[Deck] UR Pyromancer

[Phoenix Ignition]

This deck has been seeing some play in day 2's of tournaments, but I can't find a list that is more polished than "a bunch of spells and young pyromancer + delver"

Here's what I've been playing.

18 lands:
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam vents
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
5 Island

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vapor Snag
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Izzet Charm
1 Deprive
1 Electrolyze

2 Vedalken Shackles


SB:
4 Blood Moon
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Shattering Spree
1 Steel Sabotage
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Electrolyze
3 Counterflux

The shackles look out of place, but they're a pretty great addition as most decks just cannot beat them. You do want to kill people quickly, but for the games where that doesn't work it's almost always way better to have the shackles as a contingency plan rather than just more burn. That's mainly because they shut down your 8 main threats early and you're dead in the water, there aren't a lot of games where you get them to 2 life or something and then lose. This deck is very fun to play, and getting out multiple young pyromancers can escalate ridiculously fast.

[cherub_daemon]

This deck has been seeing some play in day 2's of tournaments, but I can't find a list that is more polished than "a bunch of spells and young pyromancer + delver"

...list redacted...

The shackles look out of place, but they're a pretty great addition as most decks just cannot beat them. You do want to kill people quickly, but for the games where that doesn't work it's almost always way better to have the shackles as a contingency plan rather than just more burn. That's mainly because they shut down your 8 main threats early and you're dead in the water, there aren't a lot of games where you get them to 2 life or something and then lose. This deck is very fun to play, and getting out multiple young pyromancers can escalate ridiculously fast.

Looks like a good time. And your comment about the lack of convergence is apt. I found three entries from biggish events on mtgtop8:

List 1
List 2
List 3

It looks like there's some tendency to run a Sword of X/Y in your Shackles slot, or Threads of Disloyalty, which I can see; the ability to swipe a Goyf seems tempting. But shenanigans against Pod and Twin might be more useful? I'd be curious whether you looked at Threads, or tried it.

Also, there's a tendency to run Remand and a full playset of Snapcasters. Is that an ownership issue? You're also running 10 creatures compared to a usual 13-15, but if you count Shackles as a creature, I guess that gives you 12 most of the time.

The thing noone seems to be running is Nivmagus Elemental, which is interesting. I would think that it would be solid in races, or as a sideboard card for matches against blue (exile your counter(s) in a war you're going to lose). Better than Lavamancer/Snapcaster? Dunno about that and probably that's why. But it is cheaper than Snapcaster (mana/$$), so I would have thought it would show up somewhere.

[Phoenix Ignition]

It looks like there's some tendency to run a Sword of X/Y in your Shackles slot, or Threads of Disloyalty, which I can see; the ability to swipe a Goyf seems tempting. But shenanigans against Pod and Twin might be more useful? I'd be curious whether you looked at Threads, or tried it.

I looked at threads but there are 2 reasons I like shackles despite it's mana intensiveness. The biggest reason is that shackles is a bomb, it lets you chump with their creatures and stall for so much time. This is important because the deck really has 2 types of games, either you win because you get a threat and protect it for a few turns or everything gets removed and you just sit and do nothing for a while. Shackles is one of the only cards that can pull you back from that type of game, it's on power level with planeswalkers. I would try a Sword of X/Y but like I said either you get a creature and it doesn't die or you don't get anything but control spells and your threats all died.

The second reason is instant speed stealing. Manlands and twin are super prevalent so this is just better.

Also, there's a tendency to run Remand and a full playset of Snapcasters. Is that an ownership issue? You're also running 10 creatures compared to a usual 13-15, but if you count Shackles as a creature, I guess that gives you 12 most of the time.

Ownership isn't an issue. I've run remand but in terms of mana if I'm going to spend 2 on something I want to hard counter it, and I'd run Deprive over the Remands. There are games where Remand is perfect to fuel your pyromancers, but in the games where you have pyromancer sticking on the board I think you have enough other spells to fuel it. Deprive is really really good in this type of deck.

Snapcaster is fine but a 2/1 body isn't a very fast clock, and it comes down later than it is useful. It gives you a flashback card but since you either can easily get 20 damage or you're stuck not hurting them, flashing back a bolt to the face or attacking with a 2/1 for a couple turns doesn't really turn the tides.

The thing noone seems to be running is Nivmagus Elemental, which is interesting. I would think that it would be solid in races, or as a sideboard card for matches against blue (exile your counter(s) in a war you're going to lose). Better than Lavamancer/Snapcaster? Dunno about that and probably that's why. But it is cheaper than Snapcaster (mana/$$), so I would have thought it would show up somewhere.

My problem with nivmagus and similars (wee dragonauts, kiln fiend) is that they eat your card advantage and also can be chumped. Flying gets around it with Delver and I suppose wee dragonauts, but investing into Nivmagus seems bad when they can just chump him and you're then out of a hand.

