Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

  1. #21

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by frafen View Post
    Gotta play around surgical extactions.
    If your aim is to do that you are required to play taiga lest all your trops are surgicaled out of existence and you are left with all these green cards/creatures in hand.

    Ponder is by far the best because it see's the most cards. The choice to shuffle is huge when combined with brainstorm or you just see trash whereas if the top 3 are trash with preordain you're keeping 1 no matter what and that isn't the case with ponder. Ponder, by general concensus, is more powerful than preordain just hear about some ANT players bitch about preordain and you'll see why.
    Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
    Currently Playing:
    All flavors of storm combo
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix
    Lands is a joke for Solidarity. Its like asking a morbidly obese parapalegic to run the mile with his shoes tied.

  2. #22

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Ritual View Post
    If your aim is to do that you are required to play taiga lest all your trops are surgicaled out of existence and you are left with all these green cards/creatures in hand.

    Ponder is by far the best because it see's the most cards. The choice to shuffle is huge when combined with brainstorm or you just see trash whereas if the top 3 are trash with preordain you're keeping 1 no matter what and that isn't the case with ponder. Ponder, by general concensus, is more powerful than preordain just hear about some ANT players bitch about preordain and you'll see why.
    I was joking about playing around surgical extraction I think that people overrate surgical extraction. I would be happy if my opponent sides in surgicals while I'm playing delver. Most of the times it's just free card advantage.

    I agree that ponder (+fetch) is more powerful than preordain in a vacuum. That's expecially true if your deck isn't damaged by making lots of land drops (=shuffle effects) and has powerful cards to search for (so the ponder's extra digging has more value). That's the case of the majority of legacy decks. Ponder is better than preordain in miracle, storm, show and tell... but I'm not sure that that's the case also in tempo decks, expecially in RUG delver. RUG in general doesn't want more than 2-3 lands, and also has not individual cards that can create an absurd advantage (no Jace, Terminus, Show and Tell, Past in Flames...).

    In conlusion, I think that also in tempo decks the best ponder will be always better than the best preordain, but the value of the average preordain is probably higher than the average ponder. Cutting 2/3/4 ponders for preordains could be a little decrease of deck's peak power to increase the tempo's gameplan stability.

  3. #23
    !
    jrsthethird's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2010
    Location

    Lehigh Valley, PA
    Posts

    1,654

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by frafen View Post
    I was joking about playing around surgical extraction I think that people overrate surgical extraction. I would be happy if my opponent sides in surgicals while I'm playing delver. Most of the times it's just free card advantage.
    Not if it's in conjunction with Wasteland and they take all your Seas or Volcs. But the extra 2 life loss is nice though.

  4. #24
    Pray for Rain
    Tammit67's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2010
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA, USA
    Posts

    1,534

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by jrsthethird View Post
    Not if it's in conjunction with Wasteland and they take all your Seas or Volcs. But the extra 2 life loss is nice though.
    Waste + Surgical extraction: When you can't win a heads up game anyway
    Matt Bevenour in real life

  5. #25
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    You guys have missed one argument for liking Preordain over Ponder:

    Preordain is always good. You ditch the crap and take what's useful.
    There's no way to misplay Preordain, or be disappointed with it.
    Preordain makes you happy because it improves your position no matter what cards you found with it.

    Ponder often finds you one card you want and two you do not want.
    Ponder often finds you two cards that may be of some use and a third you really do not want.
    Here you need to make decisions about how to proceed. Do you shuffle?
    Ponder + fetch is almost always good, but Ponder alone often presents you with a dilemma.

    So I'd usually say this:
    Basic rule: Ponder is better than Preordain, because you see a card more. So ask yourself:

    1. Do you usually need to find one specific card? Take Ponder.
    2. Do you have fetch lands aplenty? Take Ponder.
    3. Are you a good player, one who makes good decisions and wins games because of it? Take Ponder. (You will handle the dilemmas better that Ponder presents you with.)

    3.1. Do you look for a range of good cards and just want to ditch crap? Preordain might be an option.
    3.2. Do you have no -or a limited amount of- shuffle effects? Preordain might actually be better than Ponder.
    3.3. Are you a bad/highly inexperienced player? Preordain might actually be better than Ponder. (You will be prone to misplaying Ponder and lose games because of it.)

    These are the questions I would ask myself when choosing Ponder or Preordain.
    I am not the best player out there, but for me Ponder usually still wins.

  6. #26

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The only place of late I have seen a 4 Brainstorm, 4 Preordain build is Infect. I also feel it might be the only place that's right to do so.
    Why do you feel that it could be right only in infect?

    I did a quick research on mtgtop8 and I found that this year a guy top8 with RUG playing a 2/2 split between ponder and preordain.

