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Thread: Revoker/Needle cheating?

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    Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Say I have a Phyrexian Revoker or a Pithing Needle out. I name something that, it doesnt actually affect in any meaningful way. For example, I revoker naming Bridge from Below. If my opponent sacrifices a dude with a bridge in the yard to a therapy or whatever, but doesn't make a zombie, am I cheating by not telling him that Revoker does nothing and he is missing his trigger? Or is this simply unsporting? Or is it "next-leveling"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    If you don't actually say that your Needle/Revoker is prohibiting his unaffacted cards to trigger/work, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as you don't violate the rules (GRV) or tell him lies about information you are obliged to tell the truth about. If he just assumes his cards are shut down, it's his fault.

  3. #3

    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Or is this simply unsporting? Or is it "next-leveling"?
    Just these. Nothing wrong with doing it at a major event... At a local event on any level of competitive-ness I would feel bad doing it. I've always felt like locals are more for having a good time and doing your best VS going ham.
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    If it's a "May" you can continue as though they've opted to select not to use the trigger. If they call a judge, you can say that (s)he missed the trigger. I do agree that this is kind of a prick thing to do at more casual tournaments.

    If it's a "Must", I'd advise you say something because it's cheating if you don't and know. If you missed it (accidentally), call when you notice and expect the judges to be more upset that they have to write something on your slip than actually being called to it.
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by damionblackgear View Post
    If it's a "May" you can continue as though they've opted to select not to use the trigger. If they call a judge, you can say that (s)he missed the trigger. I do agree that this is kind of a prick thing to do at more casual tournaments.

    If it's a "Must", I'd advise you say something because it's cheating if you don't and know. If you missed it (accidentally), call when you notice and expect the judges to be more upset that they have to write something on your slip than actually being called to it.
    You aren't responsible for your opponent's mandatory triggers anymore - they are the some person responsible for them.

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    You aren't responsible for your opponent's mandatory triggers anymore - they are the some person responsible for them.
    This. Yes, at a more casual tournament it is a bit different,but I am thinking more for larger tournaments. I figured, since they are responsible, if they think Revoker would shut it down, they would "miss" the trigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  7. #7

    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Rules knowledge is a skill advantage in Magic. You can certainly mislead with rules-legal actions, but you can't otherwise lie or mislead. If they ask you whether something works, you have to answer correctly or call a judge to answer.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    A friend of mine once named Peacekeeper with Phyrexian Revoker when he had no maindeck removal for it in his Affinity deck. A truely masterful play in my eyes.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
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    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Does that prevent them from having the ability to pay the cost? Our did it just make his opponent think that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    You aren't responsible for your opponent's mandatory triggers anymore - they are the some person responsible for them.
    Too many changes. Lets just go back to pre-6th and be done with it.
    Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    A friend of mine once named Peacekeeper with Phyrexian Revoker when he had no maindeck removal for it in his Affinity deck. A truely masterful play in my eyes.
    What was he playing at? Making his opponent think Peacekeeper no longer worked and therefor not bothering to pay the upkeep to keep it around? Did it work?
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    He did this play several times and most often his opponent's were confused and called a judge for help from what I know.

    But what it's about is trying to squeeze out every legal edge you can get. I'm sure somebody somewhere would actually fall for it.

    I for example always ask "Who HAS TO start?" when my opponent wins the die roll. It's mostly just a source of amusement but this one time, my opponent allowed me start game3 of the Merfolk Mirror. Out of all matchups...yeah :-)
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    He did this play several times and most often his opponent's were confused and called a judge for help from what I know.

    But what it's about is trying to squeeze out every legal edge you can get. I'm sure somebody somewhere would actually fall for it.

    I for example always ask "Who HAS TO start?" when my opponent wins the die roll. It's mostly just a source of amusement but this one time, my opponent allowed me start game3 of the Merfolk Mirror. Out of all matchups...yeah :-)
    This might be a case of getting lost in translation, and if so I apologize. But how would phrasing the question like that result in your opponent letting you start?
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    This might be a case of getting lost in translation, and if so I apologize. But how would phrasing the question like that result in your opponent letting you start?
    You and your brother meet a an old women. She shows you a green pill and promises one of you great power and lots of wealth, while the other will lose all his hair. She tells you that she will be back tomorrow.

    You and your brother roll a die; you win.

    The next morning, the old lady comes back and asks: "Who has to eat the green pill?" .


    Notice how you would feel completly different about the exact same question if it was phrased "Who gets to eat the green pill?"
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Haha. So okay, you're playing a guy and you win game 2 and while shuffling for game 3 you ask your opponent (with an ominous tone of voice) "who has to start?" And your opponent panics and says "you" before dropping his deck due to shaky hands. Awesome
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    Rules knowledge is a skill advantage in Magic. You can certainly mislead with rules-legal actions, but you can't otherwise lie or mislead. If they ask you whether something works, you have to answer correctly or call a judge to answer.
    Can I say that I don't know, when I do in fact know?

  17. #17

    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
    Can I say that I don't know, when I do in fact know?
    You can, but it's a good idea to tell opponent to call a judge if they want to make sure. You don't want even the preception of attempting to take advantage of illegal play, if your opponent goes through with something illegal.

    It's usually best to ask a judge anyway unless you're absolutely sure.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    You can, but it's a good idea to tell opponent to call a judge if they want to make sure. You don't want even the preception of attempting to take advantage of illegal play, if your opponent goes through with something illegal.

    It's usually best to ask a judge anyway unless you're absolutely sure.
    That one Beta-Duals, all-Japanese Foil guy I ran into at the Bazaar of Moxen Vintage event was "absolutely sure" he could cycle his Rebuild from the graveyard after casting Yagwmoth's Will when it was his only out after fizzling hard on cantrips. Since I don't play a lot of Vintage, I told him that I wasn't too sure about that and we should probably call a judge.

    "No, no judge! I am a Vintage expert!!"
    — Ok, definitely calling a judge now, lol.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  19. #19
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    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Basically the moral of the story is: If you have any question about the interactions between cards, call a judge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  20. #20

    Re: Revoker/Needle cheating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    That one Beta-Duals, all-Japanese Foil guy I ran into at the Bazaar of Moxen Vintage event was "absolutely sure" he could cycle his Rebuild from the graveyard after casting Yagwmoth's Will when it was his only out after fizzling hard on cantrips. Since I don't play a lot of Vintage, I told him that I wasn't too sure about that and we should probably call a judge.

    "No, no judge! I am a Vintage expert!!"
    — Ok, definitely calling a judge now, lol.
    Well, in fact asking a judge is also not determinating. In a competitive tournament of above 100 players my oponent played Lake of the dead and -"in response to the trigger effect, he wanted to sac his only swamp to add to pool"-. I said he could not do this, we called a judge and he approved the play. So........

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