[Primer] Nic Feat. 8Post

[Fatal]

Nic Feat. 8Post Primer

Update 2016-01-24




1. Genesis

Everyone who's interesting Legacy enough, know both decks:
- Nic Fit - the BG/X control deck with Green Sun's Zenith single bullets, Basics and Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy engine -Thread on TheSource

- 12Post - U/G deck which running Eldrazi's, Primeval Titan and Show and Tell engine which can cheat one of them to play. Titan lead to Eye of Ugin and more Cloudpost / Vesuva (copies Cloudpost or Glimmerpost when life is matter) - Thread on TheSource

Both decks have same aim - which is quite unique in Legacy - Ramp to over cost bombs (over 3/4 CMC which is standard for Legacy late game) which can't be handled by normal Legacy Tools - Grave Titan or hardcasting Emrakuls.

The aim which I hope to achive - hybrid which cover both deck weakness.

Nic Fit weakness - This deck mostly control non-land, non-plainswalker permanents by Pernicous Deed - which is all star there, problem starts when opposite deck have Basic lands (Nic Fit advantage from Explorer ramp helps also opponent) and can handle game-ending bombs from Nic Fit ( for example Grave Titan) - read - mostly Miracles. The other weak leg is all S&T MU - when the bombs can't be destroyed by Pernicious Deed/Abrupt Decay's - Eldrazi's from S&T.

Nic Fit advantage - Explosiveness - fundamental turn can clean table and drop bomb, have a lot of removal tools, basic gives protection from tempo decks, fetching them can dodge soft counters which give way to victory.

12Post weakness - Wasteland, Tempo, Counters - Delvers decks, Blood Moon decks & REB/Pyroblast for S&T, also aggro - without real removal (only bounce) you can survive too long that's why most of them pack Glacial Chasm, or Moment's Peace.

12Post advantage - Best almost unstoppable game end - Hardcasting Eldrazi which can be researched by Eye of Ugin.


<--Early game---------------------------Middle game --------------------------------End game------>
<-----------------|------------Nic Fit best time-------------------|-------------------------------------->
<----|--12Post by S&T--|-----------------------------------------|-------------12Post by lands----|->
<------------|----------------Nic Feat 8Post Hybrid best time--------------------------------------|--->

Aim is to fill gap by Nic Fit tools which has 12Cloudpost between S&T and normal mana casting.

The biggest task to achieve was manabase - mixing fetchlands, Cloudpost (colorless), duals and basics - now its very stable but still require to foreseeing next turns.

2. Meta choice

First idea in for this deck was after Terminus get real thing in 2012 - Miracles - this deck is one of the best, still very good positioned in meta. Tested this deck in dozens of game (in real and by Cockatrice). I played with it on GPT in 2012 and get a slot (advantage over standard Nic Fit decks, and Miracles gives an edge to win). It's very well positioned vs middle-range decks thanks to massive card advantage.

When to not pick it - Fast combo (TES/ANT/Belcher), Burn - weak point for both decks - nothing more to said - discard isn't enough, that's what should cover SB.

3. Decklist Card selection - 2015-12-11

Here is actual decklist which is optimal:

4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
//sb
2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg


Wurmcoil is good as 1-of vs BUG.

Lets dispatch deck on engines:

Ramping Engines:

Veteran Explorer - Ramping, suffling, chumping. You can read about it in Nic Fit. Important thing is also that it stabilize your starting mana. Interesting thing - It doesn't work under Rest in Peace, and Leyline of the Void.

Cabal Therapy - to pair with Veteran Explorer - sacrifice engine - one of the best 1 mana discard ever exist, knowing what to name is a key to victory. Funny fact - What card would you name beeing on play vs random opponent G1 ? Answer is - "Brainstorm" - its most popular card ever played (almost 50% of decks), more over its one of the card which would mess up after you flashback therapy.

Phyrexian Tower - it's too good to not running it in this engine - part of sacrifice engine - It can also save creatures from Exile which sometimes matter, there is also a infinity turn combo with Eye of Ugin.

Primeval Titan - 1 card engine - searching missing lands to cast /or search bombs is mostly enough. It can also search for glimmerpost when you need it. Even after StP its just 1-for-3 card. Mostly game winning. A lot of decks (not running white) can't mostly deal with resolved Titan.

Solemn Simulacrum - a lot of people ask me why - answer is easy - its best 4 cmc colorless ramp which can easy stabilize missing color, drawing card, fuel for therapy, and abrupt decay proof.

Wood Elves - same reason as Solemn - not so strong but can be searched by Green Sun's Zenith.

