Why isn't there more Storm combo in the US?

[nevilshute]

Why, why, why doesn't more people play Storm in the US?

Once in a blue moon I see a storm deck present in a top-8 or top-16 on the SCG-Open circuit, but that's about it. To me, it seems that storm is criminally underplayed at these SCG-events. It doesn't have a truly miserable matchup among the tier 1 decks unlike other mainstays (Elves gets steamrolled by Miracles, Death and Taxes gets steamrolled by Elves etc), is at worst about even against most of the field and even has (mostly) free wins against some of the other tier 1 decks (Elves).

Here in Europe there is a lot of storm compared to what my impression is of the US. The Elves deck that just won the SCGIndy open didn't even bother running a Ruric Thar among its 75 (or 76 rather). That would never cut it where I play.

I really struggle to understand this. Being one of the cheaper decks to assemble (only 4 duals, 8 fetches and 4 LEDs) budgetary reasons can't be it. Is it really a playstyle-preference thing? If so, I struggle to understand what would explain this.

Anyway, I know it frequently gets recited how Europe is more "combo-centric" than the US and I guess my impressions back this up, I just really do not understand why.

[Acclimation]

It's mostly a playstyle preference I think. A lot of the people I've met in the Midwest that are SCG Grinders prefer playing Midrange/Control decks, since they give them "more control over the outcome of the game" and less "losses because I didn't draw what I needed"; those being things that people have said to me.

Even then, the people who do want to play combo stick to either Elves or Show and Tell decks, and don't want to take the time to master storm combo decks; I think people feel that these decks are easily stopped.

So, to sum it up, people prefer to play boring decks because it gives them the illusion of choice, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to live life on the edge with a combo deck like Storm.

[nevilshute]

It's mostly a playstyle preference I think. A lot of the people I've met in the Midwest that are SCG Grinders prefer playing Midrange/Control decks, since they give them "more control over the outcome of the game" and less "losses because I didn't draw what I needed"; those being things that people have said to me.

Even then, the people who do want to play combo stick to either Elves or Show and Tell decks, and don't want to take the time to master storm combo decks; I think people feel that these decks are easily stopped.

So, to sum it up, people prefer to play boring decks because it gives them the illusion of choice, and they don't have the testicular fortitude to live life on the edge with a combo deck like Storm.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation. Though I'm fucked if I know why Europeans would be more risk willing than Americans

[GoblinZ]

I do think there are less good storm players in America than in Europe in general, I often see bad storm players on SCG stream, although I don't deny there are a few great storm players like Bryant Cook or Ari Lax,etc in America.

[Koby]

There is a lot more RUG Delver in the US than in Europe. RUG Delver is usually billed as the "aspiring Pro's top choice" because it give a great illusion of control, plus it's a delver deck so it can autopilot anyone with half a brain into Top 8. All that means is that it's a popular choice and has easy tools to fight most Storm decks between 8 free counters and an additional 7-8 one mana counters.

Most storm pilots cannot handle this kind of disruption without going into catatonic shock on a regular basis. Thus they put it down in favor of something more equitable against the bevy of Delver decks, which tend to also be blue based tempo strategies.

[nevilshute]

There is a lot more RUG Delver in the US than in Europe. RUG Delver is usually billed as the "aspiring Pro's top choice" because it give a great illusion of control, plus it's a delver deck so it can autopilot anyone with half a brain into Top 8. All that means is that it's a popular choice and has easy tools to fight most Storm decks between 8 free counters and an additional 7-8 one mana counters.

Most storm pilots cannot handle this kind of disruption without going into catatonic shock on a regular basis. Thus they put it down in favor of something more equitable against the bevy of Delver decks, which tend to also be blue based tempo strategies.

Interesting analysis. It's funny though, most committed storm pilots I've run into (and I can include myself to this group) will happily play against Delver decks any time. Fighting on only one axis (the stack) makes it quite beatable. Not trying to come off as saying that storm is a heavy favorite in the hands of the "right pilot", but at the same time when you are new to playing storm then them having force, daze, pierce and fluster/snare (post board) can feel unbeatable. In truth it is probably 50/50. The BUG variant can be a more challenging proposition due to discard.

[Higgs]

I think the primary reason is the European metagame is more diverse and therefore more people prefer to play with powerful, proactive decks (combo in general) as opposed to trying to play goodstuff aggro-control decks which try to metagame heavily and jam the best answers against a known metagame. With any control or aggro-control deck I think you are trying to constantly finetune your deck against a shifting target and in the American meta this is a more achievable goal because your target shifts less (less diversity). In an open meta if you put all that effort into learning your deck really well, you can take the same 75 which turn 2s your opponent consistently, you have better chances of doing well.

[Zombie]

There is a lot more RUG Delver in the US than in Europe. RUG Delver is usually billed as the "aspiring Pro's top choice" because it give a great illusion of control, plus it's a delver deck so it can autopilot anyone with half a brain into Top 8. All that means is that it's a popular choice and has easy tools to fight most Storm decks between 8 free counters and an additional 7-8 one mana counters.

