I have been a huge fan of playingdecks ever since I first picked up the game during Legions. When I started playing again more seriously right before the release of Zendikar, I wanted to play Jund minus the
. All my friends back then kept telling me to splash red, but I stuck to my colors. Now, years later, I am deeply involved with Legacy and it is easily my favorite format, there are a number of base G/B decks like Jund, Junk, BUG control, Shardless BUG, and BUG Delver. However, I am a stubborn purest and refuse to splash for a third color. But because of this, my deck has a few weaknesses that I believe I have tried my hardest to minimize.
Each third color added can greatly affect the outcome of certain matches depending on the metagame. For instance,adds Swords to Plowshares, mostly, while supplying some sideboard creatures who really hate combo. Knight of the Reliquary is pretty good, too, but she is just not my style. Lastly,
adds above all else, BRAINSTORM and counters. However, Brainstorm is not the end all be all of any match-up. I have won many matches where my opponent Brainstorms 3-4 times in each game and still cannot secure the win.
As I have searched the web for forums for a newer version of the Rock archetype, post-RTR, no one has given a pure Golgari colored deck a revision. So, I am hoping this will act as one, as well as a constructive criticism of my deck of choice.
I have toyed around with this deck since Scars of Mirrodin Block and it has gone through many editions. Now, through much experience in the Legacy format, I have what I believe to be the best 75 for this archetype in the modern world of Legacy. Forgive me in advance as I am unfamiliar with how to link a decklist, however, it's not like most of you don't have a google search bar at the top of your browser.
Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Scavenging Ooze
Spells: 24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Disfigure
3 Living Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
Lands: 20
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Treetop Village
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard: 15
1 The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ashen Rider
1 Darkheart Sliver (Master of the Wild Hunt)
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Hymn to Tourachs
Deck Strategy:
The older Rock decks were a bit more controlling utilizing discard in the early game. Once the opponent rushed out as many threats as possible to prevent them from being discarded the Rock player then slams a Pernicious Deed and sweeps the board leaving the opponent with little cards in hand and very little board presence. This would be the optimal time to play the one or two creatures that take over the game. Discard is a very general way of handling many strategies. However, many decks have become more resilient to discard with each new set, especially Innistrad and RTR. Also in recent years, many new creatures and lands were printed to counter other abusive strategies. This deck utilizes some of those creatures and lands without diluting the sideboard with narrow answers to bad match-ups while giving a better chance to win game one against said bad match-ups.
This version of the Rock plays less control and more mid-range. It can get an early start with Deathrite Shaman if on the play and be proactive about fortifying the battlefield. It can also hang back and play very defensively until it deals with all the opponent's threats. The biggest advantage of this deck is that it is very willing to sacrifice resources to clear an enemy's board. Instead of an opponent overextending in fear of his threats being discarded, this deck aims to force an opponent to overextend while you only have a DRS and a Tarmogoyf on the field. With so many spot removal cards, the deck can 1-for-1 an opposing creature to deal early points of damage with any creature. The opponent plays more and more threats each turn in hopes that you run out of spot removal. Then it slams the Pernicious Deed, wipes the board, and plays another amazing creature next turn leaving your opponent at the mercy of his top-deck.
Individual card analysis:
Deathrite Shaman - The reason this deck works so well. Early game mana dork, mid-game life gain, late-game Grim Lavamancer. Sometime, against some decks, you want a turn 2 Deed or Maelstrom Pulse. Other times, it may eat a removal spell from the opponent's hand in fear of a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil. Which is fine because this usually means your Dark Confidant or Goyf will go on living longer. A fewer amount of time it will actually produce a turn 2 Liliana which goes on to destroy the opponent's dreams. Between Dark Confidants, fetch lands, and the occasional drawing extra cards off of Sylvan Library, the life gain actually matter. Against many decks in the meta of 2014, it's not about how fast you can win, but rather how long can you stay alive to achieve the win. DRS is one of the prime vehicles to victory in many decks, not much different here.
Tarmogoyf - The entire format is based around this creature. He is in the colors and is a very cheap and efficient beater or blocker. What else needs to be said of him. Oh, yeah, we play enchantments that make him bigger!
Dark Confidant - A bear that draws extra cards at the expense of life. All spells are 3 or less, so he never deals more than a lightning bolt's worth of damage, and when he does, it's worth it!
