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Thread: RG Combo Lands

  1. #41

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    Hello all. I've posted a tournament report. Enjoy.

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ds-1-Epic-Loot
    Hi, just read your post here as well and wanted to add something about manabond. In short, I wouldn't cut it, because most games i've won were on the back of exploration/manabond with loam. And although manabonds are often cut game 2, I think they add a lot in winning game one.
    Also later in the game, if you're behind without exploration/manabond and dredging to find solutions (while also cycling thicket), the best card you can draw into (or gamble into) is probably manabond, since it can get you entirely back in the game with all the loamed back lands in hand. In the semifinals of SCG Baltimore that Kurt Spiess won, he was totally losing against a (bug I think) delver deck. At the last possible moment he topdecks a manabond, and from a loosing position he is suddenly in an inadvertible winning position, in a single turn, by putting his entire hand on the table and having access to a new token each turn.

    I usually side manabonds out as well, but lately I'm thinking this might be wrong and that at least one should remain in the deck postboard, against certain matchups.

    EDIT: thanks for the report, by the way!
    Last edited by Rivfader; 10-16-2014 at 04:33 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    Hi, just read your post here as well and wanted to add something about manabond. In short, I wouldn't cut it, because most games i've won were on the back of exploration/manabond with loam. And although manabonds are often cut game 2, I think they add a lot in winning game one.
    Also later in the game, if you're behind without exploration/manabond and dredging to find solutions (while also cycling thicket), the best card you can draw into (or gamble into) is probably manabond, since it can get you entirely back in the game with all the loamed back lands in hand. In the semifinals of SCG Baltimore that Kurt Spiess won, he was totally losing against a (bug I think) delver deck. At the last possible moment he topdecks a manabond, and from a loosing position he is suddenly in an inadvertible winning position, in a single turn, by putting his entire hand on the table and having access to a new token each turn.

    I usually side manabonds out as well, but lately I'm thinking this might be wrong and that at least one should remain in the deck postboard, against certain matchups.
    I happen to love manabond as a card personally because it allows for so many free wins and closes games much faster then Exploration which I find to be useful. I think from a historical standpoint it gets sideout against a lot of fair decks because they usually have a way to interact with your graveyard after sideboard. Typically players don't want to get blown out of a game like that after board. This is coupled with the fact that the US meta is saturated with fair decks for the most part which really de-emphasis the usefulness of manabond.

    and with all that being said I think you should keep them in. manabond adds some real redundancy with this verision of the lands deck unlike the control shell. Also with the ablility to side up to 4 DD in your maindeck you have a real chance of making a turn one token after board against the unfair decks which is relevant. Some fair decks also can't really interact with manabond very well either which matters

  3. #43

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    manabond adds some real redundancy with this verision of the lands deck unlike the control shell. Also with the ablility to side up to 4 DD in your maindeck you have a real chance of making a turn one token after board against the unfair decks which is relevant.
    Manabond and 4 pieces of both DD and are very strong, but this configuration hardly sees play because manabond goes out and 2x depths goes in. Which makes me wonder, how 4 copies of DD would do in the maindeck, along with manabond. I only see one reason not to to this, having to cut two maindeck cards. Which - on a first glance - could be Bojuka Bog and Karakas. I my meta I rarely face combomatchups where they are really relevant. It probably comes down to a comparison, how much does a full package of 4 maindeck DD, along with manabond, increase your wins? And how much worse would the matchups become in which Karakas and Bog are really relevant (considering that our own wincon becomes a bit faster as well with two extra DD)?

  4. #44

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    In the semifinals of SCG Baltimore that Kurt Spiess won, he was totally losing against a (bug I think) delver deck. At the last possible moment he topdecks a manabond, and from a loosing position he is suddenly in an inadvertible winning position, in a single turn, by putting his entire hand on the table and having access to a new token each turn.

    I usually side manabonds out as well, but lately I'm thinking this might be wrong and that at least one should remain in the deck postboard, against certain matchups.

    EDIT: thanks for the report, by the way!
    Yeah, man, I saw that video. It was definitely awesome to see Spiess steal that game with Manabond. I've got mixed feelings about it though, as I'd like for RG to have a maindeck answer to noncreature permanents like Inution Lands does--but maybe the best answer is just making a Marit Lage as soon as possible.

  5. #45

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    Yeah, man, I saw that video. It was definitely awesome to see Spiess steal that game with Manabond. I've got mixed feelings about it though, as I'd like for RG to have a maindeck answer to noncreature permanents like Inution Lands does--but maybe the best answer is just making a Marit Lage as soon as possible.
    The problem will be having access to both of them, without Tolaria West or Intuition (gambling or croprotating for them seems clunky). But perhaps it would be possible to splash some blue, for 1 Academy Ruins, 2 Tropical Island, 2 Tolaria West and 1 Engineered explosives. Minus 2 thickets, 2 depths (and playing Karakas an Bojuka Bog in the sideboard), a punishing fire and a Taiga, it just might work.

