WotC future vision of Aggro vs. Control

[AggroControl]

Someone mentioned how Terminus was unfair, and said basically "it can kill however many elves your opponent managed to cheat out as early as turn 2!" The key word there is "cheated." If the creature decks didn't do ridiculous shit we wouldn't need sweepers as badly, most decks would run some assortment of spot removal and their own creatures.

I said nothing about the fairness of the card, just pointed out that a sweeper for all creatures was now available as early as turn 2, which had never been the case in Legacy before Terminus was printed. I actually like the card. It opens up several other viable archetypes in Legacy besides control, although people haven't explored much past that point yet in the 2+ years Terminus has been available.

[HammerAndSickled]

Except if people start playing Pyroclasm/similar effects then Zoo or some other deck full of x/3s preys on that, so people start running Firespout/Anger, so people start running Goyf/Knight decks... Eventually you get back to just needing a sweeper that hits everything. It also helps that your sweeper has splash damage against combo like Reanimator, Sneak/Show, etc. it's good for the game to have universal answers available.

The issue with Misstep was not that it was "too powerful an answer," that's a willful misrepresentation of history. It's not like we can't play Legacy if our 1-mana spells get countered or else Chalice of the Void would be banned. The problem with MM was the sheer ubiquity of everyone adopting it, and the fact that it is the best answer to itself makes problematic inbreeding possible.

[Zombie]

Except if people start playing Pyroclasm/similar effects then Zoo or some other deck full of x/3s preys on that, so people start running Firespout/Anger, so people start running Goyf/Knight decks... Eventually you get back to just needing a sweeper that hits everything.

And then because that sweeper is slow, people can run Elves/Zoo again in an attempt to go under the Verdict/Damnation. Which is exactly the fucking point. So you can't just run Terminus and say fuck you to absolutely fucking everything. I mean, fuck, you can't even get value from graveyard interactions against that thing.

[AggroControl]

And then because that sweeper is slow, people can run Elves/Zoo again in an attempt to go under the Verdict/Damnation. Which is exactly the fucking point. So you can't just run Terminus and say fuck you to absolutely fucking everything. I mean, fuck, you can't even get value from graveyard interactions against that thing.

There are good answers to Terminus. The best one is just not to put too many creatures on the board at once. Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique both mess with it. Then there are all the ways to shut down Sensei's Divining Top, which is the best way to use it effectively. Stifle makes it virtually unplayable the turn it is drawn.

Not to beat a dead horse here but without Brainstorm Terminus would be a more than fair card. If you shut down their top they'd have a very hard time finding a timely sweep. That's Magic at it's best, a well-played strategy with a little luck can shut down the things the opponents need to do to win the game.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

I don't see much harm in what was said. The bigger issue is the ever-increasing effectiveness of creatures. Hopefully, the better they become, the more vulnerable they become to spot removal.

[danyul]

There are good answers to Terminus. The best one is just not to put too many creatures on the board at once. Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique both mess with it. Then there are all the ways to shut down Sensei's Divining Top, which is the best way to use it effectively. Stifle makes it virtually unplayable the turn it is drawn.

Not to beat a dead horse here but without Brainstorm Terminus would be a more than fair card. If you shut down their top they'd have a very hard time finding a timely sweep. That's Magic at it's best, a well-played strategy with a little luck can shut down the things the opponents need to do to win the game.

All of those answers are Blue (yawwwnnnn). Aside from P.Needle which isn't directly answering the Terminus. I don't mind people who play Terminus. They usually know what they are doing is dirty and OP. But to defend it? Eww. (Clearly I'm slightly biased)

Also Brainstorm, being relatively OP, makes other cards better. We already know this. But that doesn't necessarily excuse the card that Brainstorm is enabling. And hoping you win because your opponent doesn't top deck his 4-of that will completely shut you down is definitely not Magic at its best. That's just random luck. I'd rather play the credit card game. At least then I have the chance of getting what Terminus players always get - a free lunch.

[Barook]

I said nothing about the fairness of the card, just pointed out that a sweeper for all creatures was now available as early as turn 2, which had never been the case in Legacy before Terminus was printed. I actually like the card. It opens up several other viable archetypes in Legacy besides control, although people haven't explored much past that point yet in the 2+ years Terminus has been available.

What exact archetypes does it enable aside from UW control? You need white for Terminus and blue to have consistent ways to set up Terminus (no, SDT alone is not enough to make it a good deck).