  7. #27
    Force of Will is my bitch
    Finn's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    South Florida
    Posts

    2,979

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Ponder often finds you one card you want and two you do not want.
    Ponder often finds you two cards that may be of some use and a third you really do not want.
    Here you need to make decisions about how to proceed. Do you shuffle?
    Ponder + fetch is almost always good, but Ponder alone often presents you with a dilemma.
    This is a strength of Ponder, not a weakness. The card has limitations which are baked into its design. This weakness is off-set by the ubiquity of fetchlands so that you can effectively keep between 0 and 3 of the top three cards. Preordain can't touch that power.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  8. #28
    Is Cancer

    Join Date

    Jul 2014
    Posts

    1,146

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Preordain is always good. You ditch the crap and take what's useful.
    There's no way to misplay Preordain, or be disappointed with it.
    Preordain makes you happy because it improves your position no matter what cards you found with it.
    You're disappointed in situations where Ponder would've been at least marginally better:
    Dud
    Dud
    Dud <- preordain draws this, ponder sees it and gets a 4th chance

    Dud
    Ok Answer
    Better Answer <- preordain misses this for a less good card (Example: Daze for combo protection instead of Force/SPierce/REB.)

    Good Card
    Good Card
    Garbage <- preordain doesn't tell you that you'll want to fetch in 2 turns.


    Whether it feels good in those situations doesn't matter; because it's an "ignorance is bliss" situation; where you accept a worse outcome because it's the best it could do. Ponder, however would've let you get a better outcome regardless; even if it ends up bricking as well.

    No one is saying Preordain is garbage; so a Top 8 with a 2/2 split doesn't seem unreasonable; but even in Infect I don't get why you'd want Preordain. Don't they lack enough fetches?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  9. #29

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Probably the biggest advantage of ponder over preordain is the fact that it shows you 3 cards. Preordain only shows you 2 cards. Information is king when it comes to a high powered format like legacy you want as much information as possible to make the most informed/best decision. That's why ponder is so much better in all decks but especially tempo where all your decisions are quite critical to winning a game.
    Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
    Currently Playing:
    All flavors of storm combo
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix
    Lands is a joke for Solidarity. Its like asking a morbidly obese parapalegic to run the mile with his shoes tied.

  10. #30
    Member
    Teknique's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    San Francisco
    Posts

    91

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Ritual View Post
    Probably the biggest advantage of ponder over preordain is the fact that it shows you 3 cards. Preordain only shows you 2 cards. Information is king when it comes to a high powered format like legacy you want as much information as possible to make the most informed/best decision. That's why ponder is so much better in all decks but especially tempo where all your decisions are quite critical to winning a game.
    This is not true.

    Most people hail ponder over preordain because they think about these cantrips with the mindset that they are only used to find answers.
    Preordain can be a better card when you are actively trying to not draw certain things, or when you are looking for very specific cards and have knowledge of cards elsewhere in your deck (ie: bottom cards). This is one reason preordain was superior in Gold Digger while Dig Through Time was legal, but still a potentially relevant interaction with cards like Collected Company. Preordaining after a brainstorm in silver-bullet style lists is almost always better than ponder because you're guaranteed to not redraw the useless cards.

    Given that Dig is banned now, there are few places I could see preordain being better than ponder, but it's not something you should always assume.

    In tempo decks where raw velocity and searching for continued pressure is the primary game plan ponder is assuredly better and the 2/2 split is incorrect but may just have been a card availability issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Also, Burn, eat a dick sandwich. I got this for my Thopters board, just so I had an answer worth more than their deck, even if it was pimped out a bit.
    Gegengewicht, Weissagekreisel - Du bist dran.

  11. #31
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    You're disappointed in situations where Ponder would've been at least marginally better:
    Dud
    Dud
    Dud <- preordain draws this, ponder sees it and gets a 4th chance

    Dud
    Ok Answer
    Better Answer <- preordain misses this for a less good card (Example: Daze for combo protection instead of Force/SPierce/REB.)

    Good Card
    Good Card
    Garbage <- preordain doesn't tell you that you'll want to fetch in 2 turns.


    Whether it feels good in those situations doesn't matter; because it's an "ignorance is bliss" situation; where you accept a worse outcome because it's the best it could do. Ponder, however would've let you get a better outcome regardless; even if it ends up bricking as well.

    No one is saying Preordain is garbage; so a Top 8 with a 2/2 split doesn't seem unreasonable; but even in Infect I don't get why you'd want Preordain. Don't they lack enough fetches?
    Missing the point entirely. As was Finn.

    My point is this:
    Some players are bad.
    Some players will make bad decisions because Ponder is hard to use optimally.
    Playing cards that are hard to use will cause them to lose sometimes.
    So those players could be advised to practice a lot with Ponder, but play Preordain competitively.

    If you read my post entirely, you will see the questions I posed.
    You will know I usually favour Ponder.
    You will see I said Ponder is almost always the better card.
    But perhaps not for people who lack the play skill to use it well.

    But I fear not very many people read beyond the first few lines of text, so I'm not sure why I am typing this here anyway.

  12. #32
    get outta here, humanity.
    iamajellydonut's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2009
    Location

    Butugychag
    Posts

    2,031

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    My point is this:
    Some players are bad.
    Some players will make bad decisions because Ponder is hard to use optimally.
    Playing cards that are hard to use will cause them to lose sometimes.
    So those players could be advised to practice a lot with Ponder, but play Preordain competitively.
    So, use the chubby crayon on legal documents because they can't be trusted with a pen?