Removal package:

Pernicious Deed - It's all star removal in Legacy - it's clean all non-land (but including manlands !), non-plainswalker permanents - most time it would be for 3 and less to clear opponent board. Once I killed opponent Emrakul from Sneak Attack - quite epic. Important to remember - it also kills Manlands which Decay can't.

Abrupt Decay - It is an upgrade from first lists which was using Innocent Blood (can also trigger Veteran Explorer) - cheap uncounterable removal which can also hit Liliana of the veil, or Blood Moon - is always good to see.

Karn Librated - On early versions it was All is Dust - but I switched to Karn since it cost the same, and can be very good vs slow and grindy matchups. It's just much better Liliana - can exile what you want, and can cut opponent hand - must counter for all controls.

Support

Sensei's Divining Top - with all that mana its very good card to select discard/ramp from bombs. Its important to deck running proper amount of shuffle effects - this deck run quite a lot - 20 of them is enough to shuffle each turn. It can also works well with Pernicious Deed cleaning.

Green Sun's Zenith - it can be anything - from Explorer ramp, over Wood Elves Ramp to Titan game ending - opens also a way to more single bullets sideboard cards selection.

Eternal Witness - 1-of under GSZ is very good. First versions run 2-of but after printing Deathrite Shaman it's power is much more situational. Mostly used vs opponent wasteland on Eye of Ugin to slow down Eldrazi's.

Game ending bombs

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -Extra turn (Infinity turns loop with Eye of Ugin), Flying, Anihilator 6, protection from Spells - enough to end game.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - After reach 6 mana and playing Titan (Eye of Ugin + Cloudpost) its enough mana to play it. Drawing 4 cards is when casting so only stifle/trickbind/voidslime can stop it

Both Eldrazi shuffle on trigger after goes to GY which can be very handly vs Painter's Servant/grindstone mill.


Manabase

E - 26 lands

1 doesn't give mana (Eye of Ugin)
9 doesn't give color mana (Cloudposts, Glimmerpost, Tower - it can bring black but only conditionally)
1 doesn't give proper mana (support Karakas vs S&T targets, searched by Titan)

6 basics (4 Forests, 2 Swamps)
4 Duals
5 fetchlands (1 can search only dual/forest)

so its only 15 lands that produce colored mana - a lot of time you will start with only one color - all ramp, and support will stabilize it and you will find second one. Green is the most important color here - it lead to all ramp and wincons.

SB will be decribed in part 6. Weak sides- building SB.

4. How to play this deck

Aim to win
is to ramp to 6-7 mana and play Pimeval Titan or Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan,
then depends on situation:
1) You are on low life and opponent deck can't handle Titan - search Glimmerposts then repeat process
2) Opponent can handle Titan (StP/Terminus) - search Eye of Ugin for game ending bomb
3) Opponent develop Legendary thread (via S&T/ Renimation) - search for Karakas

This to start this process you need to ramp.

Ramping strategy:

Early game - Veteran Explorer engine ramp, control board with removal and discard - very important to name proper cards from Cabal Therapy.

Middle game - Solemn ramp, Elves - control, and card advantage with quality achieve by SDT and shuffle effects.

Late game - game winning process

Infinity turns loop:

Need Eye of Ugin and 13-20 mana:

1.Search for Emrakul EOT (to dodge discard)
2. Play Emrakul (cost 13 mana thanks to Eye) take extra turn
3. Attack and sacrifice(Phyrexian Tower)/bounce(Karakas) Emrakul

You can loop it in one turn with 20 mana, you can separate it on two turns (7 search, 13 cast).

Mana curve scenerios connected with actions:

Vet scenerio (actions) / Cloudpost scenerio (actions)
Turn 1 - 1 mana(Cabal Therapy, SDT) colored / colorless (Cloudpost tapped)
Turn 2 - 2 colored (GSZ for Vet, or Vet, sculpt hand, removal etc) / 3 colorless (SDT, 2nd Cloudpost)
Turn 3 - 5 colored (Solemn/Wooded Elves/Pernicous Deed) / 4 colorless and 1 color / 6 colorless (Solemn)
Turn 4 - 6 colored (Titan) / 6 colorless and 1 colored (GSZ for Titan)
Turn 5 - 6 colored and 4 colorless(Titan / Eldrazi cast/search/Karn/Deed) / 10 colorless and 2 colored (Titan / Eldrazi cast/search/Karn/Deed)
Turn 6 - 6 colored and 12 colorless(Eldrazi search /cast) / 20 colorless and 2 colored (Eldrazi search /cast) - here game mostly ends.