  6. #46
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    What's the point. If you want the flexibility that the control shell offers then start with that and slant it to a more combo centric game plan.

    The reason that I play RG is because of the two color manabase and how smooth it is in comparison to the control manabase which can be awkward.

  7. #47

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    What's the point. If you want the flexibility that the control shell offers then start with that and slant it to a more combo centric game plan.

    The reason that I play RG is because of the two color manabase and how smooth it is in comparison to the control manabase which can be awkward.
    With all respect for your reasons, but the suggestions aren't awkward manawise at all. It basically trading (only inclucing green lands) taiga/thicket/thicket for trop/trop/offcolorland. THat's one less greenland, but on the upside it's one more greenland that comes into play untapped.
    If there's an issue, it would be trading mainboard Karakas/Bog flex and postboard combocentrism (in 2 extra dark depths) for this package.

    Anyway, it's just a suggestion and not worth an unfruitful discussion through several posts, so lets leave it.

  8. #48
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    With all respect for your reasons, but the suggestions aren't awkward manawise at all. It basically trading (only inclucing green lands) taiga/thicket/thicket for trop/trop/offcolorland. THat's one less greenland, but on the upside it's one more greenland that comes into play untapped.
    If there's an issue, it would be trading mainboard Karakas/Bog flex and postboard combocentrism (in 2 extra dark depths) for this package.

    Anyway, it's just a suggestion and not worth an unfruitful discussion through several posts, so lets leave it.
    I don't think your suggestion is bad at all. I wouldn't say that as it is something that I have tried several times to work out myself. I think the problem that I have with it is that there's not enough core blue mana sources to support T.West consistently. So basically you have 4 Moxs and 2 Tropicals, and some number of fetchlands but they don't actually activate transmute or T.Stages which can copy an island I guess, anyway out of those six cards you need two of them turn on t.west which is going to make it hard to consistently transmute early in the game where EE really has the biggest impact. I would also try to run 2 EE's to increase you chances of drawing them.

    Thats why I made the suggestion to the blue lands manabase. it is because it is constructed to properly support the mana constraints of a double blue spell like T.west. After that you can really start heavily slanting the deck back towards the more R/G focused build but you don't really have to sacrifice some of the land tutor targets

  9. #49

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    I don't think your suggestion is bad at all. I wouldn't say that as it is something that I have tried several times to work out myself. I think the problem that I have with it is that there's not enough core blue mana sources to support T.West consistently. So basically you have 4 Moxs and 2 Tropicals, and some number of fetchlands but they don't actually activate transmute or T.Stages which can copy an island I guess, anyway out of those six cards you need two of them turn on t.west which is going to make it hard to consistently transmute early in the game where EE really has the biggest impact. I would also try to run 2 EE's to increase you chances of drawing them.

    Thats why I made the suggestion to the blue lands manabase. it is because it is constructed to properly support the mana constraints of a double blue spell like T.west. After that you can really start heavily slanting the deck back towards the more R/G focused build but you don't really have to sacrifice some of the land tutor targets
    Ok I thought you were talking about the green manabase. I have little experience with the RUGx version, but are you sure the manabase couldn't support this? When I look at RUGx manabase I usually see 3 trops, 3 fetch and 2 Twest (that's only slightly different from 2 trops, 4 fetch and 2 TWest). But you probably tested this already? If I can borrow two tropical islands, I might this myself.

    I played a 28 people tournament this weekend, going 3-1-1 and ending 9th (which is quite a frustrating place to end up). The draw was against Titan Post, which I found a hard match to play against. Won the first one through a quick wastelock, but game 2 he needled my wastelands, and with crop rotation, Karakas and repeal I couldn't get through. He finally saved up enough mana to cast two Eldrazi a turn, beating my Karakas, and killing me after playing almost 45 minutes on game 2. Game three evidently went to time.
    Ghost Quarter would have helped here evidently, but are there any other suggestions for this matchup? In retrospect, it doesn't seem favorable.

  10. #50
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Noooooo, there is a better green mana support in the RG version then the control by miles. The manabase in the blue version always felt stretched to me and i think it barely support Twest properly. To me it was always about hitting that double blue on time for the matchups you need it in and having a low/small chance to get double blue on turn two I think hurts.

    About post - the mono green version is worse to play against then the U/G but it is just an awkward matchup. I define this matchup by two factors

    1. Wastelock - keep pithing needle off the board using grip and waste or ghost quarter.
    2. COTV - is a utter house against them as it keeps them off pretty much everything.

  11. #51
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro View Post
    here is the tournament report of the recent scg open top 8 placing list.