I like Lavamancer a lot, it's extra attrition or straight to the face damage, and can take out important creatures. Not just a beater, kind of a swiss army knife.

[Mr. Safety]

It seems like vendilion clique should be somewhere in the 75. In some metagames I could see clique main shackles side, particularly if tron or scapeshift are prevalent.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm not a huge fan of clique because a 3/1 for 3 isn't actually that impressive and Gitaxian Probe + like 10 counterspells already kind of give you his effect. I'll throw 1 in to try it out, but he's as strong as Delver without getting out early. I mean he's great against combo and unfair decks, but shackles hits so many more decks, and tron/scapeshift in general aren't played nearly as much as creature decks.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

What about Thought Scour instead of Slight of hand to fuel Grim and Snapcaster?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I really like the extra dig for when you have to keep a hand with no threats and a bunch of cantrips. Lavamancer never runs out of targets but I could see it helping out Snapcaster. Still, I like the choice for either threat-empty or land-light hands. Cantrips can get you out of bad hands if you play ones that dig. Also, sleight is much better at "chaining" spells with pyro out.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not a huge fan of clique because a 3/1 for 3 isn't actually that impressive and Gitaxian Probe + like 10 counterspells already kind of give you his effect. I'll throw 1 in to try it out, but he's as strong as Delver without getting out early. I mean he's shrug against combo and unfair decks, but shackles hits so many more decks, and tron/scapeshift in general aren't played nearly as much as creature decks.

As I said, metagame/matchup dependant.

I played a version for a little while, and against it several times. If your threats are dealt with you have a hard time making the late game. I think I like rug delver better with goyfs. Synergy is big in the ur version, but it can sometimes just lose to abrupt decay or supreme verdict. *shrug* I think there is a reason that this deck doesn't finish in top 8's, and that reason is that while its good its just underpowered xompared to what you could be doing (twin mostly in these colors).

[Phoenix Ignition]

*shrug* I think there is a reason that this deck doesn't finish in top 8's, and that reason is that while its good its just underpowered xompared to what you could be doing (twin mostly in these colors).

Yeah, I guess I should just stop trying decks other than pod /sarcasm. This deck has finished top 8's many times (see above posts), and is able to run a lot of disruption compared to normal decks, while having a deadly finisher if it goes unanswered.

I played a version for a little while, and against it several times. If your threats are dealt with you have a hard time making the late game. I think I like rug delver better with goyfs. Synergy is big in the ur version, but it can sometimes just lose to abrupt decay or supreme verdict.

Green only adds goyf and possibly sideboard ancient grudge (though shattering spree is arguably better since we already run some amount of instant speed removal and you side out countermagic against affinity). You lose the ability to run Blood Moon without hitting yourself and again, open yourself up to chump blockers stopping your plan. Delver has evasion, and young pyromancer never attacks. Abrupt Decay is fine at killing Delver but you should never be playing a Pyromancer without retaining priority and casting another spell after it (gitaxian probe/s or wait till turn 3). Snapcaster sucks at attacking but gets his card advantage back immediately, and grim lavamancer has his own evasion. Against Twin/pod/affinity they do have chump blockers and goyf doesn't do all that much. Also, three color vs 2 color opens yourself up to mana screw or an extra 3-6 damage per game to your own lands.

From your comments it sounds like you don't play the deck correctly. You shouldn't be getting blown out by a Supreme Verdict because you don't want to throw all your threats onto the field if you do have multiples. Young Pyromancer and 1/1s getting supreme verdicted is still just a 1 for 1 (and most UWr decks don't even have more than 1 or 2 to begin with). When you have a threat try to protect him until you win. If they abrupt decay it, play another one. You have so much cantripping that you should have no problems finding more than 1 threat.

Blood Moon is also an absolute house against probably half of the decks out there. If you've played modern for a long time you'll have seen decks that play blood moon and lose to their own manabase afterwards. 2 Color is easily supportable with blood moon, 3 is not at all.

[Mr. Safety]

Its not about playing all my threats, sometimes you only land one serious threat (delver or pyro, snapcaster is weak as a genuine threat.)

I don't count online dailies for serious results. Often it is due to budgetary factors that some decks are prevalent online. But while we're talking modo lists...there has been a small showing of rug delver, and not just for goyf (but stop lying to yourself, goyf and ancient grudge are both reason enough to splash green.) Simic Charm has made appearances, as well as higher land counts to support huntmaster. Losing blood moon isn't a problem, it can be used in them.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Its not about playing all my threats, sometimes you only land one serious threat (delver or pyro, snapcaster is weak as a genuine threat.)

I don't count online dailies for serious results. Often it is due to budgetary factors that some decks are prevalent online. But while we're talking modo lists...there has been a small showing of rug delver, and not just for goyf (but stop lying to yourself, goyf and ancient grudge are both reason enough to splash green.) Simic Charm has made appearances, as well as higher land counts to support huntmaster. Losing blood moon isn't a problem, it can be used in them.