Scavenging Ooze - Once said to be the bane of Tarmogoyf's existence, or at least just a new Tarmogoyf all together, Scooze has proven his placement in this deck time and again! He has so many usages, mainly against graveyard based decks. He is the quintessential rock creature - kill a creature, eat it and make him more powerful, beat face! I have used him to weaken Knight of the Reliquaries, hose dredge decks, kill opposing Tarmogoyfs, gain precious life back against aggro and burn decks, the list goes on and on. Plus, he's the most ideal creature to play after deeding. I have loved playing him in this deck and he has never truly been a let-down.
Thoughtseize - The modern format of this deck came out about a year ago, but I've been playing this at my LGS since before that. I have cut, or never bothered with so many, one drops. There has to be a reason why I want to play a spell on turn one. DRS is definitely always the most optimal play. But when I don't have one, a targeted discard spell will do. So I use the best. Thoughtseize allows my to uncover what deck my opponent is playing and what my strategy will be from here on in, while also getting rid of a threat that I don't want to or can't deal with, like Mirran Crusader or True- Name Nemesis. Some people argue that due to the loss of life, that Inquisition of Kozelek is better. While most things in Legacy as CMC< 4, the real threats are at least 4 or much more. Here's a short list: JTMS, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Kozelek, Karn Liberated, and the almighty Kthulu himself, Emrakrul. Thoughtseize can get those on turn one, the loss of life is more than worth it. Again, this deck doesn't mind sacrificing small amounts of resources if it means winning in the long run.
Abrupt Decay - Kills almost all types of threats. Extremely versatile card. This deck strives for versatility, so this is a no-brainer. Also, Decaying a combo player's Lion's Eyed Diamond while another spell is on the stack is such a sweet victory.
Disfigure - This deck needs to deal with turn one creatures like Goblin Guide, Mother of Ruins, opposing DRS, Noble Hierarch, and such while being a cheap spell that kills most creatures in the format. You can trick an opponent to block your goyf with there's only to Disfigure it later in the turn. You can also target a Knight of the Reliquary before Wishing for a Bojuka Bog to empty the opponent's yard. This is usually the Lightning Bolt/STP slot for Jund/Junk, respectively. It's not as good as the other, I'll admit, but it serves it's purpose very well, in fact.
Pernicious Deed - ALL my friends tell me to stop playing this card or at least cut the number or move it to the side. Every time I listen to them, I do terribly. Deed really is the backbone of this deck. Some decks are faster than you, this deals with it. Others have more raw card advantage than you, this deals with it. While, still, others fill up the board with many different things it's difficult to know what to use your Abrupt Decay on, this alleviates the predicament and deals with everything at once. Sometimes, yes, you will have to sacrifice your whole board, but take notice what the opponent is left with and how many cards are in his hand. Notice the amount of dread and discouragement on his face. Meanwhile, you planned for this outcome, and it was well worth it.
Also consider the current metagame. D&T, merfolk, elves, goblins, all scoop to this card. Many control decks are using True-Name, but Deed can deal with it. D&T uses Mirran Crusader. Rock should auto scoop to that card, instead, good old deed deals with that guy and all the equipment and Aether Vials to boot. Despite what others have told me, Pernicious Deed is an amazing card and has it's usages in roughly 85% of the current meta, not to mention random rouge decks like Enchantress.
Living Wish - During one of my LGS weekly Legacy tourneys, I was talking to some one who had a slightly different idea of the same archetype. However, he was a non-purest who added white. He told me he used to run Living Wishes to play bigger creatures out of the side, but wouldn't be punished to harshly if revealed with Dark Confidant. I took this idea and ran with it. I thought, why use just big creatures? Why not have a tool box with hate cards that can come in game one against most of the unfair or unfavorable match-ups? Maverick and Bant decks use Green Sun Zenith main board to get one-ofs in post-sideboard games. My qualms with GSZ is that it takes up valuable card slots and is only good if you have the creature in the deck. But Wish lets me get a land if I missed a drop or one of my lands was destroyed by Wasteland. Sure, I may have to pay an additional 2 for Wish rather than just 1 for GSZ, but the fact that I can get whatever I need when I need it gives me a better chance game one which is more than worth it. I have tweaked with the tools for a while now and waited for Reclamation Sage to become legal. I believe I have the most optimal creatures and lands for the current meta.
