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Thread: Worst matchup for each deck

  1. #21
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Zombie might have been referring to the fact that on rare occasion miracles lists run punishing fire. I don't think any have top'd anything big lately, but they do well at smaller events occasionally.

  2. #22
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    I forgot about Maverick. Ya, that might be a tough one for MUD. Delver isn't so bad. Infact, MUD is probably even favored if it doesn't lose to its own draws. Basically ever card they cast is a must answer for delver and sticking a wurmcoil ends the game.

    Deathblade is definitely favored over RUG. And a good elves player with a recent list vs a good miracles with a recent list, its almost 50/50. Miracles is probably still favored, but its very slight. Elves has adapted a lot lately to beat that deck. It has a much harder time with stuff cheap effective removal like stp and ZP followed up by Jitte and backed up with counters. I agree with your other statements though, btm.
    It's interesting to hear that Miracles/Elves isn't that lopsided - it makes sense when you put it this way. One thing I'm sort of surprised by is with so many people pointing out that MUD has a number of good matchups (basically everything aside from BUG variants and Elves seems fairly winnable) that the deck isn't played more. Its 12-post matchup is pretty bad (I think?) but there aren't many people going full 12-post.

    Quote Originally Posted by trollking21 View Post
    I play a lot of RUG and if you play against the normal variant of death blade (with no basics) I would call the match up even. You sometimes waste stifle then bolt deathrite and win other times they go first and they play deathrite on turn 1 and win off the fact you never get to functionally deny mana.
    If they play basics you almost can't win
    That makes sense - I'm very inexperienced with RUG as I said before, and I'll admit to a somewhat irrational anti-Stoneforge bias so I probably underrate any deck running it matchups.

  3. #23
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Pfire control doesn't mean a punishing fire deck OR a control deck. It means a control deck playing punishing fire. Not really established archetypes but I have seen several times grixis or rug pfire control decklists.
    Nic fit decks with Pfire could also enter that category depending on the decklist.
    Do you have any example lists to show?

    My typical experience with PFire is that it's too slow, but if it's in a heavy blue control shell it will be trouble. Depends heavily on the build, though - many recent Miracles/midrange adaptations should do good work in those matchups too.
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  4. #24
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Maveric due to DRS/Ooze? I don't know, they normally switch to the S&T plan post-board. D&T also has decent game against Reanimator.
    Maverick due to drs abs ooze attacking your graveyard, Thalia attacking your ability to dig and counter, wasteland constraining your mana, revoker turning off griselbrand's draw, teeg removing your force of wills, knight of the reliquary removing your ability to show and tell (since they just go find karakas), cavern removing your ability to really interact, pride made removing your ability to pithing needle, mind censor attacking your ability to entomb and fetch... The list goes on. Most builds of maverick are just awful for us. Thinks like massacre help, but at the end of the day it's KotR into Karakas and Maze that really just does it. Maverick seems like a bye on paper and a nightmare in practice.

    DnT is kind of the reverse since the inception of Sire of Insanity (and more recently for me, Admonition Angel in the "non legendary answer to permanents" slot), since they A) have less actual "karakas" in their deck then Maverick since they dont have KotR and B) have generic beater guys that can't fight reanimator monsters where Maverick has "even more god damn hate bears". I actively consider DnT favorable anymore after testing with a local DnT player and running against it weekly at the LGS.

    I'll stop hogging the thread now, but honestly guys, Miracles isn't the death match it was for us. Bugx, uwr, maverick are all much harder since miracles moved off of being a Rip combo /control deck (which I still don't understand at all).
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  5. #25
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Do you have any example lists to show?

    My typical experience with PFire is that it's too slow, but if it's in a heavy blue control shell it will be trouble. Depends heavily on the build, though - many recent Miracles/midrange adaptations should do good work in those matchups too.
    I unfortunately played this exact kind of deck at the most recent Bazaar of Moxen. As you mentioned, the Punishing Fires engine is way too slow to keep up with Elves on its own. This guy however was running it in a Grixis shell with Toxic Deluge to control the early assault and then deny any futre advancements with PFire. It was a horrible deck to play against. I even discarded his Toxic Deluge but he Brainstormed right into the next one.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Lands - Imperial Painter, Burn, fast combo

    While these matchups are theoretically winnable (and I have beaten Burn before) they are extremely bad. Painter is probably the worst matchup for Cloudpost as well. Some other matchups I've noticed are REALLY bad, through playing one side and/or the other:

    BUG Delver - Elves, Lands

    Miracles - Punishing Jund (I've only lost this matchup once in tournament play as Jund, and that was due to extremely bad play on my part)

    Deathblade - Nic Fit

    RUG Delver (or really any Delver deck) - Jund Depths/Pox

    Although nobody plays it anymore, the Gate is also an awful matchup for Delver decks.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I'm probably updating the OP post when a consensus is found on certain match-ups.

    From what I've gathered so far:

    RUG Delver - Pox? Dredge?

    BUG Delver - Merfolk? Burn? Elves?

    UWR Delver - Lands?

    Goblins - Zoo??? Oops, All Spells?

