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Thread: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

  1. #1
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    This works, you know. You cast your turn 1 Aether Vial and plop down the tree at your opponent's EOT. It's butch accel. I have known of this for over a year now, and I have consciously tried to incorporate it in my new decks, but somehow I never, ever keep it in my final version. In fact, I have never even gotten it off in a game. There are some kind of design forces preventing me from using these cards in tandem, but...

    I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE!

    ...and it is bothering me. I just can not put my finger on it. The best case resolution to this phenomenon would be to have a wonderful deck come out of this discussion. But I would be satisfied with a strong demonstration of what it pulling me (and presumably others - I can't be the only person who thinks these two cards together are The Sauce) away from keeping the two.

    Lemme start by shooting down some that I know are not responsible, or at least not solely responsible.
    1. Green Sun's Zenith and Vial are a nonbo. This is true, but I have been keeping plenty of creatures anyway.
    2. Arbor and Zenith push you to wanting one or two Arbors; not more. Also, not a problem. I have been playing three in several decks. In respect to the issues facing the Arbor's summoning sickness, not a problem.
    3. Mana supply does not support a nonbasic monogreen land. This was an issue in one deck for sure, but not the other two or three.

    All right. So here I ask you:

    WTF?
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  2. #2
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    The Vial trick works only when the Vial is set to zero, so it's great when you start with both pieces in hand, but you are likely to want to tick up Vial as soon as possible; otherwise, why play Vial over some other piece of acceleration? Therefore, each turn after that, the Dryad Arbors are effectively dead draws in that each is worse than any other land you could draw. In order to regularly encounter Turn 1 Aether Vial with Dryad Arbor in hand, you would want to run up to four Dryad Arbor. Dryad Arbor is usually a really awful card when it's in your opening hand because it eats up a land drop and can't make mana right away. As far as summoning sickness not being a problem, if it's not a problem for you, then great. It would be a problem for me.

    The deck that best fits both of these cards is Maverick. I think a Maverick deck with Natural Order might want more than one Dryad Arbor in order to facilitate that plan. Concordant Crossroads would be another way to improve multiple Dryad Arbors.

    Dryad Arbor received some tinkering a year and a half ago in a Lands-style deck called Arbor Day that I thought was very cool. That deck used Exploration to minimize the summoning sickness/effectively comes-into-play-tapped drawback of Dryad Arbor, and it used Natural Order and Cabal Therapy to make use of the extra bodies. Here's the thread on that:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...tural-Order%29

  3. #3
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Hi Finn,

    I'm aware there is no popular deck out there that features both, but why would Zenith + Vial be a nobo?

    Here's random list off the top of my head:

    4 Vial
    4 Zenith
    (8)

    4 SFM
    4 KotR
    4 Thalia
    1 Gaddock
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    3 Mother of Runes
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Pridemage
    1 Thrun
    1 Sigarda
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Tarmogoyf
    2 Revoker
    (25)

    1 Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 STP
    (7)

    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Savannah
    4 Wasteland
    2 Dryad Arbor
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 Cradle
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Karakas
    (20)

    - Traditionally those Vials would be Noble Hierarch's but both fill a similar role anyway - what do you think?

  4. #4

    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Finn, that's an interaction I've tinkered with before, too, but never kept around in any brew.
    I think you already listed the reasons for why the 4 Vial/4 Arbor configuration never happens, just without the key point that follows out of the list: Dryad Arbor is only a playable card if it counts as a land.

