I agree that it's pretty vague, when I wrote it I meant for it to convey that the time benefit is just an added benefit to the other benefits that come with playing slowly and carefully, not the only reason to do so which is kind of what it sounds like.Originally Posted by dafrk3in
I don't know if I would advocate a dragging out game 1 policy, since games 2 and 3 are obviously harder post-board and you may require more time for game 3. Game 1 Deathrite Shaman is pretty much the only card we care about game 1 and once he's dealt with winning should be pretty trivial; there's no need to pointlessly drag the game out when you can just send Momma Lage their way.
If you were to drag out game 1 against Jund to some 35 minutes PFiring them to death instead of killing them with Marit Lage, and in game 2 they nut draw you with something like t1 DRS, t2 Goyf, t3 Lili, t4 BBE while Extracting and Wasting relevant targets it's very easy for you to just lose in 10 minutes; then you're in a terrible position of having to win game 3 in the 5 or so minutes that remain. Basically I think it's more common for other decks to win quickly against Lands than it is the other way around, so you should end game 1 quickly to give yourself more time/room in case you punt or they draw triple Surgical against you game 2.
Re: clock there's obviously a big difference between playing methodically and optimally and simply burning clock time. I think you can probably just reword that part of the primer and instead of talking about "time value" just talk about playing optimally. Mention that they could have an instant they'd be more willing to play (say PFire in Jund) if you port 2 of their lands during upkeep instead of porting 1 land on upkeep and another on their draw.
Time management is a part of competitive paper magic as in MTGO. Doing things for time value that also prevent misunderstandings is a perfectly valid way to play the game. Your opponent always has the option of conceding a game one that's going bad for them in the interest of preserving their own chances of winning the match. I'll point you to an open last year where Huey Jensen won a game 1 something like 250 life to like 16, with an Elspeth on the field, opting not to use its +1, instead sphinx'ing his entire deck every turn to gain life, to avoid a very poor game 2 matchup. He got that match because his opponent was too dumb to concede until the clock had run too far for him to have a chance at picking up games 2 and three. Plenty of pro's have advocated boarding out win-cons in a control mirror after a long game 2 if they win, in the interest of making sure they don't lose a quick game 2 AND that they have a much better defensive position to draw the second game out even from a poor start. Stalling the game to prevent your opponent from winning (1 minute on the clock, opponent slams a JTMS, you have no outs other than his not ulting it) and playing deliberately are different things. Is it stalling if a control player in standard scry's his only win con, an aetherling, to the bottom of his library? How can you enforce that? Time management has been a part of competitive magic since they introduced the round timer to tournaments.
Took lands to SCG Indy this weekend, it was my 3rd tournament playing the deck, and the first that wasn't a 4-rounder: ended up 6-2-1, finishing 36th. I made a few boneheaded mistakes throughout the day, but it was a good learning opportunity. My list:
4 Exploration
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
3 Intuition
2 Crop Rotation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
3 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
2 Tolaria West
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
SB
4 Dark Confidant
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
My rounds went something like this (super abridged version):
Round 1 vs. G/W Humans (LOSS)
G1 he accelerated out double Hero of Bladehold and quickly crushed me. At one point G2 his board consisted of 2x Supression Field, 2x Rest in Peace, and 3x Noble Hierarch. He cast Armageddon :(, then Pridemages my Mox Diamond and casts Thalia. This wasn't even close.
Round 2 vs. BUG Delver (WIN)
I make a huge error Mazing his Delver instead of his Scavenging Ooze giving him a blocker for my Marit Lage, forcing a g3 after he draws a Liliana. I have the nuts and combo him T2 game three, but resolve to not make any more grievous errors.
Round 3 vs. UR Delver (WIN)
Game 1 he has triple Price of Progress, but I weather the storm the next two with Zuran Orb.
Round 4 vs. UR Delver (LOSS)
He takes games 2 and 3 with a flurry of burn after I combo him game 1, countering Zuran Orb and untapping to triple Bolt me g3.
Round 5 vs. Dredge (WIN)
As he is shuffling he flips up a Gemstone Mine. I keep a slow hand with access to Crop Rotation and Bog him out of the game. G2 goes the same way after a bit of grinding on both sides.
Round 6 vs. Elves (WIN)
3 long, drawn-out games. G3 I am grinding him down and have a Chalice on 1, he draws Natural Order, but apparently sided out Progenitus! He gets Craterhoof and hits me down to one after I Maze the behemoth, then I EE/P-fire the rest of his team away and slowly lock him out entirely.
Round 7 vs. Dark Maverick (DRAW)
Game 1 I get to a point where he has double Deathrite and a Liliana on 6 with one card in hand. He Ultimates, and I make Marit Lage in response. He splits Exploration, Chasm (on 3 counters) and Marit vs everything else. I go for it, and he has neither Liliana nor Swords to punish me. My major misplay here was not scooping early enough game 2 when he had it locked up. On turn 5 of turns, he has 1 Forest, a Thalia, and a Revoker at 16 life, I have Double Maze, the combo, and Grove/Pfire. Unfortunately I don't get another turn, and he doesn't want to concede. I should have scooped earlier, and would have easily won the match.
Round 8 vs. UW Control (WIN)
He was on a homebrew, as he put it:"U/W Stuff that was in my binder last night." I see only normal fare: FOWs, Counterspells, Brainstorms, and Tops. After the match he shows such spice as Prognostic Sphinx, Future Sight, and Jace Beleren. Both games went fairly long, but I assemble the combo with Port Protection each time.
