After a discussion, I was made aware of the following:
I'm a bit confused about this though and would like some further information. Is a cut good enough? What happens if a player doesn't want to do anything to their opponent's deck? What are the penalties for this?At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents’ decks after
their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
One of the reasons I'm thinking about selling my foils is other people shuffling my deck is like nails on a chalk board to me.
At GP Minneapolis, lots of players weren't shuffling (myself included) and were just doing normal cuts. This happened while judges were watching and they never said a word. I get the reasoning behind it, but forced shuffling causes the games to drag. Think about how many times Pod has to search their library, then shuffle, then opponent shuffle... those games would likely go to time more often than if a cut is agreed upon.
I've never run into any issues with it either. From speaking with judges about it, they always told me you'll never actually get in trouble for it since the only person not shuffling can hurt is yourself.
In the Legacy community, I've also found opponents to be very respectful when shuffling my decks. I think most people realize that we're all playing with valuable cards and no one wants to be the douchebag who riffle shuffles someone else's deck.
I always thought cuts basically = shuffling in regards to this rule.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2Originally Posted by nedleeds
Interestingly, shuffling is not really defined unless you see the DCI rules for cutting the deck.
As it stands, a three-pile cut or a second cut would apparently be considered a shuffle. Neither the DCI rules nor the MtG Comp Rules expound on the strict definition of shuffling more than this single line.
Some people get all goofy about this due to the investment aspects of Magic or their own weird "i donwanna touch you" stuff. To avoid any hassle if you are such a person, I'd encourage you to talk to the Head Judge.
As for the actual application of the shuffling requirements, as follows:
21. Shuffling
Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen. Regardless of the method used to shuffle, players� decks must be sufficiently randomized. Each time players shuffle their deck, they must present their deck to their opponent for additional shuffling and/or cutting. Players may request to have a Judge shuffle their cards rather than pass that duty to their opponent, this request will be honored at a Judge�s discretion. By presenting their decks to their opponents, players are stating that their decks are correct, legal, and sufficiently randomized.
After decks are presented and accepted, any player who does not believe his or her opponent has made a reasonable effort to sufficiently randomize his or her deck must notify a Judge. The Head Judge has final authority to determine whether a deck has been sufficiently randomized. The Head Judge also has the authority to determine if a player has used reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck. If the Head Judge believes that either the deck has not been sufficiently randomized or that a player has not made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the player will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.
At Competitive and Professional level events players must always shuffle their opponents� decks at the beginning of games. The Head Judge can mandate the shuffling of opponents� decks at Regular Level Events as long as he or she announces this at the beginning of the tournament. If a shuffling effect takes place during gameplay, players may shuffle and must cut their opponents� decks after the shuffling effect is completed.
Once players shuffle and/or cut their opponents� decks, the cards are returned to their original owners. If the opponent has shuffled the player�s deck, that player may make one final cut.
So basically, pile shuffle your opponent's deck every time he fetches a land and then cut their foils to the bottom because they're stiffer than usual cards?
The language about shuffling is in the tournament rules to attempt to get players to take it seriously; it's not enforced. Really though, you should at minimum be shuffling your opponent at the beginning of games. The more people that shuffle, the less shuffle cheaters can get away with. During games, Scarne cut (middle moved to top) at minimum, ideally shuffle.
A Scarne cut is still a cut per the rule. Also note that there's a difference betweeen shuffling and randomization, which are defined separately. The line you quoted is actually an artifact from back in the stone age when you were only allowed to cut your opponent's deck, not shuffle.As it stands, a three-pile cut or a second cut would apparently be considered a shuffle. Neither the DCI rules nor the MtG Comp Rules expound on the strict definition of shuffling more than this single line.
Piling is not shuffling. You still need to do real shuffling if you pile.So basically, pile shuffle your opponent's deck every time he fetches a land and then cut their foils to the bottom because they're stiffer than usual cards?
Piling is nice for counting decks though. I used to get probably half a game win per event from counting decks.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Don't the rules for what constitutes a cut say that this is, in fact, considered shuffling?
Sorry, I meant not randomization.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So, if piling is not shuffling, what IS shuffling? Do I get away with a pile shuffle leaving foils in one pile, then one really clunky overhand shuffle, returning the deck back to guy saying "properly randomized, enjoy your foils"? I know it's technically wrong (it wasn't randomized) and both morally and rules-wise bad (I cheated), but does it fullfill the semantics of word "shuffle"?
I thought the rules had been changed about getting to cut after your opponent has shuffled your library?
Last edited by Ace/Homebrew; 08-08-2014 at 08:52 PM. Reason: Turns out I was actually asking a question!
The cut did get removed, years ago if I recall. He must've been quoting a pretty old version of the rules.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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