How to dodge swords to plowshares:
StP and all removal removal can be blank completely,
Just have sacrifice outlet first then play Veteran Explorer and with holding priority sacrifice it.

Important to gain access to both mana and ramp optimal. Cloudpost will give you a lot of mana but it comes to play tapped - remember about it.

For all Wastelands decks - keep Eye on hand if you draw it naturally (even if they running hymn's), if they destory Eye game isn't end - you still can bring it back with Eternal Witness, or naturally draw Eldrazi which isnt hard with SDT and many shuffle effects.

5. Matchups

Miracles
Very favorable pre and post board for Hybrid, cards which Miracles have to counter: P.Deed, GSZ, Titans, Therapies, SDT, even after SB when opponent has splashed Blood Moon you still can handle it very easy with Abrupt Decay (same with Counterbalance), this deck is developed to win vs slow controls. Only real thread is Venser with Karakas(need to be killed by Deed/Hero's Downfall).
You just put lands, don't rush, save GSZ for Titans, blow up counterbalance (Terminus can counter Titan) with Decay, and ramp with normal drawing cards, attack life total, use Cabal Therapy to clean up his hand. Then just fetch more Cloudposts via Titan and win via Eye of Ugin. Only way you lose the game is early Entreat the Angels with Deed countered - its not to often.
Use Hero's Downfall vs Jace.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_10515.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...lay_225618.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...lay_225811.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_9665X.cor

Death Blade
Harder them Miracles but still Favorable pre and post board thanks to Pernicious Deed and Abrupt Decay - use Cabal Therapy to clean up equipment - specially sword of fire/ice or Feast and Famine. Discard can be painful specially Clique - use SDT to hide key cards and Abrupt Decay to kill flying creatures. Chump attacks, as long as game will long your chances will growth, until you resolve first titan.

Replays (Cockatrice):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_61737.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_62029.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_62389.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_30830.cor


RUG Delver (aka Canadian Threshold)
Matchup very dependent on draw - RUG delver is very tied matchup, mostly stifle can mess up, but can be overplayed by discard. Resolved Titan/Wurmcoil is a win for you. Use basics to ramp and dodge wastelands. After you ramp to 6 mana its game. Try to dodge soft counters. Removal is all star here with no clock you win over time. MVP - resolved trigger from Explorer and Titans/Wurmcoils and Removal.


BUG Delver(aka Team America)
Similar to RUG but instead of Stifle discard is involved - SDT will be one of the MVP resolved Explorer can seal ground, any resolved Titan/Wurmcoil ends the game. Favorable matchup.

UWR Delver (aka Patriot)
Almost same as RUG Delver - but slower - easier for Hybrid. Equips can be discarded by Therapy. Still favorable easier then RUG.

Shadless BUG
Favorable - only counters and discard matters - Force of Will can stop Titans/GSZ other cards aren't such a problem. Sometimes they just draw too many wastelands with goyfs but you still can react with removal, and chumping with Veteran to victory.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_86672.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_86863.cor

Death & Taxes
Depends on build (Mangara can be trouble) but mostly removal can wipe all board with Vial included. Dodge StP with Explorer (its very important), use Abrupt on Revoker needling Deed, clean table, develop bomb - win. Favorable

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_11293.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_11494.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_11755.cor

Merfolks
Favorable - Explorer seal the ground until you sculpt his hand (Force of Will is only real answer) and resolve Deed to clean up, and Titan to win.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_11132.cor

Elves
Unfavorable matchup - You need to draw a lot of removal to stop them to achieve critical mass, if you develop p. Deed and use it - you mostly win. Its mostly too late - look out with Veteran which helps them also. First aim to discard is Natural Order. Glacial Chasm with 4 Crops improve this matchup a lot. Keep hand with enough ramp + Crop to fetch chasm in critical turn. Bombs will come from top. After you get enough mana Emrakul loop will get you a win. Use early discard to took out Natural Order or Glimpse.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_30572.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_59854.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_62737.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_63072.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_63222.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_13255.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_13378.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_13738.cor

Imperial Painter
Very favorable matchup pre and after SB - they can't combo, only chance is to close you on mana - which is quite hard with so many ramp. Moon can be killed by Abrupt Decay. to unlock your ramp.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_37632.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_38143.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_38313.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_38524.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_38729.cor

Sneak Attack
If pilot know how to play it can be unfavorable pre board, and tied after. Be prepared for Moon effects, and remove Sneak Attack as soon you can. Real thread is Sneak Attack and Emrakul, S&T is just 1 mana ramp for them, unless their mess up and play S&T on single thread which mostly lead to their lose. If you resolve Memoricide and you have active Karakas proper answer is Emrakul, note that you need backup plan vs needle/moon effect vs your Karakas.


