestack, 1 Ensnaring Bridge
Semi-finals Miracles: 0-1
Again, we know what each other are on and both mull.
G1: He has T1 Top into T2 Counterbalance on the play, but I resolve Crucible and eventually Intuition. The Intuition pile is where I think I went wrong: I already had Wasteland active, so I fetched Ghost Quarter, Tolaria West, and Loam, stupidly assuming I’d resolve a two-mana spell at some point. Loam, even if countered, would get me three cards deep each turn for Crucible targets. Instead, I think I should have tutored up Academy Ruins, EE, and maybe Ghost Quarter, since Academy Ruins eliminates Jace’s ultimate as a win condition in game 1, and EE-lock is the true beating in the matchup. He ran 8 basics instead of the usual 6 that I see and that extra bit of resilience to Ghost Quarter allowed him to resolve Jace and eventually reach his ultimate. Ports were slow in showing up, and I never found Academy Ruins or even a Thespian’s Stage in my top 40 cards. I lost by milling out to Jace after manually defrosting Marit Lage for one final futile swing attempt. G1 took 40+ mins and G2 ended in turns soon after beginning.
Looking back, I can find at least 5-6 spots where playing differently could have won the match, especially better using the Ghost Quarter shuffles to disrupt his Counter-Top lock to resolve Loam→Tolaria West→Academy for safety. Frankly, my opponent played extremely well in a tough position, essentially trying to give me opportunities to punt, which I did. I certainly overvalued the Crucible-GQ lock.
It’s time to for me to review my play vs. Miracles in general.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OmniTell was approximately 20-25% of the room. Several players who didn’t play it in the event were goldfishing it beforehand and in between rounds. Friends of mine at a separate GPT in another city also mentioned seeing a lot of it. I would certainly have preferred the Slaughter Games in the sideboard on this particular day. Looking forward, I need to reassess my sideboard with this matchup in mind.
Thanks to all of you who have given me suggestions in recent days, both in the thread and through PM.
Miracles
I would consider two piles: stage, depths, and loam or ee, academy, and loam/fetch/ee#2. Both help you hit land drops every turn and is where miracles starts to fall behind (flipping some ports is a bonus).
The first pile puts him on having instant speed removal every other turn (waste neutralizes opposing Karakas if present). The turn you play Stage you dredge and cast loam to flip over the deck to expand your options in future turns. The following turn you play depths and activate at his eot. Attack. A terminus will eventually flip the Top to remove Marit and that is when you can strike with spells through counterbalance.
The second pile may shut down all win cons, but is dicey because he has an active top to stop ee@2&3 (you resolved crucible and Intuition so cmc3 may work or more CMC if you have the mana). I suggest a fetch instead of loam if you don't have any lands in hand. Falling behind on land drops just makes this match that much more difficult. EE lock will tie up your mana and you need to be making progress on the board if he repeatedly counters EE so that future EEs can be charged further. I suggest ee#2 if you have a fetch in hand or multiple lands in in hand because they can Clique away an ee in the draw step.
Conceding is also a great option here to win the next games or force the draw. This could help you in more matches if can assume that a game will regularly take 20-25min.
Last edited by snorlaxcom; 03-31-2015 at 12:22 PM.
Congrats with the result!
I have considered Slaughtergames some times (in a RGb shell), but never tested the card mainly because of sphere of resistance (RB2 is hard, but with spheres it gets even harder). Did you ever succesfully played the card in the past versus combo? Would love to hear how this turned out.
That's extremely well explained, thank you. I wish I had gone with the first pile you described to pressure and force him to spend his resources digging for answers turn after turn.
As far as scooping earlier, I seriously considered it. However I thought I might still have the game: I suspected he was out of or nearly out of white sources, or that I would be able to Waste/Quarter the final source before making the token. He ended up fetching what was likely his final white source. It was tough to know the exact numbers since I can't recall facing a Miracles build with a basic mountain and 8 basics in total.
Thanks! I was rather lucky that my Rd 2 and Rd 3 opponents made the mistakes they did, but I won't complain :D
I don't have enough data on Slaughter Games to make any firm judgment.
I had it in the deck for a week or so, and in that time I only got to cast it in one matchup (Miracles), where it was awesome. Whether it's any good in the combo matchups is something I'd like to determine. Will your hate pieces let you live long enough to cast it? All of my games vs Omni went 5+ turns thanks to Ports and Trinisphere. Slaughter Games on top of that would have been killer.
What do people think of Raven's Crime or other discard spells for the 2-3 final SB slots, in addition to hate artifacts? I found vs Omni and High Tide I reached the 3-4 mana range and had to decide between casting a hate piece instead of Porting, and possibly having it countered and then losing on their turn. Knowing that Omni has to win through Show and Tell, I had a strong incentive to hold Trinisphere back. At the same time, resolving it would have seriously limited their hand sculpting. I know we want our hate to be more lasting than a one-for-one trade, but something like a Duress or Thoughtseize on turns 1-3 would allow a peek, remove a combo or protection spell, and hopefully clear a path to resolve a hate artifact. Too much conflict with Chalice?
