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Thread: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

  1. #21

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Since we're in the development phase still:

    I'm toying around a bit with Lim-Dûl's Vault, which is amazing for digging, but also - even though I'm not really a fan of the card - to get Kiki-Jiki on top for Skill Borrower.
    Also, Mirror of Fate is an, albeit 1 mana more expensive, alternative to Thought Lash

    I honestly think the deck would gain a lot from stepping off the second Skill Borrower plan (it doesn't really do anything for Lab Man (or does it?)) - which is pretty slow anyway, and focus more on protecting and solidifying the first game plan. This makes some more room for perhaps counterbalance, more counters all in all.

    Even then, I'm leaning more towards Lim-Dûl's Vault than Enlightened Tutor, although I didn't exhaust the other possibilities of bringing in black instead of white. Casting LDV at eot, repeat the digger until you find what you want, and in case you have Thought Lash in play, put the card you want safely at the respective place so cards to be exiled are above it. Even being able to LDV to that Sol-land you'd like is pretty great.

    Also, how scary is "response, Abrupt Decay" when you've just exiled your library -.-

    EDIT:
    Going way to far with this, but just trying out a version with black for Lim-Dûl's Vault and Hymn to Tourach to fight burn and ANT, if that makes any sense. Still feels clunky though, but maybe I'm just screwing up :-)
    Last edited by Daize; 08-19-2014 at 09:00 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Quote Originally Posted by Daize View Post
    Also, Mirror of Fate is an, albeit 1 mana more expensive, alternative to Thought Lash
    Nice find! :) I didn't know that this card exists until you brought it up.
    I will add it as a 1-of as a tutorable card for Skill Borrower with LTP and, like you said, as an alternative to Thought Lash.

    Dream scenario is: FoW pitching Lab Man, some turns later: Mirror of Fate getting Lab Man back and win.

    I will reduce the number of LTP to 3 and toy around a bit with Terminus as a tutorable sweeper.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daize View Post
    Also, how scary is "response, Abrupt Decay" when you've just exiled your library -.-
    Normally the way it goes is:
    1. exile library
    2. resp: Abrupt Decay
    3. resp: flip SDT/ cast Brainstorm

  3. #23

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Yeah, though the smart opponents will wait until your draw activation, naturally :D.

    I did do that once on cockatrice btw, FoW pitching lab man and getting him later with Mirror of Fate. It's interesting how Thought Lash works out as a staller for a few turns against aggro as well, btw.

    I really like the concept, my only annoyance really is that it takes 2 turns after you have your combo to blow off for kiki-jiki, and without a drawer another turn with Lab Man as well (and honestly, you _need_ to know whether your opponent has anything to kill off your lab man in response - that's a lot of resources).

    Iunno, this is the list I'm working with at the moment. Maybe it will give you all some ideas.

    4 Thought Lash
    4 Laboratory Maniac
    2 Mirror of Fate

    1 Flusterstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2 Misdirection
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Thoughtseize
    - Used to be Hymn to Tourach, but mostly to instead of waiting threats out, just getting them out beforehand

    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
    3 Ponder

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    2 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 City of Traitors
    1 Ancient Tomb
    4 Island

    SB: 3 Defense Grid
    SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 4 Toxic Deluge
    - These babies are amazing against aggro
    SB: 2 Temporal Mastery
    - I have to replace these, way too situational
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm

  4. #24
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    I wanted to bring 2 cards to you attention that I think might be good, or at least amusing.

    Scroll rack is a way to control the top card of your library for counterbalance and skill borrower.

    With a skill borrower in play it would be cool to enlightened tutor for mindslaver, thrash your opponents hand, then combo off unopposed afterwards.

  5. #25
    I'm so meta, even this acronym
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    There used to be a semi-viable Thoughtlash/Future Sight deck floating around. Maybe you can get some inspiration from it, idk. People also played around with Skill Borrower and Worldly Tutor (for Kiki) back when it first spoiled, but it never amounted to anything much.

  6. #26

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Wow, Mirror of Fate does a lot in this deck.

    Here are the interactions I can think of:

    1. Mirror of Fate + Thought Lash: stack library
    2. extra security for Lab Man in the case that he gets removed before being able to win the game
    3. Skill Borrower with Mirror of Fate on top of the library:
    a) forms the bridge between the Skill B. + Kiki-Jiki and the Lab Man + Thought Lash combos
    b) Skill Borrower only needs to survive 1 turn which can be a way to victory in cases in which you have got Brainstorm/ SDT in order to respond to their spot removal which would ruin your day if you went for the Kiki-Jiki route (you need a Lab Man in hand or exile to be able to pull this off though)
    4. FoW/Misdirection pitching Lab Man, later on get it back with Mirror
    5. ensures the possibilty to play Lab Man aggressively against decks with Swords to Plowshares as their main removal
    6. good way to win through needle effects or Meddling Mages shutting down the Thought Lash plan

  7. #27

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    You're right: that makes Enlightened tutor shenanigans possible as well... a singleton Mirror of Fate is easy to pick up, only Lab Man is still hard to get by. Snapcaster Mage is something I'm trying out for chump-blockers, extra digging and fetches. If we're going down the multi-dimensional road, what the heck. Also, how would stifle do here? The combo is slow - there's no denying that, and stifling fetch lands from game 1 on, and even doing it again with Snapcaster Mage can buy you some extra time (or just countering the Wasteland effect).