ANT/TES
Unfavorable - your only way is to discard his hand and attack as fast as you can - G1 is very unfavorable, sometimes you can overplayed with Deed some Empty the Warrens, or clean with Deed some artifacts, use Therapy vs key cards (LED/IT/Burning Wish).

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eplay_9621.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eplay_9835.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eplay_9992.cor

Reanimator
Unfavorable preboard / tied afterboard - searchable karakas can be very handy here

Dredge
Unfavorable preboard / tied afterboard - searchable Bojuka Bog can be very handy here

12Post
Tied - all depends on how many cloudposts he put to play and version. Important note scrupt their hand with therapies, and use their Post as bump to cast your bombs. It's very important to have after SB Crop rotations, Memoricide also helps here (Sculpt Emmy, then Ulamog and at the end Kozilek if they running it). Key factor is EOT Rorations + Bomb like Eldrazi/Karn/Titan. Karn is probably MVP in this MU along with discard. Keep few Deeds vs Needle, Candelabra and other tools. Note that you still can blow up Eldrazi with it.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ay_171739X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ay_171840X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ay_171980X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ay_172331X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ay_172413X.cor

Burn
Unfavorable - one card - price of progress, play around them, use discard and removal to survive. Never board out removal. Brind Memoricide against. Look out on your lands on beginning, before you clean his hand.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...lay_105914.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...lay_106055.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...lay_106248.cor

Lands
Favorable - 6 basic can screw their control plan, after you resolve Titan its walk in the park. Look out for their combo from Dark Depths/Thespian - Crop rotation to Karakas will be your counterpunch to it.


Aggro Loam
Tied - Knight of the Reliquary and recursion wasteland can be very nasty - fetch basics, Veteran Engine with Titan ending is best way to deal with Aggro Loam. Easier after SB.

Junk
depends on build if equip heavy/lingering souls - favorable, if Knight of the Reliquary build - Tied, discard can be painful, use proper card selection with SDT.

Maverick
- Favorable, similar as Junk but without discard - Pernicous Deed totally change this matchup. Look out for early Knight of the Reliquary which can mess up with lands. Also have in mind DD combo.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_9315X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_9523X.cor

Jund
Favorable - Pernicious Deed wipe all board except Liliana - which can be Decay'ed. Never wait for Liliana if you have ticking Dark Confidant as target with Abrupt Decay (same in Junk).

Nic Fit
Very Favorable - you can't lose - they don't have answer for game ending, we can easily answer their (with Pernicous Deed) board in Bojuka Bog to Recurring Nightmare/punishing fire engine if they running it.

Goblins
Unfavorable since Krenko - very depends how fast you can develop deed, and how many wastelands they draw. You can seal ground with veteran but they also gain advantage by it.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_86092.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_86182.cor

MUD
Favorable MU - Pernicous Deed and Decay is very important - Killing early Metalworker, or Revoker needling Deed is the most important. Chump, fetch lands play titan - win.

Pox
Favorable MU - Veteran Explorer totally change this matchup. Only real thread is Liliana which can be decayed. All ramp react as a counterpunch vs Pox.

Affinity
Favorable MU - Pernicous Deed is really devestating here

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eplay_6799.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...eplay_6880.cor

Dark Depths Combo B/G
Unfavorable MU like most Loam based decks, anyway Karakas MD helps here, also Glimmer life gain is more important then ever, anyway G1 isn't easy like vs most combo

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_57478.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...play_57739.cor

6. Weak sides - building SB

Actually - 2015-10-21 running this package to blind meta:


2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg


Hero's Downfall is in testing, actually not bad.

Let's group them to packages against most strategies:

Anti-combo engine (storm):
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
4 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Gaddock Teeg

It's important to diverse your disruption plan so you can attack their plans from diffrent angles. This package have 3 ways to disrupt storm plan:
- Discard - your main plan
- Exctracting important part of the combo - your long way to vicotry (turn 3+)
- Pernament hate - Spheres and Gaddock Teeg from GSZ
- Bojuka to closing PIF route so discard will be more useful.

cards to board out:
- You can easy board out all decay's, some number of deeds should stay against EtW plan, and Dark Cofidant boost which is again quite popular.
- Eldrazi's also can be sideout titans are enough, with glimmerposts
- Karns
- Eye of Ugin
- Next would be some Titans/Vets. DON'T side out E.Witness.