Hey all, I finally picked up a tabernacle and trying to get into lands. I started with RG combo lands but after playing it for a month or so I am now a bit fed up with a bunch of dead draws and would like to play something a little more robust and controlling. I have noticed on this thread most people are using crop rotation to find the silver bullet lands. However, I am looking to try out the enlightened tutor build and the addition of scroll rack (scroll rack idea came from Andrew Bowman on the WUBRG.xyz twitch stream). My only hesitation on enlightened tutor is the colour sensitivity and speed. I took a decklist by Felix Munch I found on mtgtop8 and modified it to fit in the tutors and swap out crop rotations.
Maindeck: 61
Lands: 35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Not Lands: 26
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Worm Harvest
4 Life from the Loam
Sideboard: 15
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
Changes to the maindeck:
-3 crop rotations, -1 EE, -1 sylvan library
+2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 scroll rack, +1 zuran orb, +1 tranquil thicket
Changes to SB:
-1 containment priest, -1 thrun,
+1 EE, +1 krosan grip
Comments:
I think both the zuran orb and tranquil thicket are great utilities to have. The scroll rack is essentially replacing the sylvan library. Does anyone want to make an argument for sylvan? The logic I see is that scroll rack is only valuable with cards in your hand which does not compliment the ensnaring bridge. I like that scroll rack can be recurred with academy runes as well just in case it does get milled. Took out the second EE as you now have extra tutors for it. Added one to the SB as you typically need a second one when trying to deal with RIP.
Concerns:
Enlightened tutor can be a little rough as it does not give quick access to bojuka bog or karakas. Perhaps adding another tolaria west to find the lands. I suppose containment priest is a good answer to Sneak&Show considering we are splashing white. I would also consider a tormods crypt which can be tutored for by tolaria west and enlightened tutor. However, enlightened tutor also helps you find ensnaring bridge faster.
Punishing fire is great and very hard to jam in extras especially when trying to splash the fifth colour.
Creeping tar pit seems good but hard to find space, especially in a 5 colour deck.
Alternative SB:
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Containment Priest
Changes to previous SB:
-1 Ethersworn Canonist, -1 krosan grip
+1 containment priest, +1 tormods crypt.
I plan on playing a control lands shell at my local legacy games this week on Wednesday and Thursday. If you have any suggestions before then let me know. I will report back with deck list, results, meta analysis. Results may be unreliable as I am pretty new to playing lands.
/c
This is Andrew. I'm glad you liked the idea! It actually comes from Tom McLeod so he gets the credit. Top had also been run within E tutor versions.
You might also consider something like Oblivion Stone as a board wipe should your meta require it.
This may be the wrong place for this post, and if so, i am sorry and am OK having it moved somewhere else.
I am interested in making a Lands Infect deck built around the inkmoth nexus, and wanted to know if anyone has tried this. Getting it out of the way, Im sure people are thinking, "why not just play U/G infect" or "why not just play lands?"
I guess the answer is that while I like U/G infect, it definitely has its drawbacks as a deck, and I like the range of control lands has. That said, the infect win con is cool, i like the man lands, and the potential to pump the blinkmoths with blinkmoth nexus, pendelhaven, or even cathedral of war or centaurs garden, I havent seen. This could be established using the Life from the Loam engine that lands uses, and it could be protected via Tabernacle, wasteland, ports, karakas, etc.
So this is what im tinkering with, and wondering if it tickles anyone enough to want to discuss it.
I swear by worm harvest. Occasionally tar pit.
Im that guy Cchalc that you sniped the list from ;) tutors to me give me the concern of speed, particuarly when you topdeck them, since you will be blocking you own dredges, and they are usually not that good vs miracles (since they counter it)
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
Thank you!
I think that EE trick is what Snorlaxcom was getting at when he said "you resolved crucible and Intuition so cmc3 may work or more CMC if you have the mana". cmc3 does seem to be the soft spot in most Miracles lists, especially if they're running Snapcaster.
I miss running Worm Harvest. I know you usually pair it with Smokestack, but out of curiosity, if you could only fit one, which would you choose? (or neither...) Have you made any changes to your list since Germany?Originally Posted by Phelix
I feel reasonably prepared for most matchups, but Omni is still getting to me. Auto-losing game 1 and then having to win both G2 and G3 is a tough spot to be in. I've been looking for a card to include in the main that would give me some chance in G1. Ensnaring Bridge might buy a turn but I still need to combo and remove the Bridge before dying. That seems like a tall order. Another card I've considered as a singleton Gamble target is The Abyss. Emrakul will die on the extra turn's upkeep and will not have an attack or annihilator. Moreover, Marit Lage can completely ignore the Abyss and just swing for the win. If I went this route, The Abyss would replace Smokestack in my list. Is this worth doing? Is there a better singleton Gamble target for the main? Or, should I ignore G1 completely?
For reference, I'm running
Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x FLEX (currently Smokestack)
Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
1x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x FLEX (Slaughter Games, Pyroclasm, E. Bridge, Cursed Totem, etc.)
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