Liliana of the Veil - The only other planeswalker good enough to be played in any format it is legal in. She is great for any kind of grindy, attrition deck like this one. She is all around great against many played strategies. Crushes control like Miracles and Stoneblade-esque decks. Gets rid of reanimated or show and tell creatures, or the hard to deal with creatures mentioned above. In many cases she acts as a 2-for-1 if not better.
Maelstrom Pulse - Because this deck lacks access to Bolt and Pyroblast, it needs a way to outright kill JTMS, as well, as other pesky things Decay can't touch. Hitting a Batterskull with it while the opponent is tapped out is rather awesome as well. These can also be used as Deed 5 and 6 against goblin tokens from combo players who are too afraid of discard and just want to combo out faster even if it means it will take longer to win. They can also destroy a 2 of a kind or more, which may be devastating to the opposition. Pulse is just a nice versatile card that hardly is unwelcome.
Sylvan Library - Sometimes playing this on turn 2 will just win the game. Also amazing after deeding and being able to mimic Sensei's Divining Top for free every turn is awesome. If you have extra life and just want to dominate your opponent, it let's you draw extra cards. Library + Confidant can easily spell defeat for whoever sits across from you.
The lands are pretty basic to what one would expect. I only play 20 because I don't use Brainstorm and I want to maximize my draws. Wasteland is more for special lands rather than just duals and attempting to color screw an opponent. That's why I only use 3 and in the 4th slot I use Volrath's Stronghold. Stronghold allows me to get back creatures after deeding them or being countered. I consider it a man land like Treetop Village because of this, but if it falls victim to wasteland, at least my opponent isn't destroying a dual land. I once played the same Scooze 3 times only for it to be countered each turn, once it resolved though, I won the game.
Sideboard:
The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale - This land is good against some strategies. Wishing for this after Empty the Warrens flood the board can win you the game on the spot. Tabernacle also slows down elf combo, just make sure you can wasteland the Gaea's Cradle. There are a few other strategies where this can be helpful like D&T and Goblins, but against those decks, the timing is key whether or not it helps or hurts.
Karakas - Bouncing legendary creatures can be helpful especially if they were cheated into play or reanimated. It can also be decent against D&T to bounce Thalia instead of paying 1 more for each non-creature spell, you only have to tap one land when you have multiple spells to play.
Bojuka Bog - This land can hose any graveyard importance to your opponent. Combine this with Scooze and DRS, dredge will learn to fear this deck, and that's a feat in and of itself.
Reclamation Sage - The better version of Viridian Shaman who can kill annoying equipment as well as annoying enchantments like Leyline of Sanctity and Sneak Attack. Auto-include for any tool box with access to green.
Ashen Rider - This and Karakas are the only non-pure Golgari cards in the deck, but they are absolutely necessary. Both of these are aimed at Show & Tell decks. I do thinkcreatures should have similar abilities to the Rider, just like how I believe Thalia should have been green and Spirit of the Labyrinth should have been black. But whatever... If your opponent goes turn 1 island, or island ponder/ preordain, he is most likely on the Show and Tell plan. It would not be wrong to play a wish on turn 2 and reveal the Rider. This means your opponent now has to keep digging until he finds duplicates of the combo pieces. You should be given enough time to apply board pressure and bring his life total down to a point where even if he does resolve 2 S&Ts it's worthless.
Darkheart Sliver (Master of the Wild Hunt) - The Master is my favorite creature of all time. The quintessential green creature. He makes tokens and uses them to fight opposing threats. Very easy to win with him after deeding. However, mono red burn and
Toxic Deluge - Some like Golgari Charm more for the versatility, though, even with 3 modes, I think it is rather narrow. Deluge offers me the ability to kill everything if needed, or just my opponent's creatures. I can pay any amount of life and no matter how big the creatures are, I can get rid of them. Deluge serves as a functional 5th deed. I was once up against a Mirran Crusader with a loaded Jitte, I Deluged for all but 1 life just to get rid of it and I came back and won the game. Against some deck you need a 5th deed to stay ahead, among them D&T and tribal decks.
Krosan Grip - Personally I would prefer to run Nature's Claim for the one mana to easily kill a Batterskull or Leyline of Sanctity, but Miracles make it necessary to destroy its lock pieces with uncounterable spells. Grip + Decay gives it a hard time to stabilize while leaving Deed out ready to sacrifice for 0 to destroy the angel tokens can save your Pulses for JTMS.