Round 9 vs UWR Miracles (WIN)
This final round was a long, drawn-out grindfest. Game 1 he assembles turn 2 Countertop, and after a bit of slogging it out I scoop to his full grip to ensure time for 2 more games. Game 2 I use a couple ports to get a Marit Lage into play. Game 3 accounts for most of the time in the round, and Dark Confidant really pulls his weight against a RiP and Counterbalance. I have triple Port for most of the game, and use it to shut down his Venser/Karakas shenanigans. As we go to time I beat him down with 2 Bobs and a Revoker, and have Fire/Grove backup (having EEd the RiP after he Vensered my Bob).
All in all I had a blast and learned a lot, mainly from my own mistakes. I played in the Legacy Challenge Saturday night and beat Jund + Dredge before falling to High Tide and a UW deck that mained 4 Back to Basics- two rather rough matchups. I'm considering cutting the Crucible for a Manabond, and would also potentially like some number of Abrupt Decays in the board. Any input on the list or general advice is welcome.
Nice report!
I like the list, as it's the same as mine except:
- Bojuka Bog
+ Savannah
What did you think of your sideboard? Any cards that seemed useless during the day? Cards you wish you had sideboarded?
very nice result.
how do you feel about the chalice vs spheres? also crop rotation vs chalice seems annoying, do you board out rotations or just take that minor risk? My list is very close to identical, well chosen :)
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
I used everything except the Spheres, but I like having a lot for the combo matchups. I would possibly like another Ensnaring Bridge for SnS/Elves, and as mentioned earlier wouldn't mind Abrupt Decays.
I do like to have a fighting chance against Storm decks, so I devoted a large portion of my board to them. I like to take the risk as Chalice is generally very powerful in the matchups where you bring it in, but when you don't have it a quick combo is often your next best alternative. I did board them in against elves, which I am not 100% sure is correct. In that match a Rotation did indeed rot in my hand, but overall if I have a Chalice in play I generally have more time to sculpt.
Does anyone have an example of a deck that runs Enlightened Tutors that is fairly consistent and has decent results? Since I feel Crop Rotation is pretty lack luster (especially because I find myself transmuting for most of my lands anyways) I want to address an issue I find myself having. Not having Exploration / Manabond in play.
Here is a list I can come up with that runs Enlightened Tutors but just want other peoples opinions:
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond
2 Enlightened Tutors
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadon Port
1 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Dark Confidant
1 Riftstone portal (way too many blood moon effects in my meta)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Going 5 color is ballsy and you need a really good reason to do it. You still have bob in the side, but that's a nombo if you can't fit in a bayou since you want him t2 the latest. Are white hatebears needed in your meta? Thalia usually gets the bob slot if so. Aside from that it looks ok. Only other criticism I have is I'd rather not have a manabond. I don't like having conditional fastbonds especially t1, but you have enough cycle lands to take advantage of it. Just lookout for an AD because it can blow it before trigger goes on the stack, thus wasting your whole turn and the mana invested into loaming/cycling.
I'm fine trimming which ever colors I need to if white is going to make getting Exploration / digging for non-cmc = 0 artifacts easier. My meta has a bunch of creature decks in it so thalia isn't that great. My meta has: Sneak and Show, Elves, DnT, 12post (Jeremiah Rudolph), random scrub creature decks, shardless, and not a lot of combo (ANT/TES). There are a few delver decks for larger tournaments, but nothing in my local meta.
I also have to admit that I don't know when to side in bob's. I understand they are great for when I expect to face GY hate, but I just naturally assume every game 2&3 (90% of the time) I am going to face GY hate...so would I side them in every G2 / G3???
It could just be that I am not piloting the deck correctly and that the issue I find with not having Exploration / Manabond is because I am keeping hands I shouldn't keep or dredging when I should draw instead?
if i were playing E tutor today, id be playing sylvan library in the main.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
There's a really good primer on Enlightened Tutor lands, I think the primer links to it. Check the first page. As far as Bob's, The game plan is generally to board them in every g2/g3 if you're on that plan. Your opponents cut removal for graveyard hate and die to being buried in CA from BoB. Alternatively, if they leave in removal and bring in graveyard hate, they're generally slowing down their overall plan and so even if bob doesn't generate any CA, they've slowed down enough you can just grind them out normally. The reason to play E-tutor lands over Bobs is to find bullets for the combo MU's, like sneak and show.
against stuff like jund, UR delver, burn, elves, blecher i dont bring in confidants.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
^This. Lots of decks also don't have a lot to board in. Some removal stays g2/3 if it at least overlaps to handle Marit/tarpit or an art/ench. Bob can feed into this and is not always snap boarded in.
I mean, obviously. But if you're on the Bob plan, it's usually "justify why you don't bring it in g2/g3" versus "why should I bring it in?"
Hey guys, the RGx Lands deck belongs to this thread or should I seek information about that at some other place?
The old closed 43 Lands thread has some info about the RG list. This thread is supposedly only for the RUGx Control shell. Eventually someone may get around to writing a primer for the RG Combo list though.
Personally I don't think there's much to say :p Maybe some Gamble and dredge vs. draw spreadsheet percentages that may be useful.
You can discuss decklists, matchups to be discussed, tournamentreports, etc, just like any other deck. Kinda sucks its not possible anymore, and therefore shouldn't it be better to keep posting here, until an RG thread is written?
I am a good guy, I made you a thread in developmental -> http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...RG-Combo-Lands
Please stop talking about the RG combo version here, the primer is exclusively about the RUG version with Intuition.
It's a nonsense imho to split the discussion (and why the new thread in developmental? the RG version got more top8 than the RUG version these days).
This thread should be for all versions of Lands, expecially now that the RG version is, numbers in hand, the most succefully and played one (according to TCDecks data).
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