Most storm pilots cannot handle this kind of disruption without going into catatonic shock on a regular basis. Thus they put it down in favor of something more equitable against the bevy of Delver decks, which tend to also be blue based tempo strategies.

Storm vs. RUG is really entertaining. Why do Americans hate entertainment ;_;

Storm --- even has (mostly) free wins against some of the other tier 1 decks (Elves).

Storm vs. Elves is not free. Not nowadays. It's certainly in Storm's favour, but not horribly. You want to beat Elves free, you're talking Reanimator and Miracles really.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I think it also has something to do with commitment. Take someone like BBD, a good player who plays Legacy a lot during SCG Opens. He dabbled with Storm for a while but stopped playing the deck, to paraphrase his words, because he felt Storm forced him to always play perfectly or lose (a reasonably true observation, though you do get autopilot hands/matchups) - meaning he put more pressure on himself not to mess up than by playing something with similar expected value on deck alone. Storm is a great deck if you master the intricacies (though brainfarts can still be hard to avoid) but especially punishing during the learning process/if you only pick it up from time to time because so many small decision can cost you the whole game (something that's especially true against Delver Tempo decks, reinforcing Koby's point from above). So to become good with Storm, you need to commit and invest the time to focus on it alone, even if you're good at the game already. That's something many players aren't ready to do when they're mainly playing the Legacy Opens because they're already present because of Saturday's Standard event and, in all honesty, isn't a great allocation of playtest resources for them, at least in the medium to short term. In Europe, or at least that's my experience, Legacy players often are dedicated "format specialists" who are significantly more likely to invest the time to really understand Storm.

[nevilshute]

Storm vs. RUG is really entertaining. Why do Americans hate entertainment ;_;




Storm vs. Elves is not free. Not nowadays. It's certainly in Storm's favour, but not horribly. You want to beat Elves free, you're talking Reanimator and Miracles really.

The parathesis containing the word "mostly" was meant to bring nuance to the "free win" part, but it might have come off too confidently I know that it is less of a free win compared to both miracles and reanimator, heck I lost to my friend playing Elves the other night at our LGS after telling him how good of a matchup I thought it was. That being said I always feel very comfortable when playing storm against elves. Of the tier 1 decks it feels like the best matchup by some distance. Off the top of my head I think I can boast a 65-70 % win ratio at competative level.

[Zombie]

The parathesis containing the word "mostly" was meant to bring nuance to the "free win" part, but it might have come off too confidently I know that it is less of a free win compared to both miracles and reanimator, heck I lost to my friend playing Elves the other night at our LGS after telling him how good of a matchup I thought it was. That being said I always feel very comfortable when playing storm against elves. Of the tier 1 decks it feels like the best matchup by some distance. Off the top of my head I think I can boast a 65-70 % win ratio at competative level.

Probably because the matchup is in Storm's favour, especially Game 1. Favourable matchups tend to leave you with that confident feeling ^^
70% sounds a bit too heavy to me, but meh.

[Julian23]

Probably because the matchup is in Storm's favour, especially Game 1. Favourable matchups tend to leave you with that confident feeling ^^
70% sounds a bit too heavy to me, but meh.

70% for Game1 sounds reasonable. Postboard it of course heavily depends on what tools both players have available. With the sideboard I ran in the past, postboard games felt very 50/50, even potentially slightly favored for Elves when on the play. For now I have moved away from that configuration though for now.

Sorry, what were we talking about int he first place? Oh yeah, the presence of Storm. Pretty much that thing about how it feels that there are %-wise more dedicated deck specialists in Europe and how playing Storm "casually" doesn't really feel very rewarding, even if you win.

[btm10]

I can certainly agree that there seem to be few dedicated Legacy/Vintage-only in the US, at least in the Midwest. I'm originally from the Northeast, where there was a much better Vintage-only scene (Legacy had just been separated when I left, so it hadn't really developed yet. I have no idea what it's like there now). I say this because it might mean that there are also fewer (or a smaller proportion of) people who are predisposed to like/appreciate Storm here.

I also think there's an element of combo-shaming in a lot of local metas where people who bring ANT or TES week-in week-out are stigmatized for it. I'd play ANT in my local if there weren't 4 or 5 dedicated BUG Delver players, butI don't think I can play flawlessly in that matchup since I haven't played Storm combo as my primary deck in years (the last time was when I could run 4 LED in Long.dec).

I think the greater puzzle is why people in the US continue to play so much Elves and Sneak and Show relative to Storm, which is just objectively more powerful and probably more resilient than either.

[nevilshute]

Sure, it's funny though. Having played storm with some regularity for about a year and half (and intensely during the six months leading up the recent BoM) I felt that I pretty quickly reached something of a plateau with the deck. Maybe after about two months. It was here that I really started to minimize play mistakes and got the hang of more and more lines of play. After that though the progress is slow and harder to track at least from your own point of view.