    Edit:

    10 Forest
    6 Island
    5 Plains

    4 Eager Cadet
    4 Horned Turtle
    4 Merfolk of the Pearl Trident
    4 Balduvian Bears
    4 Bear Cub
    3 Craw Wurm
    4 Forest Bear
    4 Grizzly Bears

    4 Healing Salve
    4 Preordain

  13. #33
    !
    jrsthethird's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2010
    Location

    Lehigh Valley, PA
    Posts

    1,654

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo


  14. #34
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    So, use the chubby crayon on legal documents because they can't be trusted with a pen?
    I know you're exaggerating, but your point is just bad. Let me give a valid example to explain why.

    Say you want to play Storm in legacy, but you are not very experienced with the mechanic. Should you pick up Doomsday? NOPE. You should try ANT first, see how that goes. Work your way up to TES and only then start to fiddle with Doomsday lists.

    All I'm saying is that Preordain is easier to use well. It's an argument. It should be here, if you are to analyse Ponder vs. Preordain to its fullest. It wasn't mentioned, so I put it out there. You can say it's an argument that's not applicable to you. Sure. But if you say the argument is invalid, you are simply wrong.

  15. #35
    Site Contributor
    Quasim0ff's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2013
    Posts

    1,433

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Say you want to play Storm in legacy, but you are not very experienced with the mechanic. Should you pick up Doomsday? NOPE. You should try ANT first, see how that goes. Work your way up to TES and only then start to fiddle with Doomsday lists.

    All I'm saying is that Preordain is easier to use well. It's an argument. It should be here, if you are to analyse Ponder vs. Preordain to its fullest. It wasn't mentioned, so I put it out there. You can say it's an argument that's not applicable to you. Sure. But if you say the argument is invalid, you are simply wrong.
    What?

    You are not familiar with storm. You want to play doomsday. You play doomsday. You get better. You might even start winning with doomsday.

    You play the deck you want to play, not some other deck that might relate to it. Just like you play RUG Delver instead of burn (> UR Delver > RUG) if that's what you're into.

  16. #36
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    You are not familiar with storm. You want to play doomsday. You play doomsday. You get better. You might even start winning with doomsday.
    In practice, sure. In competitive play, not such a good idea. You will lose, and because of that you will like the deck less, maybe even lose interest in the format or the game. Besides, if you don't understand the format or the game itself well enough, you will not know what you want. Getting started in Legacy is tough. Acquiring the necessary cards and knowledge is a long process. Start a newbee on Doomsday and he's gone within the month.

    But all examples beside, do you oppose the idea that Preordain is easier to use optimally than Ponder? Because that's the point I was making. Everyone seems hellbent on evading that simple point. Maybe you don't want to think about it because your play skill should be good enough to use Ponder well enough so it's better than Preordain, but not everyone is the same, and I know a couple of players to whom I would recommend Preordain over Ponder simply because they will make better use of it.

  17. #37
    get outta here, humanity.
    iamajellydonut's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2009
    Location

    Butugychag
    Posts

    2,031

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Because that's the point I was making.
    Nobody disagrees that Preordain isn't technically easier to use, but your point is still shit.

    If you bring a deck you can't play to a competitive tournament, you will lose. This is true. But if you bring a subpar deck that basically amounts to little more than a precon on the reasoning that you know its mechanics inside and out, you'll also probably lose.

    This may come as something of a shock, but being successful in a competitive environment takes knowledge, time, and effort. Using Preordain instead of Ponder because you don't understand "top three/shuffle/draw" won't make you any more successful in your competitive career.

  18. #38

    Re: Ponder VS Preordain in Tempo

    If someone is a bad player it doesn't matter what cantrip they're using as it's unlikely to gain them any % points in a matchup or real game of legacy. As for preordain in gold digger, fine there's that one deck that is now obsolete due to a banning that preordain was better in. You got me. As for ponder shuffle meaning you can draw the 2 cards you shuffled away post brainstorm sure out of 40 something cards there are at least 2 you don't want. The opposite is also true where you preordain, double bottom, then crack a fetch or something shuffles your deck afterwards meaning you can draw those 2 specific cards again. There's a reason you have some consistently good top finishers in legacy tournaments and it's because the bad players end up in the 2-4 bracket or some such place. Sure they can occasionally win off of luck and place well at a tournament but that's true of any format.

    If someone decides to play doomsday they have to devote themselves to the deck completely to learn all the millions of ins and outs it has because of its namesake card. The skills you learn in ANT and TES somewhat carry over because they share some similar cards but the overall gameplans of both decks are so different it's like saying you should learn spanish inquisition so as to be able to pilot solidarity or vice versa.
    Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
    Currently Playing:
    All flavors of storm combo
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix
    Lands is a joke for Solidarity. Its like asking a morbidly obese parapalegic to run the mile with his shoes tied.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)