1) Don't side out Eternal Witness - it's very useful also in this MU.
2) If your meta is Storm infested bring more discard to SB and Gaddock Teeg - I'm not a fan of him in this deck since he blocks GSZ, but it's still best hatebear to storm under GSZ (put on blind meta).

Aggressive tempo decks
2-4 Crop rotation depends - vs wasteland to doesn't lose tempo with wastelands
1 Glacial Chasm - not vs RUG/BUG decks, works well vs very aggresive decks like Burn or U/R
1 Wurmcoil Engin

Depends on scale of aggression you can replace Eldrazi's since both tempo decks can't deal with resolved titan.

Other cards specify vs unique combo decks:

GY hate - Reanimator and Dredge:
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Exctraction
1 Bojuka Bog

Note that also Karkas works here very good, add Duress and Memoricide and you should win it. IF your meta is more GY combo infested bring Surgical Exctration and Scavenging Ooze.

Elves
- Crop Rotation
- Glacial Chasm

I worked really long and hard to find solution to Elves, and this is it. It's fog like, turn by turn which should be enough to resolve Deed/Titan.

That's actually all, after Dig Though Time ban this deck again very well positioned in meta - no OmniShow which was very hard to beat (only Memoricide).

7. Modifications

Considered modifications MD:

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - As replacement for Karn Liberated - depends how many Deeds you running, how many MUDs is in your meta, and how many Needles / Revokers are (most of them will be named for Pernicious Deed.

Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - As replacement for Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, CA Ulamog - 1 v 3, Kozilek 1 v 5, but it's dependent since Kozilek draws cards, Ulamog answer to direct threads on table, Kozilek shuffle, Ulamog doesn't - so it's many may factors - best for you - test yourself what's better in your meta.

Cabal Coffers with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Alternative way to achieve big mana boost instead of Posts.

Coffers vs Posts

Titan Scenerio: you have 6 mana and you cast Titan:

Scenerio variants:
a) You have 1 Glimerpost in those 6:
if you pick 2 cloudposts you will get additional 6 mana.
b) You have 1 Urborg in those 6:
if you pick 2 Cabal Coffers you will get 8 swamps total, so each Coffers with give 6 mana so basically you will gain 12 mana total - big profit
c) You don't have any utility land:
if you pick 2 cloudpost you will get additonal 4 mana
if you pick Cabal Coffers and Urborg you will get additional 6 mana, so better.

Facts:
1) Overlay Coffers gives much more mana in scenerio with Titan.
2) Problem is that Coffers doesn't give mana with normal way, so draws with double coffers is auto-mull, You will run 5 lands which doesn't give mana from start, which mean you need think how to improve this aspect to decrease initial mana screw.
3) Coffers give mana when you control at least 3 swamps or 3 lands which one of them is Urborg - from this scenario you can count it as black filtr - all mana will be black.
4) 1 Wasteland can kill Coffers boost (Urborg dead, coffers give with half mixed swamp-forests 1 mana.
5) Conditioner Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is Legendary so basically you can start game with 2 or more.

So in conclusion worst initial mana, bigger ramp after turn 5+, more vulnerable to wasteland. I think it rather below to NO-Combo decks, which are slower then for example Elves, so it's not worth. Control build is better in my eyes vs current meta.

Interesting note that Titan + Coffers + Eye of Ugin + Emrakul was added as SB package to Dark Depths / Threspian's Stage Combo as alternative way to victory vs Miracles.

Considered modifications SB:

Natural Order - Proposed by apple - could work as 2 mana boost to fetch Titan on battlefield vs unfair fast combo decks, but still didn't assamble stable list with it.

Innocent Blood - Very good vs Tempo decks, can also trigger Veteran Explorer, was as a removal in early stage of the deck, then Abrupt Decay was added as replacement, but it's still good as 1 CMC removal vs turn 1 Delver or Shaman, can also kill DD/Stage token, if you survive 1 attack.

Dread of Night - very good SB material vs Death & Taxes, works also well vs Lingering Souls tokens and Monastery Mentor tokens.

Sadistic Sacrament - it's an old tech used in ANT mirrors, It fits here as 3 mana final answer vs them, only real restriction is mana used, since it required BBB it's mostly connected with veteran trigger, or tower.

Thespian's Stage - it's actually best answer vs opponets Dark Depths / Thespian's Stage combo. Trick is to use it in response to opponent combo out, or evn earlier if they played Dark Depths.

