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Thread: Did Burn kill Zoo?

  1. #21
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    First of all, Zoo was dead before Terminus was printed imho, and was dead far before TNN was printed. Zoo died the second after solid GSZ.midrange decks were possible. Why would you ever play an aggro deck, when you can play an aggrocontrol deck that actually has a possibility G1 vs Graveyard strategies and combo decks?
    Zoo died because of the natural evolution of legacy.Because the tools of combo and graveyard combo strategies were becoming stronger and faster and easier to set up, and creature strategies needed something to answer them instead of racing them (because racing combo and graveyard based decks was becoming harder and harder), so they adopted GSZ into Gaddock and Scavenging.
    After that, Terminus and TNN have been the last nails in the coffin.
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  2. #22

    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Delver, Batterskull, Terminus

    I see some local guys do well with one-drop Zoo time to time, many deck are simply not prepared - see Burn, but generally, yeah the deck is half dead for years

  3. #23
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    The question is, then, why isn't Zoo great in Modern? Most of the things you listed aren't present in the format. Terminus is really weak in Modern and sees very little play due to the lack of Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm. Stoneforge into Batterskull doesn't exist. Show and Tell doesn't exist. Delver of Secrets exists, but it's much weaker because the best thing it has to transform with is Serum Visions. Deathrite Shaman is banned. True-Name Nemesis isn't legal.

    I guess it is fair to point out that Zoo isn't as dead in Modern as it is in Legacy, but it's still not particularly impressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Ritual View Post

    Zoo in modern is outclassed by combo decks like twin and storm and pod is really good against it as well with kitchen finks and just the piles of good creatures it runs that are good against zoo. Anger of the gods also hurts zoo a lot and is played because of pod.
    Dark Ritual has hit the nail on the head here. Zoo has trouble with the creature-heavy combo decks common in Modern (hard to just race them when they have removal and/or lots of blockers - most Legacy combo decks have neither of these). It doesn't help that Pod has access to a lot of lifegain and value which is difficult to fight through. Paradoxically, because stack-based combo is much worse in Modern, everyone plays a ton of removal (you can stop splinter twin by just killing the Exarch). This makes the environment worse for Zoo, as in old Legacy Zoo preyed upon anti-combo blue decks that skimped on creature interaction. It's rare to see a card like Anger of the Gods in maindecks in Legacy, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post

    True-Name Nemesis was the nail in the coffin for me and some of the last devotees on the Zoo thread (I was going to say "many", but that implies there were still many of us left).

    It's not the fact that Zoo has a poor combo matchup that drove it out of the metagame: it always was inherently soft to combo, but you could tweak the deck to beat specific combo decks. Rather, it's the fact that even the fair matchups (which were once the reason to play Zoo) can give you issues that require very different strategies and cards to address, combined with the normal problems against combo.
    TNN was the last straw for me, I played one-drop Zoo as recently as last year but with very limited success. You are absolutely right about combo matchups - I have an undefeated record against Storm combo with one-drop Zoo, but generally had issues with Show and Tell and graveyard-based strategies. When you have to sideboard for three different combo pillars (Storm, Graveyard, A+B) that's already too much stress on your sideboard. Add in multiple "answer me or lose" cards out of fair decks - Batterskull, TNN, Terminus, etc. and you would need a 30-card sideboard.
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    To be fair, I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is a pretty solid card for Zoo in the board due to it's ability to fight combo in general (because Storm/Show and Tell are both on the 12-16 cantrip plan). I mean that doesn't make Zoo good, but I think vs combo you could actually have pretty decent game. Honestly it's like has been said. The former good MUs from fair decks have become bad since Batterskull is a beating as is Terminus. And TNN
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Batterskull is a powerful card, but doesn't Zoo run 4 Pridemages to combat it somewhat?

    And it's not just Zoo that suffered from Terminus. Maverick was basically wiped out in an instant and is now a T1,5-T2 deck, while it was one of the top decks of the format before.

    I wonder if Zoo became any better if it could run Aether Vial. It's a key card in the D&T vs Miracles match to keep up the pressure (and assassinate Jace).

  6. #26
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    To be fair, I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is a pretty solid card for Zoo in the board due to it's ability to fight combo in general (because Storm/Show and Tell are both on the 12-16 cantrip plan). I mean that doesn't make Zoo good, but I think vs combo you could actually have pretty decent game. Honestly it's like has been said. The former good MUs from fair decks have become bad since Batterskull is a beating as is Terminus. And TNN
    My friend, the topic of SotL has been discussed to death in 6 threads on TheSource (ANT, D&T, TES, SneakShow, Single Card Discussion, Spoiler thread) and the "OMG - Cantrips!" topic is still hot despite proven nonsense?