    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...s?page=27#c675
    Happy for his strong placing! Some events prior to this he came to the scg venue in the middle of Saturday. He forgot to bring a deck for the Legacy trial and he asked to borrow my RUG Lands for the first time. I was okay about lending it to him because I have tested against his many delver, jund, and pox builds. He knew the general idea of the deck and Intuition's power could make up for a less than ideal pile. My only concern was how he could manage the clock. After smashing the field he was hooked, but preferred the RG version because that was more his play style. He did read through through the RUG thread, but much of the information was useless for multiple reasons(managing a third color, intuition pile, when is it safe to cast Intuition, keepable hands, sb, etc.). Since he was on RG I was unable to give him the best advice in later tournaments we played in because I was accustomed to having more utility and stablizing before jamming dd.

    The thread was losing focus on the RUG build and asking separate questions of RG scenarios. For example, in certain matchups RUG has ee to handle gy interaction and can more effectively play with a chalice for 1 on the field and has a completely different style vs Miracles. RG lacks these core tools and it was apparent people were asking questions for 2 different decks. It is crucial to realize this for the benefit of both strategies. Having a focused thread only strengthens the strategy when discussing RUG, RG, or Jund Depths that were often thrown around on the RUG thread.

    I would like to highlight this splitting of threads similar to ichorid's variations.

    Quote Originally Posted by gigapatrick View Post
    I'd rather have Kurt Spiess or someone else who has done well with the deck write a new primer.
    Me, too.

    When talking to Kurt on multiple occasions this year he didn't have anything to add to the blue Lands strategies that he himself played for years, but I don't hold that against him. He moved on last summer and maybe that is his preferred play style. He has not expressed any interest in maintaining a thread or making a deck primer by himself. I think if some Sources were to construct a primer they could forward it to Kurt for his opinion and that may add credibility to the OP. Seeing the deck play on camera and links could be added to show that the deck is indeed not the same as lists with blue.

  12. #52

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    When you say of Kurt Spiess,

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlaxcom View Post
    He moved on last summer and maybe that is his preferred play style.
    do you mean to say that he's dropped Lands entirely, has gone back to RUG Lands, or neither?

    In any case, the idea of someone writing a primer and getting his nod of approval sounds like a good one.

  13. #53
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Meant that he's moved off of the blue. He did shy away from RG in last year's gp and played a different deck entirely (Miracles I think), but aside from that just RG version.
    Last edited by snorlaxcom; 10-21-2014 at 10:59 AM.

  14. #54

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    I have a hard time beating Miracles, and would like an answer in the sideboard without diluting fast combo matchups. So far, I have come up with Null Rod. It disables Top, and shuts down artifact mana (the drawback however is mox diamond becoming useless). Has anyone ever tested the card?

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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    I have a hard time beating Miracles, and would like an answer in the sideboard without diluting fast combo matchups. So far, I have come up with Null Rod. It disables Top, and shuts down artifact mana (the drawback however is mox diamond becoming useless). Has anyone ever tested the card?
    My thoughts on null rod are the following: I think that the use of Mox Diamond is more important, if i was looking for an effect like that i would probably use Pithining Needle, and if you feel that the use of shutting down artifact mana is more important i would use Revoker.

  16. #56
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    I have a hard time beating Miracles, and would like an answer in the sideboard without diluting fast combo matchups. So far, I have come up with Null Rod. It disables Top, and shuts down artifact mana (the drawback however is mox diamond becoming useless). Has anyone ever tested the card?
    I'm in exactly the same spot. Been using 2xPithing Needle in that slot, the one for Miracles that is. It has the plus side that it can come in against a wide variety of other decks as well. Except against Storm.. which is why I've also been considering Null Rod. While Phyrexian Revoker could also fill that slot, I don't think it'd really cut it against Miracles, as they usually keep most, if not all, of their Swords and Terminus for G2 and G3 because of Marit.

    Another great sideboard card for the Miracle matchup, which I'm even considering moving main deck, is Ghost Quarter.
    I'd bet Worm Harvest would be a beating for them, but sadly the graveyard is compromised a great deal post-board.

    If just talking about tactics, I feel that games where I have as much mana disruption as possible are the games where I'm favored to win.
    In my mind, the ideal hand against them would be something like Exploration, Loam, Port, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, fetch, x, each slot interchangeable with Gamble and/or Crop Rotation. Probably a Mox, one more Port or a hate card as the seventh card.
    It would be interesting to hear if others have reached different conclusions.

  17. #57

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampart View Post
    My thoughts on null rod are the following: I think that the use of Mox Diamond is more important, if i was looking for an effect like that i would probably use Pithining Needle, and if you feel that the use of shutting down artifact mana is more important i would use Revoker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosferra View Post
    I'm in exactly the same spot. Been using 2xPithing Needle in that slot, the one for Miracles that is. It has the plus side that it can come in against a wide variety of other decks as well. Except against Storm.. which is why I've also been considering Null Rod. While Phyrexian Revoker could also fill that slot, I don't think it'd really cut it against Miracles, as they usually keep most, if not all, of their Swords and Terminus for G2 and G3 because of Marit.