Chalice of the Void - One point in time, I was splashing white for Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist, however, my mana-base became shaky, so I purged the white. However, I noticed how insane Thalia was against combo, so in her place I put in Thorn of Amethyst. This still proved great for slowing down all the combo decks, except elves. However, all those decks are seriously effected by Chalice of the Void on 1, as is Delver decks and burn. This has worked for me so well that I was thinking about squeezing in a 4th, but I decided against it.
Hymn to Tourach - I don't want to abandon the idea of discard all together as it still has its uses. Usually, I prefer Duress because I want more turn 1 discard against combo decks. Although, against those, I will be Chalicing for 1 and I don't want my cards to counteract themselves. So, by default, Hymn becomes the obvious choice.
Please let me know of any constructive criticism you may have or any questions regarding my card choicage.
Thanks!
there is no reason to not splash ether red for bolt> disfigure and bloodbraid elf ; white sword or blue brainstorm/agent/vision etc ...
The only reason might be blood moon but bug shardless play now some basics and don't care any longer.
Living wish is too slow in the format so is pernicious deed toxic deluge might be ok.
You have no anwser to jace yeah only 2 pulse ; terminus + jace is gg.
You don't play enough discard for combo. I mean 4 seize is way too few to get there.
This deck should be in new and developpment, and I expect it to stay there.
There are several odd things about your list. 4 Scooze seems bad, as you don't really want to slam it down turn 2 against most decks, it also doesn't play very well in multiples. I would think 2 would probably be a right number possibly 3 but definitely not 4.
Living wish seems really slow, if you want a a land tutor package, then playing some deck that can afford crop rotation seems better and if you want a creature tutor package green sun zenith is better. Green sun also allows to cash a slow zenith in for a mana dork so in situations where it's bad it often winds up being fine. And reveals to dark confidant for just 1
P-deed is a good card in a deck that can fully utilize it, here it seems awkward as it's truly symmetrical, especially given your low cmc creatures.
Given what you're trying to accomplish I think nic-fit is a thread you might want to look into. You gain cabal therapy and more discard in general, bigger creatures and an ability to p-deed for value. While they normally splash a color, it seems very playable in just green black.
Also why is this in established?
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
If you're really such a purist and wanna stay in two colors only, then rest asured you're not the only one in the world. Sadly, my love is GW and it's unusable in today's meta, unless one loves to die to any LED.dec in existence...
For straight BG I see some choices
First there is your traditional Rock, which I don't think is built optimally, e.g. lack of discard and too many SCoozes (unless your metagame needs such an approach).
Then there's a choice of list that uses Living wish much more, and it's quite obvious where I'm heading, Hexmage-Depths combo.
You may even go as far as bulding a GB LD/Rock/combo hybrid a friend of mine used, with Grim Discovery, Tarmogoyf, Sinkhole, Life from the Loam, Vampire Hexmage, Dark Depths, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Wasteland, etc. Pretty brutal deck. It could either control the game with discard and removal and simply beat with Goyfs, or it may switch into a combo, or there were some silver bullets out of side (like Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog, Loaming Shaman, Ghost Quarter or whatever), with a backup plan of strong LD suite. He built it before DRS, so now you need to a) incorporate your own and b) get rid of the opposing ones to make your Grim Discovery be at least somehow useful.
[cards*]Tarmogoyf[/cards*]
Remove the asterisk and you got it.
20 lands is too low with no cantrips. I get blown out of tourneys now and then to bad land draws with 22 lands and 3 Sensei's Divining Tops. The list you have posted will be strong in about half the tourneys and absolutely blown out to matchups or bad draws in the other half. Casting cost of your average spell doesn't even matter much at that point.
The other argument I'd make is that for a Golgari Legacy two color list Hymn to Tourach is almost mandatory unless you are making the quixotic landkill attempt. There's no spell you can resolve on turn 2 that is more devastating to most opponents than Hymn.
The thing to remember about turn 2 Hymn is that your opponent kept his opening hand because he liked the cards in it and how they fit into his game plan. Even on the draw you are taking 2 good cards out of his hand or forcing him to either give up tempo by Dazing, give up 2 blue spells by Forcing or use Brainstorm earlier than he ideally would have chosen to.
This is a general reply to everyone who has posted. I thank you all for taking the time to write your comments and concerns.
