Zombie might have been referring to the fact that on rare occasion miracles lists run punishing fire. I don't think any have top'd anything big lately, but they do well at smaller events occasionally.
It's interesting to hear that Miracles/Elves isn't that lopsided - it makes sense when you put it this way. One thing I'm sort of surprised by is with so many people pointing out that MUD has a number of good matchups (basically everything aside from BUG variants and Elves seems fairly winnable) that the deck isn't played more. Its 12-post matchup is pretty bad (I think?) but there aren't many people going full 12-post.
That makes sense - I'm very inexperienced with RUG as I said before, and I'll admit to a somewhat irrational anti-Stoneforge bias so I probably underrate any deck running it matchups.
Do you have any example lists to show?
My typical experience with PFire is that it's too slow, but if it's in a heavy blue control shell it will be trouble. Depends heavily on the build, though - many recent Miracles/midrange adaptations should do good work in those matchups too.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Maverick due to drs abs ooze attacking your graveyard, Thalia attacking your ability to dig and counter, wasteland constraining your mana, revoker turning off griselbrand's draw, teeg removing your force of wills, knight of the reliquary removing your ability to show and tell (since they just go find karakas), cavern removing your ability to really interact, pride made removing your ability to pithing needle, mind censor attacking your ability to entomb and fetch... The list goes on. Most builds of maverick are just awful for us. Thinks like massacre help, but at the end of the day it's KotR into Karakas and Maze that really just does it. Maverick seems like a bye on paper and a nightmare in practice.
DnT is kind of the reverse since the inception of Sire of Insanity (and more recently for me, Admonition Angel in the "non legendary answer to permanents" slot), since they A) have less actual "karakas" in their deck then Maverick since they dont have KotR and B) have generic beater guys that can't fight reanimator monsters where Maverick has "even more god damn hate bears". I actively consider DnT favorable anymore after testing with a local DnT player and running against it weekly at the LGS.
I'll stop hogging the thread now, but honestly guys, Miracles isn't the death match it was for us. Bugx, uwr, maverick are all much harder since miracles moved off of being a Rip combo /control deck (which I still don't understand at all).
11th at SCG Baltimore - 6/02/2013
2nd at SCG Philadelphia - 6/23/2013
28th at SCG Worcester - 7/07/2013
I unfortunately played this exact kind of deck at the most recent Bazaar of Moxen. As you mentioned, the Punishing Fires engine is way too slow to keep up with Elves on its own. This guy however was running it in a Grixis shell with Toxic Deluge to control the early assault and then deny any futre advancements with PFire. It was a horrible deck to play against. I even discarded his Toxic Deluge but he Brainstormed right into the next one.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Lands - Imperial Painter, Burn, fast combo
While these matchups are theoretically winnable (and I have beaten Burn before) they are extremely bad. Painter is probably the worst matchup for Cloudpost as well. Some other matchups I've noticed are REALLY bad, through playing one side and/or the other:
BUG Delver - Elves, Lands
Miracles - Punishing Jund (I've only lost this matchup once in tournament play as Jund, and that was due to extremely bad play on my part)
Deathblade - Nic Fit
RUG Delver (or really any Delver deck) - Jund Depths/Pox
Although nobody plays it anymore, the Gate is also an awful matchup for Delver decks.
I'm probably updating the OP post when a consensus is found on certain match-ups.
From what I've gathered so far:
RUG Delver - Pox? Dredge?
BUG Delver - Merfolk? Burn? Elves?
UWR Delver - Lands?
Goblins - Zoo??? Oops, All Spells?
Shardless BUG - Burn
Jund - Burn, Omni/Sneak Attack (with Leyline)
Maverick - Belcher, Oops, then Miracles
D&T - Belcher, Oops, Elves
Miracles - 12-Post
Esperblade - 12-Post
Deathblade - Jund? Shardless BUG? Jund? Burn
4x Lands/Loam Control - High Tide? Miracles? Other fast, spell-based combo? Burn? Painter?
12-Post - Pox? RUG Delver?? Storm?
Burn - Reanimator or any Show and Tell strategy with Leylines
Belcher - Reanimator
Oops! All Spells! - Reanimator
Painter - Burn, Goblins? Omnitell? Cloudpost?
Elves - Reanimator
Storm - Team America, Dragon Stompy, MUD?
Reanimator - Miracles? Maverick (black splash)? D&T?
Sneak & Show - Death and Taxes
Omnitell - Reanimator
Dredge - anything with decent GY hate, maybe D&T due to Thalia blocking their spells?
Edit: Dredge removed from the Elves matchup
Last edited by Barook; 07-24-2014 at 08:46 AM.
I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Agreed. Slight for Dredge, mitigated by Dredge's frequent mulligans makes it about even. I assume we're not including sideboards, or picking any match involving Dredge is pointless. Any deck has a solid shot. If we are, then Dredge running Firestorm becomes a strong favorite over Elves since they bring at most an Ooze from the SB.
Disregarding sideboards, Dredge's worst matchup is Reanimator. Its best is Pox. Since for some reason that is regarded as a deck for these purposes.
MUD's worst matchup is the mulligan.
Also, any Wasteland+Vial deck. B/G/x midrange decks can get annoying too. Once you get Lilliana going, the MUD player is done for. Chalice and 3sphere can't stop Lilliana and Abrupt Decay hits Chalice all day. The only saving grace MUD has are Wurmcoil Engines but that's about it. Blue splash can counter it and white splash can plow it.
Miracles: 12 post, goblins?
Barook, you can go ahead and erase goblins and then lock that one in. Going further, I think Miracles vs 12 post is probably among the most lopsided of all the matchups you are listing.
Painter vs Enchantress is literally unwinnable for Painter.
Don't know jack about the matchup, but:
Not natively blue => 6-8 blanks maindeck
Emrakul => goodbye combo
Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl => Goodbye Moon effects.
You're monored, forget about removing their stuff.
Basically, they just natively blank huge swaths of the deck so you're struggling to find action. This gives them all the time in the world to resolve things like Sigil of the Empty Throne, RIP-Helm and Words of War that you just can't do shit about.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
lands vs burn isnt that bad really. i think im like 10-2 in the matchup or something.
I guess new burn is better some. but when we can croprotate into chasm and play vs blood moon as the only dangerous card, its not that horrible.
Omnitell is the worst matchup.
"Brainstorm and Fetchlands are interesting although I don't know if Brainstorms alone are worth it right now, because Stifle is a common card. " -Peddi 2015.
Miracles has basically no reasonable way to interact with the strategy of ramping up to 15 Mana + Karakas and hardcasting Emrakul. The only cards in a Miracle deck that 12Post cares about are Blood Moon and a fast Entreat, but both can be handled by 12Post. Even in my very limited experience with 12Post (I'm in no way claiming to be a good pilot of the deck), I don't think I ever lost a game to Miracles.
Zombie hit most of the main points, but as an Enchantress pilot, I'll add a few more. First is that Solitary Confinement and Leyline of Sanctity make their controller untargetable, so the Painter player can't combo you without removing them. I still run 2-3 copies of Sterling Grove and setting up double Grove is trivial when you're only facing down a few counters because the answer, even with Painter's Servant set to blue, becomes "run your enchantments into their countermagic, then blow them out with Replenish". While most builds don't run it anymore, but Words of War kills every creature in Painter (to be fair, WoW kills most creatures when put into Enchantress) pretty easily, and Enchantress doesn't care about Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon.
The Painter player on some kind of crazy nut draw can probably take a game by getting turn 1 Painter's Servant followed by REB/Pyroblast/Jaya Ballard-ing the Enchantress player's lands, but that's an extreme corner case.
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