    Just some ideas.


    3 Thought Lash
    4 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Mirror of Fate
    5 Island
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Skill Borrower
    2 Plains
    4 Stifle
    4 Tundra
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Ancient Tomb
    1 Ponder
    SB: 3 Defense Grid
    SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm
    SB: 4 Silence


    Oh this is fun: skill borrower and lab man in play, eot Enlightened Tutor for Mirror of Fate, use it on my skill borrower in my upkeep...
    Last edited by Daize; 08-25-2014 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Thought I'd share this with you guys.

    7th Placed a legacy event in Europe


    Creatures [9]
    1 Griselbrand
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    3 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Skill Borrower

    Instants [16]
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Long-Term Plans
    3 Misdirection
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    Sorceries [7]
    1 Terminus
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Ponder


    Enchantments [4]
    4 Thought Lash

    Artifacts [4]
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    Lands [20]
    1 Tundra
    2 City of Traitors
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Polluted Delta
    6 Island

    3 Defense Grid
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    3 Culling Scales
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Surgical Extraction


    What I like about this deck is it's so simple. No messing around here.

    Termius buys so much time against creature decks, you have enough hard counters and Spell Pierce to stall and protect yourself.

  9. #29

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Sweet, good on you! Do you have matchup specifics? :D

  10. #30
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Not my list it's from a Europe event on TC decks...

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Hey,

    that's my list ;)

    I went 3-2 with it in a 22 man event in Mainz (Germany):

    2-1 vs UG Infect
    2-1 vs Burn
    2-0 vs Death n Taxes
    1-2 vs BUG Delver
    0-2 vs Storm

    The last 2 matches were very close and could have gone either way.
    Tournament report will be up soon.

  12. #32

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    the problem is (and will be forever) that no combo deck makes sense when you can cast a possibly uncounterable (Boseju, or other counters backup) 2U sorcery that lets you draw seven cards, at least, or play an Emrakul (or worse in the future. Because to sell cards, WotC will always have to print stronger ones).

    that's why all the combo decks of the last year revolve around Show and Tell. See Omnitell and SneakShow.
    All the rest is Stoneforge Mystic - based creature decks with counter backup.
    Why? Because no creature based deck makes sense when you have TNN around.

    With Show and Tell around nothing else makes sense, unless they print an Instant 2cc mana that lets you cheat an Emrakul into play.
    With TNN around no Tarmogoyf or any other pure aggro card will ever make sense.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Tell that to the TES, ANT, and Elves players.

  14. #34

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    those decks are surviving just because they see very little play.

    should they see more people would start to play much more Ethersworn Canonist and win with that.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    This took me to a 3-1 finish at my local FNM

    1 Griselbrand
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    3 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Skill Borrower

    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Long-Term Plans
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    1 Chromatic Sphere
    1 Jace the Mindsculpter

    4 Thought Lash

    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    2 City of Traitors
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Polluted Delta
    6 Island

  16. #36
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Dig Through Time seems like it belongs here. Delve works very well with Mirror of Fate if you're thinking of going down that road. I also really just want to find a card that combos off with Skill Borrower that is at least in color so it's castable and not a completely dead draw (even though it's probably pretty easy to Brainstorm it back into your deck).

  17. #37

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Hi!

    If you add some Thermopods, you will be able to start the combo with Thought Lash and Skill Borrower in the battlefield without passing your turn with one untapped Snow Covered Island. Just change Island into Snow Covered Island.

    Edit for details:

    Get Thought Lash and Skill Borrower in the battlefield with at least one untapped Snow Covered Island.

    Then, use Thought Lash activated ability until a Thermopod is revealed on top of your library. Now, Skill Borrower gains Thermopod's ability. Pay with the Snow Covered Island. Skill Borrower has now haste.

    Use Tought Lash's ability until you reveal Kiki and start the combo with a hasty Skill Borrower.

    Make lots of copy of Skill Borrower.

    Use Thought Lash until you reveal another Thermopod or Mirror of fate to put an exiled Thermopod on top of your library. Sacrifice as many as you want Skill Borrower to get lots of red mana.