However, whenever I've since then tried to play something like Death and Taxes or even tempo strategies for any period of time I've always felt that those types of decks actually contained, if not more, then at least as many demanding play skills as Storm. To me, personally, I find it... not easier, but perhaps less taxing to play storm. Maybe it means I'm not maximizing the deck's potential I don't know. But it usually feels like my plan is more linear and clear to me. I know what I need to do and it will usually demand a lot of mental energy during one or two big turns during each game (notwithstanding the games where you just free roll). With something like D&T it feels like every freaking turn has two or more incredibly important decisions. Every goddamn turn*. Turn after turn, game after game, round after round. It gives me a head ache just thinking about it The mistakes you make - like for instance not porting to flash in mindcensor or vice versa - are more subtle than the "oh, I guess I miscounted" Ad Nauseam flop, but feels like they will equate to much the same during the course of a tournament. It's the same - if slightly less so - with tempo decks. Each turn has so much subtle intricacy and it's much harder to know if you were right in the decision you made on turns one and two.

Maybe people are just happy to play these decks suboptimally because the decks never force them to face that. Unlike storm where you'll have egg all over your face after expending all your resources trying to infernal tutor without being hellbent. Instead they play a solid deck that puts up results all the time but that, for some mystical reason, they can never seem to do better than x-2 with.


*I'm not saying that only the turn you win with storm matters. Obviously there are decisions to be made in every turn leading up that and you can get mileage out of your experience in terms of maximizing cantrips and discard.

[Megadeus]

It's a tough deck. I played TES for a few months to mixed results. Basically when I actually thought out my lines I would win, but on nights when I was unfocused I'd lose. Go figure. I quit mostly because grinding locals with storm is miserable for me and my opponents. I think though that the mass amount of delver in the US, like someone said has something to do with it. The main "grinders" who play more than a handful of large legacy events per year just aren't storm players.

[Bryant Cook]

I think the level of storm pilots is really based on your location in the US. In the northeast (Where I live), there's actually a decent amount of competent storm players. But I too have noticed the lack of numbers in the mid-west, there used to be some in the Los Angeles/Vegas area but they've seemed to dry up.

[Zombie]

It's a tough deck. I played TES for a few months to mixed results. Basically when I actually thought out my lines I would win, but on nights when I was unfocused I'd lose. Go figure. I quit mostly because grinding locals with storm is miserable for me and my opponents. I think though that the mass amount of delver in the US, like someone said has something to do with it. The main "grinders" who play more than a handful of large legacy events per year just aren't storm players.

Pretty much why I stopped playing TES. So many hands scream "Turn 1 Goblins, go." Doesn't feel much like playing Magic.

[mini1337s]

Pretty sure that the NA combo preference is Sneak and Show. Similar, uninteractive, powerful game, but much less taxing on the player. Not to say that Sneak and Show doesn't require skill, but it's a lot easier to jam 10 rounds of SnT into Emrakul than it is to combo off with storm.

[Megadeus]

Also, being able to derp into a 2 card combo is much more simple than actually having to sequence out your spells. Cast Show and Tell. Put in Griselbrand. If my opponent does nothing, battle for 7. If he tries to kill it, draw until I find answer.

[Sloshthedark]

I think

1, the deck is just label being hard, if you're bad with Storm after couple of weeks you're probably bad at legacy/MtG in the first place...

2, the SCG Sundays have a decent portion of non-legacy players who aren't able to even try to step 1 and do not know what they are doing at all

3, getting stigmatized as the "Storm guy" in your LGS is the real point when it gets harder, it's when you open the door and flusterstorms start falling out of peoples binders... well that means you have earned some respected at least... the "i know what you're up to mull into FoW" is annoying and sometimes an obstacle for a novice...

conclusion - Storm is like any other better deck in legacy, pro/cons, strenghts/weaknesses, people not interested/experienced in legacy/Mtg tend to play poorly like with any other deck but do not see it (most damage is self inflicted, no creatures racing, combatmath = too much whip & no sugar), blame the deck rather then themselves then choose their favorite SFM deck/aggro tempo shit and spin the roulette with the same bad plays next week...

simply put it's not appealing/rewarding deck for the masses of average Mtg players

There is a lot more RUG Delver in the US than in Europe. RUG Delver is usually billed as the "aspiring Pro's top choice" because it give a great illusion of control, plus it's a delver deck so it can autopilot anyone with half a brain into Top 8. All that means is that it's a popular choice and has easy tools to fight most Storm decks between 8 free counters and an additional 7-8 one mana counters.

Most storm pilots cannot handle this kind of disruption without going into catatonic shock on a regular basis. Thus they put it down in favor of something more equitable against the bevy of Delver decks, which tend to also be blue based tempo strategies.

RUG - that's actually situation I'd love to play in... I consider Thresh one of my best match-ups (that's kind of sad) and definitely the most entertaining one