    Shardless BUG - Burn

    Jund - Burn, Omni/Sneak Attack (with Leyline)

    Maverick - Belcher, Oops, then Miracles

    D&T - Belcher, Oops, Elves

    Miracles - 12-Post

    Esperblade - 12-Post

    Deathblade - Jund? Shardless BUG? Jund? Burn

    4x Lands/Loam Control - High Tide? Miracles? Other fast, spell-based combo? Burn? Painter?

    12-Post - Pox? RUG Delver?? Storm?

    Burn - Reanimator or any Show and Tell strategy with Leylines

    Belcher - Reanimator

    Oops! All Spells! - Reanimator

    Painter - Burn, Goblins? Omnitell? Cloudpost?

    Elves - Reanimator

    Storm - Team America, Dragon Stompy, MUD?

    Reanimator - Miracles? Maverick (black splash)? D&T?

    Sneak & Show - Death and Taxes

    Omnitell - Reanimator

    Dredge - anything with decent GY hate, maybe D&T due to Thalia blocking their spells?

    Edit: Dredge removed from the Elves matchup
    Last edited by Barook; 07-24-2014 at 09:46 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.
    Agreed. Slight for Dredge, mitigated by Dredge's frequent mulligans makes it about even. I assume we're not including sideboards, or picking any match involving Dredge is pointless. Any deck has a solid shot. If we are, then Dredge running Firestorm becomes a strong favorite over Elves since they bring at most an Ooze from the SB.

    Disregarding sideboards, Dredge's worst matchup is Reanimator. Its best is Pox. Since for some reason that is regarded as a deck for these purposes.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    Although nobody plays it anymore, the Gate is also an awful matchup for Delver decks.
    I'm looking to unleash it once again in two weeks at the Eternal Extravaganza.

    Delver.meta needs a wake up call, and you're right: it's a beautiful matchup.

  11. #31
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.
    Manaless, I can totally buy it. But LED Dredge I just can't make myself to. They're way faster and most of our hate is just bad unless Ooze can start a Cradle-fueled rampage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  12. #32
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    MUD's worst matchup is the mulligan.

    Also, any Wasteland+Vial deck. B/G/x midrange decks can get annoying too. Once you get Lilliana going, the MUD player is done for. Chalice and 3sphere can't stop Lilliana and Abrupt Decay hits Chalice all day. The only saving grace MUD has are Wurmcoil Engines but that's about it. Blue splash can counter it and white splash can plow it.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Miracles: 12 post, goblins?


    Barook, you can go ahead and erase goblins and then lock that one in. Going further, I think Miracles vs 12 post is probably among the most lopsided of all the matchups you are listing.

  14. #34

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Painter vs Enchantress is literally unwinnable for Painter.

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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Hustle View Post
    Painter vs Enchantress is literally unwinnable for Painter.
    I must be missing something: why is this the case?

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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    I must be missing something: why is this the case?
    Don't know jack about the matchup, but:
    Not natively blue => 6-8 blanks maindeck
    Emrakul => goodbye combo
    Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl => Goodbye Moon effects.
    You're monored, forget about removing their stuff.

    Basically, they just natively blank huge swaths of the deck so you're struggling to find action. This gives them all the time in the world to resolve things like Sigil of the Empty Throne, RIP-Helm and Words of War that you just can't do shit about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    lands vs burn isnt that bad really. i think im like 10-2 in the matchup or something.

    I guess new burn is better some. but when we can croprotate into chasm and play vs blood moon as the only dangerous card, its not that horrible.

    Omnitell is the worst matchup.
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  18. #38
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by oarsman View Post
    Miracles: 12 post, goblins?


    Barook, you can go ahead and erase goblins and then lock that one in. Going further, I think Miracles vs 12 post is probably among the most lopsided of all the matchups you are listing.
    Done

    Could you go a bit into detail why this match is so bad for Miracles? And I assume it's the UG version that gives it the most trouble. How does the MonoG variant perform vs Miracles?
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Could you go a bit into detail why this match is so bad for Miracles? And I assume it's the UG version that gives it the most trouble. How does the MonoG variant perform vs Miracles?
    Miracles has basically no reasonable way to interact with the strategy of ramping up to 15 Mana + Karakas and hardcasting Emrakul. The only cards in a Miracle deck that 12Post cares about are Blood Moon and a fast Entreat, but both can be handled by 12Post. Even in my very limited experience with 12Post (I'm in no way claiming to be a good pilot of the deck), I don't think I ever lost a game to Miracles.

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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    I must be missing something: why is this the case?
    Zombie hit most of the main points, but as an Enchantress pilot, I'll add a few more. First is that Solitary Confinement and Leyline of Sanctity make their controller untargetable, so the Painter player can't combo you without removing them. I still run 2-3 copies of Sterling Grove and setting up double Grove is trivial when you're only facing down a few counters because the answer, even with Painter's Servant set to blue, becomes "run your enchantments into their countermagic, then blow them out with Replenish". While most builds don't run it anymore, but Words of War kills every creature in Painter (to be fair, WoW kills most creatures when put into Enchantress) pretty easily, and Enchantress doesn't care about Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon.

    The Painter player on some kind of crazy nut draw can probably take a game by getting turn 1 Painter's Servant followed by REB/Pyroblast/Jaya Ballard-ing the Enchantress player's lands, but that's an extreme corner case.

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