The reason I decided to post this in this section was because after reading the requirements, I felt this was the best place to post. Though this deck has not had any articles written about it nor has it had any amazing finishers at a huge tournament doesn't mean it's not a deck that some one has built and calibrated to meet the current meta. As far as I can tell by reading new legacy articles, I am the only one playing this deck. I don't go to too many big tournaments for legacy and I have altered the list many times when I have gone to larger tournaments. I listened to my friends' opinions how to modify the deck for better results and it performs sub-optimally. This has taught me to not take their opinions to heart, or anyone's for that matter. After all, I am the one piloting the deck and it matters how I am comfortable about playing it. Keep in mind, decks like Maverick were once in the same position as mine until some one took down a tournament with it. Then everyone started playing it. The term "a good deck" really refers to how others can obtain the cards and understand the strategy to pilot it optimally. At the time, most of Maverick's manabase was cheap and all of it's spells and creatures were cheap as well, or at least easily obtainable because they were printed or reprinted within the past 5 years. The cards were easy for new players in legacy to obtain and the strategy was very straight forward. This led to many people playing the deck and forming a larger fraction of the metagame. However, when the mass population saw it's flaws, it became unpopular to play.
My deck is not as straight forward and takes "thinking outside the box" to understand which plays are optimal and which aren't. So, before anyone else continues to bash the deck, please take this into consideration. While most decks have a clear and concise way to win the game, this one doesn't so much. This deck tries more to exploit the weaknesses of each opposing deck and then win by attacking with creatures. Most decks have an A plan and a B plan to win the game. This deck can successfully combat both plans while still being able to win.
As for the number of lands I play, I try to keep it down because I am not playing cantrips. I want my draws to be active. When I first built the deck, I started with 23 lands. Overtime, I began taking out land one at a time because I continually got manaflooded and drew into no answers or creatures. However, with DRS, Confidant, and Sylvan Library, I am able to stay on par with my opponent's land drops. This deck does not need very many lands to operate. It can play very close to the chest and sometimes with it's back to the wall. If I still have 4 lands after trading Wastelands and stifled fetches, I consider the deck to be flooding out. Also, with Top, you have to sink mana into it turn after turn, that's why I prefer Sylvan Library. I can get raw card advantage from it or just card choicage and I don't have to keep reinvesting my mana into it.
I am a big fan of Loam Pox as well, but the meta isn't the best for it at the moment, so I switched back to this. I know a lot of people like the HEX/Depths combo with Living Wish, but I find it clunky since I have to run lands that don't tap for mana and another that helps my opponent's mana base so that I can tap Depths for mana. Sure, it can steal a win from time to time, but it's not consistent enough to depend on.
Scooze is great, he is never bad by himself. He can come down early to block attackers if need be, sometimes he has a price on his head if he interrupts a specific strategy, and he is very useful. Also against control he can just start attacking for 2 a turn. If you are conservative with how many creatures he eats, Scooze is fine in multiples. There's hardly ever a reason he needs to be bigger than a 5/5. Against bigger Goyfs, he can just exile whatever is making it bigger. Scooze is great against so many strategies, that playing the full 4 is worth it.
While Hymn is a quintessential 2-for-1, it is just not as good as it used to be. Most decks that play the card only run 2 on the main. If Scooze is bad in multiples, hymn is horrendous if they aren't in your opening hand. Hymn is usually a dead card late game, as well. This is why I like Wish. Early in the game, if I mulligan, or if I just need another land, worse case scenario it's a rampant growth that also exiles my opponent's graveyard. Later in the game it lets me tutor for any creature. I have severely tested it, and I have concluded that it is not too slow for legacy. It can even prevent other deck from winning too fast. I only run 3 to ensure it is not clunky while showing up often enough to have when I need it.
As for Crop Rotation, same problem as GSZ. I have to have that card take up a slot on my main, then I have to sacrifice a mana producing land for a non mana producing land most of the time. While this is fine in Loam Pox decks I have played, CroRo is terrible in this deck with only 20 lands. Living Wish fills both roles of GSZ and CroRo in one card and doesn't require valuable space in my main deck to be good.
The problem with fair decks is that they loose game one very often against degenerate combo decks. Wish helps to prevent some of this, but not all. Some is always better than none, though. Against any storm deck, Death Rock will loose 90% of game ones. But against Show and Tell decks, Wish provides a way to turn an uphill battle into a landslide in your favor in game one. If I expected to Wish for Thalia or Canonist or Gaddok Teeg against combo, you all would be correct to say that Wish is too slow. But I'm not. I haven't ditched Hymn completely, either.
