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Thread: Worst matchup for each deck

  1. #41

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I think the worst Matchup for UWR Delver is PAINTER.

    Blood Moon effects are nearly a lockout.
    Even without Painter the Elemental/Pyroblasts hit most of the deck

  2. #42

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I would add Belcher to one of Painters worst matchups. You have to hope you have a T2 combo and that they are on the EtW plan if they are on the play.

    Blahhhhhhhhh

  3. #43

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I can speak about the decks i own/play, MUD and OmniTell.

    About MUD (the Post version that i play and the most popular build right now), the matchup i like more to face is Storm (ANT/TES); 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Trinisphere, 4x Lodestone Golem main, 4x Phyrexian Revoker from the sideboard. This matchups are in my experience at least 70/30 in MUD favor. So Storm worst matchup imho is MUD.

    MUD worst matchups in my experience are all kinds of Delver decks with Wasteland+Daze+fast pressure and i had bad experiences with Goblins too; it's not that you auto lose, it's that without Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void at 1 on the play the games are hard to win. So i cannot name a deck in particular, imho MUD got no 70/30 or 60/40 matchups, when it loses most of the time it loses to itself.

    About OmniTell, i think that all OmniTell players will agree that Reanimator is really really bad; again MUD is really bad too but with the fact that's an inconsistent deck you can still win at times; Reanimator is fast and consistent, probably a 70/30 matchup.

    The best matchup for OmniTell imho, and again i think OmniTell players will agree, is Lands. 12 Post is really good too, but Lands is better.

    I own a Manaless Dredge deck too but i don't have many games with the deck to be really sure of matchups so i'll pass on it.

  4. #44
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    One thing I'm sort of surprised by is with so many people pointing out that MUD has a number of good matchups (basically everything aside from BUG variants and Elves seems fairly winnable) that the deck isn't played more. Its 12-post matchup is pretty bad (I think?) but there aren't many people going full 12-post.
    MUD's worst matchup is itself. It's a really good deck, but basically suffers from the Stax problem of inconsistent draws/bad mulligans. Also without an early Trinisphere or Chalice they can be really susceptible to spot removal + Wasteland.
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  5. #45

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Omnitell's worst match up is definitely reanimator. The only real saving grace is defense grid and hope/praying they don't have the Iona.

    Delver can't beat control lands. And I mean it's a 98/2 match up in lands favor. The only reason they get the 2% is because some games lands will dredge half it's deck and still not find PFire.

    Lands worst match up is easily OmniTell. Their only hope is to port you into oblivion. And that usually doesn't work

    Miracles straight up can't beat 12 post.

    12 post straight up can't beat OmniTell

    Dredge doesn't lose to decks, it loses to cards. The best one being ravenous trap.

    Storm has issues against any deck that backs up pressure with disruption

  6. #46
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    4-Color Loam - OmniTell and High Tide first and foremost. Burn and Painter are beatable but unfavored.

    So it's about the same as it is for Lands, decks with loads of basics, few creatures and nonbasic land hate.

    OmniTell and High Tide: What little interaction we have usually gets countered.
    Burn: We have a pretty slow clock and, unlike Lands, can't Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm. A early Chalice for 1 gives us a good chance though.
    Painter: Blood Moon.

  7. #47
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I find that with MUD vs Delver.dec, it's a coinflip. As a MUD player, sometimes you resolve Chalice/Trinisphere and lock the Delver player out of the game. Sometimes, you resolve that early Wurmcoil and you can go to town with it. Sometime they open with a turn one Delver with permission backup.
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  8. #48

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    I must be missing something: why is this the case?
    In addition to what others have been mentioning, Stony Silence is not an uncommon SB tech, the deck generally runs Oblivion Ring as at least a one of MB, sometimes you see Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primordium, which all hit pretty much every piece of the Painter combo. While it is rogue, Nevermore and Runed Halo also see play and do not make the match easy. Any nonbasic that newer Enchantress lists net them Red, which helps the Words of War, Banefire or other burn strategy that the deck would usually have to Utopia Sprawl. Taiga or Mountain for. Painter either helps Enchantress too much or buys straight into the gameplan. Also, note how Grindstone uses the wording target, which is very difficult to do against Enchantress seeing as there are multiple Solitary Confinement style effects as well as the oblig Leyline of Sanctity. Painter also has difficulty interacting with the core of the engine, Argothian Enchantress. Hope this helps.

  9. #49

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Can someone explain why Esperblade has a hard time beating 12 post? I would think that a Batterskull can win before 12 post get their legendary creatures into play.

  10. #50
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by autonom View Post
    Can someone explain why Esperblade has a hard time beating 12 post? I would think that a Batterskull can win before 12 post get their legendry creatures into play.
    Batterskull attacks turn 4 at earliest. 12 post only really needs 6 turns to set up and kill, and it is extremely efficient at doing so. Delver gets to run daze as well which is huge.