    Dryad Arbor is essentially a CipT land that dies to removal (and dies especially well to mass removal). How many of these can I put into my actual mana base - and count them as lands aka not increase my over all land count to fit them in! - before my mana doesn't really work out any more? My answer generally was one or two (there's a reason even lands as good as Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonade see just fringe play). So at that point, I need to put at least two of the Dryad Arbors into spell slots.
    That causes two problems. First, Dryad Arbor is by far the worst spell in my deck. I'm practically playing Memnite after all (though this Memnite has a built-in Springleaf Drum). Second, this is a deck that already makes room for Vials. Between Arbor, Vial and actual lands, you end up with a lot of your deck not actually doing anything of much relevance other than make mana. Both of these elements are reasonably high costs (though admittedly different formulations of the same issue).
    So what is our pay off? Well, in ~16% of our games we get to use Vial to put Dryad Arbor into play on turn one - a two card combo that emulates Exploration into Tranquil Thicket for a turn. Don't get me wrong, that's good, but not "turn two of my spell slots into Memnite" good.

    Not sure if that's the subconscious understanding you were hunting for Finn, but it's what made me shy away from the interaction again and again after starting with it.
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This works, you know. You cast your turn 1 Aether Vial and plop down the tree at your opponent's EOT. It's butch accel. I have known of this for over a year now, and I have consciously tried to incorporate it in my new decks, but somehow I never, ever keep it in my final version. In fact, I have never even gotten it off in a game. There are some kind of design forces preventing me from using these cards in tandem, but...

    I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE!

    ...and it is bothering me. I just can not put my finger on it. The best case resolution to this phenomenon would be to have a wonderful deck come out of this discussion. But I would be satisfied with a strong demonstration of what it pulling me (and presumably others - I can't be the only person who thinks these two cards together are The Sauce) away from keeping the two.

    Lemme start by shooting down some that I know are not responsible, or at least not solely responsible.
    1. Green Sun's Zenith and Vial are a nonbo. This is true, but I have been keeping plenty of creatures anyway.
    2. Arbor and Zenith push you to wanting one or two Arbors; not more. Also, not a problem. I have been playing three in several decks. In respect to the issues facing the Arbor's summoning sickness, not a problem.
    3. Mana supply does not support a nonbasic monogreen land. This was an issue in one deck for sure, but not the other two or three.

    All right. So here I ask you:

    WTF?
    The main reason is Green Sun's Zenith. Dryad Arbor is mostly good because it turns the slow Zenith into a Llanowar Elf on turn one. But AEther Vial doesn't interact well with Zenith, because you cannot Vial in a dude that you caugh up with Zenith. Both in hand means the Vial is a dead card. So usually, one plays either Vial or Zenith. If you choose Zenith, the interaction of Arbor and Vial isn't possible because of the absence of the latter. And if you choose Vial, the main reason to run an Arbor is gone. It just becomes a slow Boltable forest. The chances of it being in your opening hand togerther with Vial are small, even if you run the full set of both. And aside from that Arbor just isn't that good without Zenith.

    So there you have it.

  6. #6
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Maybe a deck with like:
    4 Vial
    4 Dryad Arbor
    4 Lotleth Troll
    4 Life from the Loam

    Get that engine of loaming back 3 Dryad Arbor to giant growth your lotleth troll over and over. Or continually get food back for a Fuana Shaman, or something.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Maybe a deck with like:
    4 Vial
    4 Dryad Arbor
    4 Lotleth Troll
    4 Life from the Loam

    Get that engine of loaming back 3 Dryad Arbor to giant growth your lotleth troll over and over. Or continually get food back for a Fuana Shaman, or something.
    Or something like
    4 Vial
    4 GSZ
    4 Arbor
    lots of ramp dudes
    lots of Primeval and Sundering Titans, lots of Sylvan Primordials
    4 NO

    This is what I'd love to build, but I still can't get any reasonable result.

  8. #8
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Or Painter to name green so you can GSZ/NO for non green creatures. NO for Emrakul? At worst you have painter naming green, you GSZ for Trinket mage fetching your grindstone then win next turn. Man this sounds sick. Like it physically makes me sick thinking about this awful(ly sweet) pile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  9. #9
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Finn, that's an interaction I've tinkered with before, too, but never kept around in any brew.
    I think you already listed the reasons for why the 4 Vial/4 Arbor configuration never happens, just without the key point that follows out of the list: Dryad Arbor is only a playable card if it counts as a land.