    Another great sideboard card for the Miracle matchup, which I'm even considering moving main deck, is Ghost Quarter.
    I'd bet Worm Harvest would be a beating for them, but sadly the graveyard is compromised a great deal post-board.

    If just talking about tactics, I feel that games where I have as much mana disruption as possible are the games where I'm favored to win.
    In my mind, the ideal hand against them would be something like Exploration, Loam, Port, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, fetch, x, each slot interchangeable with Gamble and/or Crop Rotation. Probably a Mox, one more Port or a hate card as the seventh card.
    It would be interesting to hear if others have reached different conclusions.
    Thanks for the suggestions. Concerning the sideboard, I seem to be hesitating between 3 scenario's. Differences are always in the same 7-8 slots dedicated to combo / Miracles (as the other 7 slots seem set, 4x Krosan Grip, 2 Depths and 1 Bog/Maze/Karakas... depending how the main was configured). I have been constantly shifting between these scenario's, they all have pro's and con's.

    1) 1x chalice + 6x spheres
    The configuration of Kurt Spiess. A prisonstrategy with lots of synergy with wastelock and port, especially strong against storm, along with a fast comboplan. Less strong against Miracles I think.
    2) 4x spheres + 4x chalice
    Maximising on the two strongest effects. Unfortunately chalice shuts down some of our own cards, in particular crop rotation, watering down the comboplan and tutoring for silver bullets. But a chalice on one can be solved by dredging and casting loam each turn.
    3) Diverse hate
    A combination of the above with some other strong hate, but cutting slots on spheres and chalices for these cards.
    Pithing needle, Null Rod, Ghostquarter, Choke, ... come to mind. So lots of versatility, but less overall synergy (especially compared to the first scenario).

    Which configuration would be the best overall strategy versus combo and Miracles? Which sideboards are you guys playing?

  18. #58

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post

    Which configuration would be the best overall strategy versus combo and Miracles? Which sideboards are you guys playing?
    As I mentioned in my tournament report, I'm on the four Sphere, four Chalice sideboard plan, and I have mixed feelings about it. Originally, I wanted to go with four Chalice because it has applications outside of Combo (though it is awesome against Combo), including against Miracles and Delver decks. However, having tested it against Miracles, Chalice can be swingy. It can be awesome if you get it out soon and have Loam online--because then you don't need to cast Gamble (I generally board out Crop Rote). If, however, you have it out but don't have any action going, it's likely to hurt you just as much as them. Now, Chalice is a little bit of a different story against Combo, since if you get it out early you're likely messing with your opponent so much that it doesn't matter if you can't cast Gamble or Crop Rote. And as far as the Delver matchup goes--I'm not even sure you should board in Chalice, since that matchup is pretty good already. So I don't know. I'll continue testing, but I might drop down to three or maybe two Chalices for a second Dark Depths in the board and something else.

  19. #59
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    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Honestly, I don't think Chalice is nearly as strong in the R/G variant of Lands. Chalice for 1 makes a ton of sense in the RUG build as it only blanks the Crop Rotations from most lists. I find that I only really want Chalice if I can get it first turn on the play against Miracles, on zero against Storm, or maybe on 1 against Burn or this new U/R Delver build. It's a very powerful effect but it can also be very detrimental to us. I could see it as maybe a preemptive strike against extration effects, but even then it will probably eat an Abrupt Decay. I prefer Pithing Needle for the versatility and I'm still experimenting with having more silver bullet style cards in the board.

  20. #60

    Re: RG Combo Lands

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiptoon View Post
    Honestly, I don't think Chalice is nearly as strong in the R/G variant of Lands. Chalice for 1 makes a ton of sense in the RUG build as it only blanks the Crop Rotations from most lists. I find that I only really want Chalice if I can get it first turn on the play against Miracles, on zero against Storm, or maybe on 1 against Burn or this new U/R Delver build. It's a very powerful effect but it can also be very detrimental to us. I could see it as maybe a preemptive strike against extration effects, but even then it will probably eat an Abrupt Decay. I prefer Pithing Needle for the versatility and I'm still experimenting with having more silver bullet style cards in the board.
    It is stronger than you think, on the condition you have loam available, as Gigapatrick points out. You can sit behind a chalice on one and loam each turn, porting and wasting and meanwhile assembling combopieces, circumventing drawing into 1cc spells, while your opponent is stuck on a handfull of cantrips.
    That being said, I also don't see myself playing chalice versus aggrodecks, only in combomatchups with lots of 0 and 1drops and Miracles.

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