Living Wish - it adds consistency sacrificing speed and SB slots which isn't great on big tournament.

Last list tested with Wishes:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
4 Living Wish
//SB
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Crop Rotation
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Primeval Titan
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Cavern of Souls


Cards which was tested and doesn't fit in this deck (from my testing), with comments:

All is Dust - Deed is enough, can dodge most soft counters, can resolve under Gaddock Teeg, kill also manlands when animated, can be used in instant speed.

Vesuva - this deck has so thiny place to utility lands that it's just too much, you need mana from start, so not worth, 8 Posts are enough.

Liliana of the Veil - 1BB cost is quite restrict able, but it's no such a problem as Liliana abilities, you don't want to discard cards, you want every land in your hand, so self discarding isn't an option. Liliana here will be just a worst Diabolic Edict.

Expedition Map / Collective Voyage / Ancient Stirrings / Natural Selection / Sylvan Scrying - it's just a search engine, doesn't give CA, remember this deck is a control-combo, not strict combo like 12Post, your CA is your power.

Note about Natural Selection could draw a card to be a better green Ponder on instant :-), now it's just a index which can be used vs opponent. Tested this card and it was very very funny against Delver :-), but nothing more.

Thrun, the Last Troll - was in early stage of deck when I was more focused only vs Miracles, I found it's not enough to win (sooner or later they draw Terminus or EtA), so It was dropped.

Garruk, Primal Hunter - was best from all of them (Garruks) as CA and wincon, but after all was dropped due to not as optimal as GSZ / Titans, quite restrictive cost GGG, responded removal to this CA draws, wasn't great, also TNN just bitte most of Planswalkers, dropped.

Garruk Relentless - was bad - hard to flip doesn't give anything to plan until flipped - easy to kill, after it flips - it's a good planswalker but with a lot of creatures, not here.

Garruk Wildspeaker - was first Garruk tested in this deck, after all I found he dies to fast, and doesn't give enough profits on long range.

Candelabra of Tawnos - Cloudposts are finishing plan, this deck doesn't run so many cloudposts to gain enough advantage - it's fit to 12Post not here.

Sakura-Tribe Elder - was in early stage of this deck, but after all I found I more like always Veterans or Wooded Elves - mostly that I can use them to CA by Therapies which Sakura can't.

Viridian Emissary - Veteran Explorer is just much more powerful

Sylvan Library / Phyrexian Arena - was very long in early stage of deck but after Decay was printed I drop it, and focus to step-by-step CA in each card in deck. Also both cards doesn't synergy with Pernicous Deed.

Oblivion Sower - it is just too random 5/8 body isn't but as for fightning factor wurmcoil Engine is much, much better. I cast it three times, and get in sum 1 fetchland which was U/R - not worth running in Legacy. Good side was that with Eye of Ugin it cost 4 mana. So basically 4 mana 5/8 which can sometimes give, one land - still bad.

Chalice of the Void - this deck doesn't suffer too much from running it - specially against combo, Chalice for@0 can save you from turn 1-2 kills against ANT/TES, but it's not permanent solution vs them, each of storm decks can outplay Chalice on longer game.

External References:

- Nic Fit thread where a lot was discussed after oath of the Gatewatch print http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ic-Fit/page171
- Dark Depths using 8post/coffers Core to boost Miracle matchup - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Depths/page19
- 12 Post using Vets http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post921785

[Pdingo]

hei fatal

i will the test soon and post my list;)

nice treath;)

greets Pdingo

[Lemnear]

What about starting a thread once you have more content than a picture and the headline? If you worked on the deck the same way you did on this post (aka picking a headline like "Explorer + 12-Post-manabase" and THEN see how/if that develops), I fear this ends in a sea of laughs and facepalms

Edit: The combination of both ways of mana-acceleration is exceptional counterintuitive. It's like forcing Griselbrand into an Ad Nauseam deck and say "but ... Storm engines!"

[Fatal]

@Lemnear

Don't worry - I developed Maverick - and wrote a Primer about it, and know how to do it right, this deck is my next "pet" which is developed since almost year.