    Zoo was outdated with the printing of GSZ which gave GWx decks a toolbox and combo hate in Gaddock Teeg and with Zenith the deck wanted to run Noble Hierarch first and KotR later as a supreme lategame option. Batterskull, which was printed in a later expansion of the same block GSZ was in, sealed the deal.

    Delver had no influence at all and S&T was always a problem
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    My friend, the topic of SotL has been discussed to death in 6 threads on TheSource (ANT, D&T, TES, SneakShow, Single Card Discussion, Spoiler thread) and the "OMG - Cantrips!" topic is still hot despite proven nonsense?

    Zoo was outdated with the printing of GSZ which gave GWx decks a toolbox and combo hate in Gaddock Teeg and with Zenith the deck wanted to run Noble Hierarch first and KotR later as a supreme lategame option. Batterskull, which was printed in a later expansion of the same block GSZ was in, sealed the deal.

    Delver had no influence at all and S&T was always a problem
    I'm not sure what you mean. Yes I understand they were discussed, but what? I think it is a fine card. Nothing amazing, but it's a cog in the plan that can help to keep your opponent from going off before you kill them.

    And sure Zoo gets Pridemage, who is a good man in fighting BSkull, but they can still counter it/kill it before they put in BSkull or something. It certainly helps though. It's really just an overload of things that you have to be prepared to beat. I'm always surprised by how much people post about Zoo dying. I guess it was a very popular deck.
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    And sure Zoo gets Pridemage, who is a good man in fighting BSkull, but they can still counter it/kill it before they put in BSkull or something.
    And Zoo can just Bolt the shit out of Stoneforge Mystic.

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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Sure there are definitely ways to beat it. But a single force on your removal spells is pretty bad for Zoo then.
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. Yes I understand they were discussed, but what? I think it is a fine card. Nothing amazing, but it's a cog in the plan that can help to keep your opponent from going off before you kill them.
    It does nothing against the usual T1/2 "fix all my bad keeps" cantrips, nothing against fast combo, nothing against a 7/7 flying lifelinker, nothing against Ad Nauseam/PIF, nothing against EoT SDT into Terminus, can be responded to with brainstorm to minimize the impact, etc.

    All in all one of the worst hatebears possible

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  11. #31

    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    It does nothing against the usual T1/2 "fix all my bad keeps" cantrips, nothing against fast combo, nothing against a 7/7 flying lifelinker, nothing against Ad Nauseam/PIF, nothing against EoT SDT into Terminus, can be responded to with brainstorm to minimize the impact, etc.

    All in all one of the worst hatebears possible
    Why haz 22 Top 8 appearances in 6+ round tournaments? Big practical joke?

  12. #32

    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Batterskull is a powerful card, but doesn't Zoo run 4 Pridemages to combat it somewhat?

    And it's not just Zoo that suffered from Terminus. Maverick was basically wiped out in an instant and is now a T1,5-T2 deck, while it was one of the top decks of the format before.

    I wonder if Zoo became any better if it could run Aether Vial. It's a key card in the D&T vs Miracles match to keep up the pressure (and assassinate Jace).
    Was it Terminus that got rid of Maverick? I thought Deathrite Shaman was a huge factor in that.

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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Why haz 22 Top 8 appearances in 6+ round tournaments? Big practical joke?
    1) fix your grammar. I had to read it 3 times until I had an idea of what you trying to say
    2) do you count one-/two-off random appearances as well? It looks like that way. Shall we count some 1-off Eiganjo Castles as well to prove how broken the land is? ;)
    3) 22 SotL in total or deck what played at least one? See 1)
    4) worldwide, european or US metagame?
    5) in which timeframe? Since Release?
    6) are you talking about D&T as the core while we are talking about Zoo aka no other lock-components?
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  14. #34