Taking one specific card out of a combo player's hand can hurt more than two cards at random. This is why discard is not my planned route to victory against storm decks. If I see a hand full of Lotus Pedals and an LED after a thoughtseize, I will cast a Chalice of the Void for 0 to slow him down, and take either the best cantrip or a tutor. If I see rituals and cantrips, I'll wait for the next turn to place the Chalice on 1. I don't want any other discard I draw to be dead, so Hymn is the best of the available options. Also, Hymn allows me to keep a hand full of creatures to apply pressure as a last ditch effort. At the moment, storm decks aren't as widely played as they used to be, so the need for main board mass hand disruption is down.
Nic-Fit seems very boring for me to play. Plus, I've ran over it with this deck a few times and seen many other tier 1 decks trump it.
On paper, Miracles may look to have the advantage in the match-up, but I have wrecked that deck so many times. I have played against players who know the strategy of it like the back of their hands and I still come up on top. Same situation adrieng mentioned. Miracles terminus-ed while having a JTMS on the field. My friend sees this and walks away because he thinks the game is over for me. He comes back while we are de-sideboarding and asks how badly did I lose. I looked at him strangely and said, I did not lose, what are you talking about? I have played against it so many times, I can predict my opponent's plans.
Being able to win against less played decks is important for larger tournaments where you don't just see the top 3 decks of the format. This is legacy after all. People play it to get away from the stagnant metagames of standard and modern. People will play whatever they want. Some like to play painter's stone with 8 blood moons. To be able to have at least a shot in the dark against them, basic lands are necessary. The difference in playing basics or not could be the difference of top 8ing and top 32ing. To add a third color means to loose basic lands while running more, in general, thus having less spells. It also tends to be more susceptible to wasteland. Almost every game that I begin with a fetch land on turn 1, I will crack it for a basic. Because I play little lands, I want to be sure that the first few I play stick around.
This deck can display just how much one knows about the legacy format. Because sometimes, you won't have enough mana to do 2 things, like play a creature and a removal spell, you really have to be able to think ahead and understand by what means your opponent plans on winning. Selecting the right choices will lead to victory while making the wrong decision will cost you the match. To do this for over 20 deck currently being played is no easy feat. For me, the thrill of playing this deck is the do or die decision making. Choosing which card to take with thoughtseize; willing to take a risk my opponent doesn't have a removal spell or leaving my mana open telegraphing that I have a removal spell. Death Rock is truly a "skill-intensive Magic" deck. Something that has been absent in many formats for a while now.
No, you're not and Scavenging Ooze is a Grizzly Bears here.
I'm all for innovation and "thinking outside the box". Hell, right now I'm trying to force Panglacial Wurm and at the last three SCGs I did similar stuff with decent results, but eventually you have to suck it up and understand that some choices that are taken for granted are done so for very good reasons.
That being said, I wouldnt even consider this "innovation". It's literally an Extended Rock deck gone horribly, horribly wrong. I have no idea why this thread is still here. I was hesitating posting in hopes that it'd naturally fade, but clearly it's not going away. Take it away, oglaf!
http://media.oglaf.com/comic/bilge.jpg
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Thank you for the oglaf.
Wow, I've never realized everyone here is so negative. I never read too much on this site before, but I'd thought it would be a better place to post than mtgsalvation because this site is for legacy enthusiasts. I'd think those playing in a format comprised of a larger card pool would be more open to ideas than the traditional streamlined route to winning.
I like how someone can say that the deck cannot keep up with the necessary land drops without even playing the deck. You probably haven't gold fished it, much less ran it through the gauntlet like I have. So don't just jump to conclusions.
Also, Scooze is almost never just a grizzly bear. For instance, I'll play it turn 2 against RUG Delver just to draw out a bolt because it contradicts everything that deck wants to do. It gains life, and any incremental life gain can mean defeat for that deck. Scooze also exiles its graveyard making Nimble Mongoose into a petty blocker. Scooze can also shrink opposing goyfs in all match-ups, but here is much worse because the only creature I have to aim an Abrupt Decay at is Delver. Once Scooze is a 4/4, RUG just can't win. And in any match-up, like Miracles, where Scooze is just a grizzly bear, he is still better than Tarmogoyf because Miracles play Rest In Peace. So, what's better, a 0/1 for 2 or a 2/2 for 2?