[Bobmans]

Nice concept. A while back i have been toying with a similar idea inspired on the McDarby veteran walkers and basicly mashed it up with a 12-post list. I got stuck on JUND colors and a clunky manabase with a lot of trouble getting access to black mana. Getting rid of red solves this obviously. It was kinda messy, but i liked having the following cards:
Through the Breach Although not a game finisher, dropping a Primetime with it basicly fetches 4 lands in the same turn. Giving you whatever you need dropping a spaghetti monster next turn. Or use it to drop Eldrazi to stabilize the board.
Sylvan Scrying I would suggest this one over Solemn Simulacrum since it fetches non-basic giving you acces to utility lands such as a Tower, Bog, Eye of Ugin.
Glacial Chasm Anti burn, but would require some way to recur it? First thing in mind is Life from the Loam... or something that can be fetched with GSZ like Tilling Treefolk. #clunky?

Anyway i will be following this list while being developed. Keep it up.

Edit: the early version of the list involved innocent blood and Punishing Fire to be able to control the board in the early game, but didn't work out anyway.

[Fatal]

Early lists contained some Life from Loam - but it was bad with Eldrazi triggers
Sylvan Scrying - tested - it doesn't ramp - only search, Aim is to speed up, with good MD and card selection you will get what you want key is to speed up.
Glacial Chasm - tested and was disappointed - much better works Wurmcoils which also works nice vs very fast aggro and BUG Tempo.
Tilling Treefolk - agree to clunky -tested

Each color gives some advantage but I'm almost sure that MD is limited to two colors, with only 15 source of color mana you can't handle more. I choose control board B/G and Explorer engine which is a key in early game.

[litenkatt]

Interesting!

One thought: Does it need 4x Primeval Titan? With 4 GSZ I feel like we can get away with less

[Lemnear]

So you think that 15 on-color manasources are enough to support the double color requirements Explorer + Therapy or Decay has? That's less initial mana than Storm has :/

I'm not convinced by the arguments to mash the decks up either. If you realize that Posts usually create enough life and mana to dominate the lategame, but the Explorer plan adds nothing against the actual problems these ramp-strategies have (namely combo) why add the Explorer suit at all? It's not that Therapy is a better card in these matchups than colorless options like Chalice

[Fatal]

@Lemnear - don't forget that running ramp - and can easy fetch missing color from Wood Elves or chumping Explorer - it does really well - specially when meta shift to decks which doesn't run white (swords to plowshares), Explorer is one of the most important part of this build - it gives early stabilization as well as chump fort.

@Titans are key part to winning the game - 4-of is really needed, I was testing any number of them (1-4) and always 4 was the best. GSZ always have more problems like spell pierce or Swang Song to face - Titans - only Force of Will and counterspells (which isn't to common). Also difference between 6 and 7 mana matters, sometimes its a turn.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear - don't forget that running ramp - and can easy fetch missing color from Wood Elves or chumping Explorer - it does really well - specially when meta shift to decks which doesn't run white (swords to plowshares), Explorer is one of the most important part of this build - it gives early stabilization as well as chump fort.

@Titans are key part to winning the game - 4-of is really needed, I was testing any number of them (1-4) and always 4 was the best. GSZ always have more problems like spell pierce or Swang Song to face - Titans - only Force of Will and counterspells (which isn't to common). Also difference between 6 and 7 mana matters, sometimes its a turn.

My point wasn't about fixing colors with Explorer or Wood Elves, it was about the chances to draw one of your 13 green manasources plus Explorer/GSZ to start. Even then you need either your opponent attacking into Explorer, not playing Plowshares or having a sac-outlet (which Therapy as such requires black). Explorer and GSZ as acceleration fullfil a similar role like Vesuva and Expedition Map would (chumpblock vs. lifegain by chaining Glimmerposts) but the later options are colorless instead of BG while the colored options are also conditional as mentioned above. I have my doubts that the combination of both manabases is any reliable for casting (and sacrificing) Explorer or to survive long enough to enter this decks lategame via Titans and Co.

[porcupinetreeman]

I see three problems with your deck.

1. Veteran Explorer can only grab basics.

2. Too many colorless lands to cast Cabal Therapy effectively.

3. Wasteland and Blood Moon Wreck you.

[konakonakona]

I see three problems with your deck.

1. Veteran Explorer can only grab basics.

2. Too many colorless lands to cast Cabal Therapy effectively.

3. Wasteland and Blood Moon Wreck you.

1. I don't see him mentioning that's how it works.

3. BUG delver and like every tier 1 deck does.

as for 2. I'd have to test to see if it's true though sometimes things are just known.

[Fatal]

Before judging mana base - test simple hands - really, I sacrifice a lot of time to testing to find proper configuration of lands - don't waste it.