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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Not to mention how hard is to race Glimmerpost chains.

  12. #52
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Shardless BUG: Burn and Painter are terrible to face, they are just too fast and hard to interact with. T1 Moon is a thing.

  13. #53
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    i think this is a great idea and something i would have liked to collect data on. I think you should separate bad matchups from not winnable. The two are very different. Death and taxes may be the worst matchup for sneak and show but by no means is it not winnable. Sneak and show will lose to itself more than anything, meaning it durdles and loses to any kind of unanswered threat... this is probably true of most combo decks, but there should probably be a clear distinction of the two.

    otherwise i wish you luck because there are lots of opinions posted that may or may not be accurate. it would be nice if the players who contribute most in each decks respective threads would post here on exactly what decks they specialize in to more easily get the data you want. You might accomplish this by sending a few PM's. Its unreasonable for 1 person to know all of the best/worst match ups for every deck in the meta.
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  14. #54
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    RUG Delver - Pox and The Gate
    BUG Delver - Merfolk
    Shardless BUG - Burn
    D&T - Elves
    Miracles - 12post/TurboEldrazi
    4x Lands/Loam Control - All SnT variants
    12 Post - Pox
    Burn - Miracles (or something with Counterbalance)
    Belcher - RUG Delver and BUG Delver
    Painter - Zoo
    Elves - Miracles
    Storm - BUG Delver
    Sneak & Show - D&T

  15. #55

    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    I think this is an awesome thread.

    Would you guys like to write one sentence per matchup explaining what about the decks makes the matchup great for one deck and terribad for the other? I think that would be this thread even more interesting and educational.

  16. #56
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Burn is one of the worst match ups for Imperial Painter.

    Your moons do nothing, you are a creature based combo deck and they are generally a turn 4-5 combo deck that's all removal.

    If the Burn pilot is at least OK they will always leave a bolt up to kill your Painter and so much of the deck is dead against Burn.

    Plus, you have to play against, likely, 2-3 Smash to Smithereens g2/g3...
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  17. #57
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    12 post's worst matchup is probably BUG delver. It is hard to deal with hand disruption, land disruption, and counterspells that are backed by a fast clock.

    Pox is actually a relatively easy match for the deck, despite the land destruction, their clock is slow and you can actually lock them out of the game with 2 needles, 1 on lilli and the other on factory. Also It is hard for them to deal with a resolved top, when you can float show and tell and primetime on top of the deck.

  18. #58
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by autonom View Post
    I think this is an awesome thread.

    Would you guys like to write one sentence per matchup explaining what about the decks makes the matchup great for one deck and terribad for the other? I think that would be this thread even more interesting and educational.
    I agree this would be helpful. Many people have given explanations but the OP needs to weigh them against each other and add them to the OP.


    Also, I believe many of the answers you seek can be found in the respective decks OP about them. I know for the decks I follow like Sneak and show, the OP JPA has spent considerable amount of time outlining ALL relevant information.


    S&T thread - with explanations

    Death and Taxes 35:65 - followed by an explanation why.


    Team america thread - with explanations

    Elves Unfavored
    EsperBlade Even or Unfavored
    Death and Taxes Unfavored
    Shardless BUG Unfavorable

    Imperial Painter thread

    Inherent bad matchups for iPainter include - with further analysis
    Any Eldrazi deck
    Zoo
    Maverick
    Jund
    Aggro Loam
    Burn
    Charbelcher and other fast combo not vulnerable to Moon effects

    Yeah i know its kind of a pain to sift through that information but if you do 1 thread a day you'll close in on it faster than you realize.


    I'd like to hear from the following people on their decks as i know they play them extensively and have tested all the in's and outs.


    Miracles - Dzra / Einherjer
    12 Post - Sauce
    Sneak & Show - JPA / Jaco (this info can be found on the thread)
    Omnitell - Lejay
    Rock - Sdematt
    High Tide - Di / Feline
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  19. #59
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by NilsH View Post
    Burn - Miracles (or something with Counterbalance)
    Having played on both sides of the matchup and lost far too many win-and-ins to Burn on Miracles, I assure you that this is not Burn's worst matchup (that would be Reanimator or Omnitell, the latter of which runs Leylines in its 75). I'm not even convinced it's unfavorable.

  20. #60
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    Re: Worst matchup for each deck

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    Having played on both sides of the matchup and lost far too many win-and-ins to Burn on Miracles, I assure you that this is not Burn's worst matchup (that would be Reanimator or Omnitell, the latter of which runs Leylines in its 75). I'm not even convinced it's unfavorable.
    NIC Fit is the absolute worst matchup for RUG. The matchup is probably 30/70. Cabal therapy for stifle, flashback, sacrifice explorer, get basics, abrupt decay delver, deed goose, proceed to play Standard circa 2012. Sad day.
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