    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    1) fix your grammar. I had to read it 3 times until I had an idea of what you trying to say
    2) do you count one-/two-off random appearances as well? It looks like that way. Shall we count some 1-off Eiganjo Castles as well to prove how broken the land is? ;)
    3) 22 SotL in total or deck what played at least one? See 1)
    4) worldwide, european or US metagame?
    5) in which timeframe? Since Release?
    6) are you talking about D&T as the core while we are talking about Zoo aka no other lock-components?
    1.) I iz asooming you no haz heard of lolcat?
    2.) Broken? I thought we were talking about a card being serviceable, and a viable choice. Eiganjo Castle has had 10 appearances, for the record, and is a viable piece.
    3.) 22 decks with at least 1 SotL. Most play 2. For reference, in the same timeframe, Canonist has been made 2 main deck apperances, Thalia has made 64, Noble Hierarch has made 40, Rest in Peace has made 6. Plenty of possible discussion regarding number of slots, card's role, and appearances in sideboards, to be sure.
    4.) Worldwide.
    5.) Since release. A little over 5 months.
    6.) 19 are D&T, 3 are Maverick. You seemed to be talking about the card in general. I don't know if Zoo is a good place for it, but those results seem good for "one of the worst hatebears possible". Couldn't be totally useless in Zoo either. If you look at the search results, quite a few feature in lists from Top 8s in huge tournaments, like BoM and SCG. I remember you saying that it wouldn't be good in D&T.

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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    I like it in combination with Thoughtseize. Obviously not Zoo, but I have been okay with it in Deadguy over Thalia in a non storm based meta.
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Was it Terminus that got rid of Maverick? I thought Deathrite Shaman was a huge factor in that.
    The rise of Miracles did.

    DRS just sealed the deal since it made KotR into a slow, glorified tutor instead of a prime win condition.

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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The rise of Miracles did.

    DRS just sealed the deal since it made KotR into a slow, glorified tutor instead of a prime win condition.
    Zoo can beat Miracles with a lot of Gaddocks K Grips, and Pridmages. True Name "killed" it.

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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freggle View Post
    Zoo can beat Miracles with a lot of Gaddocks K Grips, and Pridmages. True Name "killed" it.
    It was dead WAYYY before. TNN simply buried the body.
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    1.) I iz asooming you no haz heard of lolcat? I'm obviously too old for this childish nonsense

    2.) Broken? I thought we were talking about a card being serviceable, and a viable choice. Eiganjo Castle has had 10 appearances, for the record, and is a viable piece. The point is that the strategic relevance goes hand in hand with numbers. Obviously StoL or Eigenjo Castle are not that good that you want those in any game, which tells a lot about the Enchantment Creature, if it can't put up numbers in it's Natural Shell and within a format, which is nearly 90% based on Ponder + Brainstorm

    3.) 22 decks with at least 1 SotL. Most play 2. For reference, in the same timeframe, Canonist has been made 2 main deck apperances, Thalia has made 64, Noble Hierarch has made 40, Rest in Peace has made 6. Plenty of possible discussion regarding number of slots, card's role, and appearances in sideboards, to be sure. I agree as mentioned in 2). Canonist is however a much stronger hatebear for the purpose of hating out storm, while SotL has very limited impact on combo decks overall (sans High Tide) and therefore one of the worst hatebears against combo.

    4.) Worldwide.

    5.) Since release. A little over 5 months. I dunno if 22 showings withing like half a year is in any relation to how D&T performed overall in the same timespan or if SotL had any influence at all for the result of these 22.

    6.) 19 are D&T, 3 are Maverick. You seemed to be talking about the card in general. I don't know if Zoo is a good place for it, but those results seem good for "one of the worst hatebears possible". Couldn't be totally useless in Zoo either. If you look at the search results, quite a few feature in lists from Top 8s in huge tournaments, like BoM and SCG. I remember you saying that it wouldn't be good in D&T. again: just because it's thrown in as a one-/two-off in hope to Vial it in as a response to Brainstorm, it appears to be only a tertiary lockpiece. As a standalone hatebear in Zoo (I asume for the body only) I can't see it pulling it's weight. I said SotL is crap back when and I've beat every SotL I faced so far with ease for what it's worth. Maybe because I was either playing decks which don't care for SotL like Miracles/Storm or could sidestep it (not casting Glimpse in Elves). I Stand by my point made 5 months back that SotL is an underwhelming hatebear and disagree with the idea, that SotL is Maindeck material BECAUSE of storm
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  20. #40
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    Re: Did Burn kill Zoo?

    I can't even remember the last time I saw somebody playing a Zoo deck. There came a point where it was pretty potent during the Merfolk era but those days have long since passed. I think stoneforge put a pretty serious hurting on this deck. Everybody also started playing Threshold after Delver got printed which smashes Zoo.
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