About Blood Moon and Waste - how does 6 basics with 7 + 4 GSZ ways to fetch basics are worst then any other deck in Legacy against those ? I played a lot of games under Blood Moon and never had problems to found basics to destroy them via Abrupt Decay eot them use Cloudposts which was "disabled" for a while. For sure this deck has much more options to fight those 2 then standard 12Post which is almost defenseless vs Moon + REB.

You can also find me on Cockatrice quite often to test against.

[maharis]

I have been trying to find a way to jam Tooth & Nail/Emrakul/Xenagod in Modern and I actually think this might be a good Legacy shell for that combo. Lots of ramp + Crop Rotation for Boseiju (not to mention Therapy for FOW). I also really want to GSZ for Magus of the Candelabra.

[Fatal]

Losing to Karakas is not an option that's why I'm sceptical about T&N.

[Fatal]

Update Primer post ban also add new list. Wrote some words about SB.

[Barook]

Shouldn't Ugin be a consideration now?

Also, what about the new Ulamog?

[Fatal]

Tested Ugin - for sure it's very good - could be in Karn's slot, but from testing I found it isn't so universal as Karn, because:
- It doesn't blow out Colorless permanents - like Needle, Revoker or Lands which is sometimes very important
- It doesn't attack hand
- 1 mana is sometimes be-or not to be 8 vs 7 CMC.

Advantage for Ugin is covered by Pernicious Deed utility, I more like Deed since it's much faster. To understand it, just compare why I don't run anymore All is Dust.
For sure Ugin is perfect card for 12Post but in this deck we have similar utility which can be cast faster (can dodge Spell Pierces or other soft counters), few turns earlier.
But this is only my point of view - you can easily test which Karn replaced by Ugin.

About some new Eldrazi's:
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - It's a win more in my eyes, after some case studies.
about game ending bombs:
You need end game for sure when you cast Eldrazi, only real game ending Eldrazi is still Emrakul, putting more Eldrazi's will only blank your hand for whole game and doesn't give you a win - only CA. This deck have very fast ramp, so basically you jump your available mana each turn (depends on scenerio):
Turn 1 - 1 mana / colored/colorless
Turn 2 - 2 colored / 3 colorless
Turn 3 - 5 colored / 4 colorless and 1 color / 6 colorless
Turn 4 - 6 colored / 6 colorless and 1 colored
Turn 5 - 6 colored and 4 colorless / 10 colorless and 2 colored
Turn 6 - 6 colored and 12 colorless / 20 colorless and 2 colored - here game mostly ends.

Adding more Eldrazi's like Ulamog, doesn't end game (sure it can blowing up 2 key permanents is huge with 10/10 indestructible body), question is when you want to cast it and why this is better then next Titan which give you enough mana for a unbreakable win, Titan is good in turn 4, same as turn 5, he can also give you life. When legacy would be more permanent combo focused I for sure would run it (Ulamog), now it's not needed.

So probably next question is why I run Kozilek, Butcher of Truth as second Eldrazi - it draws cards which could be GSZ or Titans, along with good body and 12/12 which can give me 11 life (StP). Let's see your mana scenerio, after you have 6 mana and you cast Titan you search for cloudpost and Eye (most time - statistical you will have already even 1 post on table glimmer/cloud) so your available mana will be 8 + Eye, this mean you can search and cast Eldrazi for 10 mana (even if you don't draw anything). Kozilek fit to your strategy - draw more Titans and answers, sure new Ulamog could be in this slot, my testing was probably to short to answer definitely to that question - just keep in mind CA if opponent counter your Eldrazi it's 1 for 3 for Ulamog, and 1 for 5 in case of Kozilek - maybe that's why I like it more, also shuffling effect is very important - you can do it right away next turn thanks to Eye of Ugin.

Interesting creature to test is probably Oblivion Sower it little looks like Colorless Titan. I'm little skeptical about it since Legacy runs a lot of fetchlands and random factor isn't my favorite. Could work as Titan 9, 10. Interesting note it works very well vs Deathrite Shaman (so quite a lot of decks) 4 lands is quite nice, but most of them will be colorless for us.
This - target opponent makes this card much less powerful. I give a spin in number of 2 (out Kozilek and Eternal Witness just for tests - probably Eternal Witness needed to stay, but I don't want to test 2 months so 2-of in tests).

[Fatal]

Update:

Added about 30 replays for cockatrice, not all are won (I also make mistakes ^^), those are best to watch since we learn what was wrong)- but they show how deck works vs many decks, I will be adding more replays to cover all Tier decks.

Oblivion Sower is mostly useless dropped added to not fit to deck section.

[apple713]

Id highly advocate the use of a natural order to steal some games and give you game against some combo decks.