If this thread bothers you, I could care less. I love how critical you all can be without doing your own research and deck building and take only what pro's do and say as truth. Unless you truly want to engage in a serious and constructive conversation about revitalizing Rock in the current legacy meta-game, don't bother posting. Negative comments will only result in me promoting this more, here and elsewhere.
Argh, me matey! We're not negative without reason. You're just overly zealous about this thing and posted it in the wrong area. We don't need to sleeve something up and play an unnecessary amount of games with the deck just to tell that this that or the other thing is dumb. Direct comparisons can easily be made between this deck and more successful (or less successful) decks, and and you're hardly the first one to experiment with things like 4xScavenging Ooze.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
People are saying a bit impolitely that the deck doesn't seem to comply with the following requirement from the established decks section:
Established Decks
For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested.
If you experience that 20 lands, no wastelands, is working well then stick to it. If four oozes are great for you, keep playing them. Come back with some tournament reports and maybe then at some point it will be moved back to the established decks section. FWIW I'd like to read more about it anyway...
I didn't mean for this to be a troll thread. I'm actually pretty serious about the deck and I believe a revitalization of it is very possible given all the goodies it has gotten since Innistrad and RTR. I thought people here who play legacy would be more open minded about it due largely to the fact that Legacy is comprised of many rouge decks. While some are overly publicized and endorsed by pros, much of the format is still very unpredictable. Almost every popular and replicated deck in the format was once rouge. A few examples: RUG Delver is very different from the well-known Canadian Threshold deck it evolved out of. When Delver was spoiled, everyone knew it would be a staple in legacy, but much tinkering was done before it became the staple it is now. But when it was applied to the threshold deck, people didn't stop tinkering with it. RUG Delver has spawned other Delver decks in American and BUG colors. It has also dropped a whole color identity and to being straight
What I'm trying to convey is that a narrow mindset never brews creativity.
And creativity isn't worth a damn if it has no backing. If you wanted to put Pernicious Deed in a deck and laugh behind a wall of planeswalkers, that's a concept I could get behind. It's actually something I'm working on right now. But you just kinda shoved those 4xDeeds and are groaning "get theeere" at the deck in a slightly erotic and mostly creepy fashion. Do you know why you play Tarmogoyfs? Do you know why many decks opt to not run four Abrupt Decays? Why you're running three Wastelands? Why most decks disdain Maelstrom Pulse? Why most decks run a minority of Deeds? Why you only use two Lilianas? Why Wishes are absent from fair decks? Why you're running Disfigure? Why you're not running Hymn to Tourachs? Why you're not running Inquisiton of Kozileks? Why you're not Junk? Why you're not Jund? Why you're not BUG?
You say you've been polishing this deck for four years, but your list says that you have learned nothing in those four years. Whether that's through stubborn belligerence or ignorance is irrelevant. The end result is that you're stifling your own creativity. This isn't me trying to be a dick. It's me stating the honest truth.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
I think this deck is pretty reasonable for a straight GB build.
As I see it, the problems stem more from how the OP barged into the Established section. Nobody is going to give a brand-new poster that much esteem unless the person is a pro or has a track record of success with the deck. What vin666 should have done is posted his list in the New and Developmental section, discussed his recent placings at tournaments (preferably high-finish placings), and then outlined why straight GB was a desirable metagame call.
The card-choice discussion is detailed, but what's missing is the reasoning behind sticking to two colors, other than just the random biases that appear at the top of the post: "When I started playing again more seriously right before the release of Zendikar, I wanted to play Jund minus the R. All my friends back then kept telling me to splash red, but I stuck to my colors. Now, years later, I am deeply involved with Legacy and it is easily my favorite format, there are a number of base G/B decks like Jund, Junk, BUG control, Shardless BUG, and BUG Delver. However, I am a stubborn purest and refuse to splash for a third color. But because of this, my deck has a few weaknesses that I believe I have tried my hardest to minimize." This shows the poster to have a history of inflexibility, and who wants to debate or discuss with a self-described stubborn purist? Vin666 then falls into the same classic newbie pattern of getting frustrated and defensive when his first deck isn't showered with adulation but is instead picked apart.