What do you have against facts? If you want to make shit up at least make sure it isn't incredibly easy to fact check. GP Boston: Day 2: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...gpbos14/d2meta 6 Rug lists, 6 UR pyromancer lists. Clearly they are both decks, because they both had awesome records in the biggest modern event in recent history.

How am I lying to myself by saying this is a deck? If you want to talk about a green splash, go make a rug thread.

[cherub_daemon]

I don't count online dailies for serious results. Often it is due to budgetary factors that some decks are prevalent online.

I don't either, and since I posted the above lists, I feel compelled to clarify that they were all from paper events; one large (114 player) Spanish event, and two Khans of Tarkir PTQ's in France and Germany. This was the thinking that was behind my earlier "ownership" question about Remand and Snapcaster, incidentally. It looked like the only "top8" lists not running them hard were in terrible online dailies.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but by the same source, if you apply the same standard to RUG Delver, you get the same number; 3 high showings in competitive paper tournaments,depending on how you count GP Trials. (1/2/3). Not clear what the denominator is, since budget will still be a factor in paper events.

Edited: I need to write posts faster...sorry to say essentially the same thing. Didn't mean to gang up on anyone.

[Mr. Safety]

Whoa, please, i meant no offense. I was just sharing my experience and observations. I wasn't talking in absolutes. I've read from several pros that the online metagame can be driven more by budget and availability than paper magic. When it comes down to how well a deck is performing I tend to weigh paper tournaments more than modo. I don't have anything against facts, I just mean that mokdo results do have a slant that is recognized in the community.
All I meant was that goyf is worth a green splash, which you mentioned earlier wasn't good enough to warrent green (paraphrasing.) Rug twin is a deck too, and its green is only for goyf and grudge, occasionally scooze. Green for goyf alone does pass the straight face test.

And I was at gp boston, I'm aware of the deck making a day two presence. This bit of data more than the rest supports this deck as an up-and-coming player in the tier 2 bracket.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Fine, then to reiterate. Although I own a playset of every modern staple save the ones that you wouldn't want multiples of (Iona, elesh norn, etc), I still am under the impression that tarmogoyf does not help the deck.

Reason #1: There are only so many slots for non-instant/sorceries in the deck. The flex slot I'm playing here is 2 Grim Lavamancer, which is better against Pod, Affinity, and any swarm deck, than a straight up big creature would be (depending on a lot of factors but I'll say "in general"). The other flex slot I see is 2 Vedalken Shackles are completely my choice, but they have done wonderously in the card slot that I want them in (see post).

Reason #2: While tarmogoyf is a big dumb beater that you want against something like Tron or storm, most other decks can effectively chump block him until their plan works. Notice that Delver and Pyromancer can virtually go around all creatures in the format (Lingering Souls being the only real exception I've found for delver, as a single removal/bounce spell doesn't always keep him alive, but he's delver so yeah). Snapcaster I barely consider an attacker, and as such I only play 2 (note again because this seems to be a recurring question, I own 4). He's just not that great in your opening hand, and hitting 4 mana doesn't consistently happen by turn 4. You could up the number of lands, but that would dilute delver/pyromancer's abilities. This game doesn't have a instakill like 1/2 the modern decks out there, so it's important to not play easily chump blocked creatures.

Reason #3: 3 color manabases. Basics are really a big deal. I'm surprised you guys haven't noticed how much damage you deal yourself in modern with manabases that have a ton of dual lands. Frequently it isn't that easy to hit both your red and your green splash, or to do so you screw up your life total. The less colors the stronger the manabase, and with burn being a sizable portion of metagames, both paper and online, necessarily dealing yourself extra damage is something you need to justify.

Reason #4: Seriously, blood moon. What's tarmogoyf good against? Unfair decks (fast clock) or decks that don't have a lot of chump blockers (UWr control, kind of). What's blood moon good against? Unfair decks (Tron, scapeshift), and stuff with greedy manabases (UWR control, Jund). They are basically good against the same thing, and one requires you to screw up your manabase and play a creature that runs itself into chump blockers until your advantages are gone.

I'm not saying green splash isn't good, I'm saying I don't think it's strictly a monetary decision or even necessarily better.

As for Remands (of which, yes, I own 4), it doesn't answer a threat and doesn't stop removal targeting your delver/pyromancer. As good as it is in tempo decks and in decks that want to keep cantripping, it doesn't stop the biggest problems. It's freaking amazing when you have Pyromancer going and not dead, but I've also had times where it was completely underwhelming (hello 1 mana cost Path to Exile/Lightning bolt!).

[Mr. Safety]

Its been established that this is a deck without green.

What can be added so the late game against grindy decks isn't auto lose? Man lands in these colors are fairly weak but a single faerie conclave seems ok. Not sure about Keldon Megaliths as an option for reach. I think Grim Lavamancer is better. Electrolyze seems already good against lingering souls. What about a one-of Koth?