    Dryad Arbor is essentially a CipT land that dies to removal (and dies especially well to mass removal). How many of these can I put into my actual mana base - and count them as lands aka not increase my over all land count to fit them in! - before my mana doesn't really work out any more? My answer generally was one or two (there's a reason even lands as good as Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonade see just fringe play). So at that point, I need to put at least two of the Dryad Arbors into spell slots.
    That causes two problems. First, Dryad Arbor is by far the worst spell in my deck. I'm practically playing Memnite after all (though this Memnite has a built-in Springleaf Drum). Second, this is a deck that already makes room for Vials. Between Arbor, Vial and actual lands, you end up with a lot of your deck not actually doing anything of much relevance other than make mana. Both of these elements are reasonably high costs (though admittedly different formulations of the same issue).
    So what is our pay off? Well, in ~16% of our games we get to use Vial to put Dryad Arbor into play on turn one - a two card combo that emulates Exploration into Tranquil Thicket for a turn. Don't get me wrong, that's good, but not "turn two of my spell slots into Memnite" good.

    Not sure if that's the subconscious understanding you were hunting for Finn, but it's what made me shy away from the interaction again and again after starting with it.
    Yeah this is it. Along with what Asthereal said, after thinking about these words, I think I figured it out. See if this makes sense.

    The accel is great on turn 1. It is less so afterwards. I still think Dryad Arbor is a good card, even when counting it as a land, but as acceleration it is not good after turn 1. In fact it is deceleration. I have been counting them sorta like Brainstorm - as sorta half-lands. That stinks some. But moreover, the kinds of decks that would have Arbors and Vials have better acceleration options. The real nail is the fact that it is hard to include Aether Vial and Zenith in the same deck the same way it is hard to include Aether Vial and Snapcaster in the same deck, or fetchlands and Land Tax, or Tombstalker and Confidant. And you just don't play Arbors without Zenith.

    EDIT: I should mention that after asking this question, I made a deck to test it out. With Brainstorm I was able to live the dream several times by timing the new Vials with moving the tree in and out of my hand. It was not bad.
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    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  10. #10
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    EDIT: I should mention that after asking this question, I made a deck to test it out. With Brainstorm I was able to live the dream several times by timing the new Vials with moving the tree in and out of my hand. It was not bad.
    Brainstorm: Making everything more powerful, once again.

  11. #11
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Acceleration in Legacy should do something else, generally. The primary forms of mana acceleration turn 1 are Deathrite Shaman (Graveyard removal, pings,) Noble Hierarch (pumps,) and GSZ for a 1-of Arbor, which can obviously fetch other creatures later.

    There's also Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey, which let you cheat cards into play under certain constraints without paying mana for them at all.

    The Aether Vial into Arbor trick is just mana acceleration, and only on turn 1, and if it requires running more than one arbor then you're running more cards you have already correctly identified as deacceleration in hand.

    So it's a mediocre combo with bad side-effects.

    If the question is why never run GSZ with Vial, well, that's been tried a little, but Vial and Lackey work different than mana-accelerations. The latter complement your lands, the former replace them in effect and really more want you to have something else to do with said lands when you're not casting spells with them, hence the tendency for Vial decks to run Waste + Port (or manlands in the case of Merfolk.)
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    Re: Aether Vial and Dryad Arbor

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Or Painter to name green so you can GSZ/NO for non green creatures. NO for Emrakul? At worst you have painter naming green, you GSZ for Trinket exaggerateding your grindstone then win next turn. Man this sounds sick. Like it physically makes me sick thinking about this awful(ly sweet) pile.
    I have tried to fit this combo into Maverick before, usually at the expense of SFM and 1-2 random utility cards. It was ok, but it never really lead anywhere. After tnn came out I swore to stop playing maverick the same way i had sworn to stop playing zoo before it. Maybe something will obsolete jund soon and I can get back to brewing.

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