Additionally, opening the post by bringing up the deck's weaknesses really undersells the deck. This list has the most in common with Modern GB lists that are doing well this season. It would be easy to see it as a port from Modern, which, some of us will remember, was the case with Jund. Jund was not taken seriously here because it originated in Modern, but Jund quickly found its footing in Legacy.
At minimum, this deck has a more reliable manabase than other Rock-style decks.
Vin666, can you give some tournament reports? If there aren't any tournaments near you for a while, can you please give some reports of your playtesting sessions? I think that would be the most helpful.
I feel this is a somewhat condescending notion. Revitalizing The Rock can be done in the Rock thread. Yes, they play white there, but for good reason. Let's name a few: Swords to Plowshares, Lingering Souls, Knight of the Reliquary, Sorin, Elspeth. There's a lot of good reasons to play white. And with Duals and Fetch, we can easily play a three colour combination. Limiting yourself to just two colours means you miss out on some of the better cards out there.
But anyway, allow me to help out a bit. Of course BG could work as well. The mana base should be more stable, and the Golgari colours have enough cool stuff to fill a deck. But your original list has some issues. All have been noted, and with good reason, not just to be negative. Here we go:
1. Your mana curve is bad. You have only 8 proper turn one plays, which will lead to too many games where you don't get to play a one-drop, lagging your game behind immidiately.
2. You play very little lands for a deck like this. Deed and Wish are slow and clunky. You'll need more mana to make them work. If you should make them work at all. Perhaps they aren't needed.
3. The guys have a point about Scooze. It sucks in multiples. You already have Deathrites to limit graveyards. And there's the easiest solution:
Green Sun's Zenith.
Let's have a look at this card. It's a one-drop, if you play a Dryad Arbor as a one-of. It's a Tarmogoyf, if you need it. It's a Scavenging Ooze, if you need it. It's a Deathrite, if you need it. You can even cough up a Reclamation Sage now, to blow up an annoying Jitte or so. Accelleration, threat, utility. All in one. Why don't you play it? It also smoothes out your curve immidiately.
So first change I'd make to your list is: -3 Ooze, -2 X (Wish probably), +4 Zenith, +1 Dryad Arbor.
Other things I recommend you change:
1. Mana base
You run 20 lands, with 1x Woodland thing, 1x Treetop Village (?) 3x Wasteland and 1x Volrath's Stronghold. I would seriously cut into this. One more land seems an absolute must, even with Zenith into Arbor in the deck. +1 Fetch, +1 Forest, +1 Wasteland, +1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth seems a good idea. The last one will help casting Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil, which should become the backbone of the list. You can cut the Stronghold (only good in the very late game, no utility guys to make it work for its best), the Woodland thing (I don't like it - awesome argument, I know), the Village (enters tapped = not an option), -1 X (Wish).
2. Disruption and removal
Wishes are too slow for my taste. I would cut those. Four Deeds is overkill. The best deck for them (Nic Fit) doens't even run the full set. Cut one or two of those as well. We need at least three Liliana. Furthermore Hymn to too good to pass up on. Disfigure is good, but only against half the meta. Maybe we should cut a few of those. Pulse is great late game, but not so great early on. Not sure about that thing.
Adding this all up leads to this list:
Guys:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant /14
Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil /25
Lands:
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest (or whatever green fetch)
2 Polluted Delta (or whatever black fetch)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland /21
Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
1-2 Disfigure
0-2 Golgari Charm
0-2 Toxic Deluge
2-3 Umezawa's Jitte
0-2 Grafdigger's Cage
0-2 Sugrical Extraction
2-4 Duress
0-3 Mindbreak trap
0-3 Thorn of Amethyst
1-2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2-3 Pithing Needle /15
(Feel free to change anything here. I don't know what to expect of your meta.)
Other things to consider:
- If Rest in Peace isn't a big thing in your meta, try a one-of Terravore in the main. Nice finisher.
- If Blade decks a re a big thing, add the Reclamation Sage to the board. Nice Zenith target.
- Note Cage messes up your own Zenith, but it also stops opposing Zenith and Natural Order. So it's good against Elves.
- Lastly, don't forget about the cards Kitchen Finks. Burn is popular here and there, and Canadian Thresh also really hates that guy. If those two decks are popular at your LGS, feel free to add a few Finks.
Hope this helps.
EDIT: See I forgot about Sylvan Library. Added to the deck. Deeds move to the board.
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