    Get creative.
    Last edited by Kagehisa; 12-25-2014 at 04:05 PM.

  18. #38

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    Any consideration to splashing black and adding Lim Dul's Vault, Dark Rituals and Doomsdays?

  19. #39
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    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    I think splashing really isn't worth it. Also running Doomsday is WAY "too cute".

    Here is where I have settled on currently.

    4 Thought Lash
    4 Skill Borrower
    3 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    4 Force of Will
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    6 Island
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Griselbrand
    3 Long-Term Plans
    1 Chromatic Sphere
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Swan Song
    SB: 4 Counterbalance
    SB: 1 Chromatic Sphere
    SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
    SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk (Messing around with this)
    SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

    4 Maindeck Swan Song is simply amazing. The Thoughtlash makes the birds not matter, but being able to counter a Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, or Humility are all amazing advantages over Flusterstorm, and the fact it just hard counters makes it miles better than Spell Pierce.

    Grislebrand is very in and out for me right now. I really like the ability to just reload when I have it in hand and a Brainstorm, but no Thoughtlash, but 90% of the time it's a dead card. For now it stays, but may be gone next time I post a list.

  20. #40

    Re: [Deck]Skilled Maniac

    4 Thought Lash
    4 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Dig Through Time
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Lotus Petal
    1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Counterbalance
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    3 Shelldock Isle
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Cavern of Souls
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    7 Island


    Sideboard:
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Misdirection
    3 Back to Basics
    3 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Dismember



    I took this in a different direction, but I feel like the core concept still applies here. I went to a weekly local legacy tournament and went 2-1 overall. I beat UW control, Esper Deathblade, and lost (1-2) to UWR delver. Some notable differences:
    Shelldock Isle is really awesome as an alternate wincon with thought lash in play. The optimal plan is to cheat emrakul into play, but there are other useful cards it can cast from hideaway as well, such as Force of Will or even brainstorm for another instant-speed draw effect.
    Dig Through time is the most synergistic card ever with this deck. It digs for combo pieces AND you get to put 5 cards on the bottom in ANY order, which means if they're useful, you can dig to them with thought lash anyway. Score!

    My obvious alternate wincon is shelldock Isle + emrakul, and in games 2-3 I can sideboard into show and tell for emrakul as well. It catches people by surprise and is a wincon which is not reliant on a lightning-boltable creature or an artifact/enchantment, so I feel like it's a much better secondary plan of attack. The idea is that it's so much different from the main plan of attack that it can blank your opponent's sideboard plan. In matches where you win game 1 with the lab man plan, even if you lose game 2, this sideboard plan makes your opponent have a very very difficult decision on what to sideboard to stop your plans. Do they board in anti show and tell hate? Do they board in enchantment removal? Do they leave in all their creature removal spells? One thing to keep in mind is you may want to fake out your opponent by purposely sideboarding cards even if you aren't actually changing the deck in game 3 (put in 6 cards, take the same 6 cards back out).

    Jace has been pretty good in this deck, but I feel like he just dies against a deck with bolts or aggro stuff, which might not actually be the end of the world. Brainstorming and soaking up a bunch of damage seems fine in this deck, because sometimes you just need 1 more turn to get to thought lash with FoW backup, and from there aggro decks can't really mess you up. Thought lash is great at soaking up damage like that.

    I didn't know about the culling scales + SDT soft lock, I think it's neat but might be too cute for the deck. I should probably run some number of ratchet bombs in my sideboard, and I have contemplated removing ponders for preordains or impulses.

    Cards I am considering somewhere in the 75:
    Pithing Needle -- to protect the shelldock isle from wasteland in games 2-3, can also shut down some combo decks
    Ratchet bomb -- to destroy pithing needle/phyrexian revoker naming thought lash, and to defeat elves/death and taxes
    Impulse -- Setting up the bottom of the library is almost as good as setting up the top of the library in this deck, just knowing where cards are is a huge benefit. This would likely replace some number of ponders
    Chromatic Star/Sphere -- as a 1-of that I can dig for. Most likely the opponent will go to kill laboratory maniac when you cast this though, so it might not even be useful unless you have it in play pre-maniac

    Cards I might remove from the 75:
    Back to basics -- It is good counterspell bait and buys time, but 3 might not be the right number, and there might be some better options
    Dismember -- I think ratchet bomb might just be better here
    Ponder -- Might cut for preordain/impulse
    Lotus Petal -- Doesn't really enable anything a turn faster, but it's really useful in the show and tell plan if you're living the dream in game 2 or 3 (petal, ancient tomb, show and tell emrakul, FoW + blue card)


    I am playing this list (slightly modified) again tomorrow, and likely saturday at my local shop in a bigger event. I'll try and let you guys know how it goes.

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