If anything, it suppresses archetypes since Super-Wrath-of-Gods for are absolute horsehit. It's basically the same problem the article described for Standard, except on steroids. It just adds to the various other problems why Aggro in general is unviable in Legacy.

There are good answers to Terminus. The best one is just not to put too many creatures on the board at once. Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique both mess with it. Then there are all the ways to shut down Sensei's Divining Top, which is the best way to use it effectively. Stifle makes it virtually unplayable the turn it is drawn.

Not to beat a dead horse here but without Brainstorm Terminus would be a more than fair card. If you shut down their top they'd have a very hard time finding a timely sweep. That's Magic at it's best, a well-played strategy with a little luck can shut down the things the opponents need to do to win the game.

Or you can just flat out counter it. The thing is that all those answers all require blue. And no, Revoker and Needle aren't exactly answers to it when they can still naturally draw it or set it up with Brainstorm.

Gaddock Teeg and Nevermore are non-blue answers to Terminus. And those are either pretty vulnerable or pretty narrow.

It's also interesting how there's absolutely no mentioning of combo in said article.

[TsumiBand]

Indeed, combo and Terminus managed to be absent from the discussion. I figured Terminus was a no-brainer given the context.

There are other ways of addressing Terminus, even if it is a little bit cheeky and limited. Teeg was mentioned; you can also pull the blink trick. Legion's Initiative is... questionably playable. Planar Guide would be hilarious against Miracles in general (counters Terminus, undoes their dumb Angel tokens) but at to activate, probably just a pipe dream. Ghostway is Farva at best, but maybe in conjunction with cromulent ETB things it can do work. I dunno.

Really one of the defining mechanics here is alternate costs being paid. If only there were some card that kept people from casting spells that cost less than a certain amount, hmm.

[AggroControl]

What exact archetypes does it enable aside from UW control? You need white for Terminus and blue to have consistent ways to set up Terminus (no, SDT alone is not enough to make it a good deck).

Terminus would be great in Wx Prison/Stax builds that don't use creatures. Right now D&T is filling that niche in the meta but I've been expecting to see a good White control build emerge for awhile now. Green splash for Sylvan Library and any of Mirri's Guile, Crop Rotation or Burgeoning. No problem playing a Terminus off of that type of build.

If you started with Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library and then customized from there you are probably on solid ground. Mirri's Guile is a double-edged sword because it provides great value before your draw phase but it does not provide card advantage. Burgeoning can provide hyper acceleration, effectively letting you dump your opening lands on your opponent's turn 1 but then it slows down a lot so it's really the equivalent of a 1cc permanent sorcery in a land heavy build. It can let you sandbag land drops to put the opponent off guard. He thinks you are tapped out but you have two lands in hand you have been holding and when he drops a fetch and fetches you will suddenly have two mana out of nowhere. Terminus makes all of that possible because you can use it as your early protection against creature aggro. Not even a Delver list will counter a Terminus once they realize you are on a Prison/Stax path because they'll be desperately holding onto their counters to prevent a locking piece from landing.

[LOLWut]

What exact archetypes does it enable aside from UW control? You need white for Terminus and blue to have consistent ways to set up Terminus (no, SDT alone is not enough to make it a good deck).

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12868&iddeck=94356

[Not a statement on the + or - of Terminus. Just an interesting deck.]

[Ellomdian]

The article above flew under my radar and I expect that I was not the only one...

Yeah, I found the link in a response to Chas Andres' weekly on SCG, and I had much the same reaction. It's too bad that the overall quality of editorial content on the Mothership has crashed for the last year - it means stuff like this gets overlooked.

I think it's going to be interesting to see how this changes the face of Standard - the time frame the reference with no CMC 4 wrath was the one with 5-color Cruel Control, and the environment was as much defined by Cryptic command as other examples were their respective Wraths. Creating more conditional removal does not enhance your deck building options - it makes you much more draw-dependent (IMO.)

[sjmcc13]

To me, this is wizards deciding to slowly kill creature light decks, because they have decided to re-define "meaningful" interaction to just combat.

There is nothing wrong with creature centric control decks, and there is nothing wrong with creature light control decks (unless you are WotC), for the game to be truly healthy there we basically need to aggro control and combo all be viable, with low to heavy creature strategies viable for each of the archetypes (not the full range in each archtype, but a decent part of the spectrum, and the whole spectrum over all archtypes). They seem to be trying to slowly kill off low creature decks from the game.

If a creature deck can kill on turn 4 (and yes there are Std decks that can goldfish a T4 kill) then mass removal on turn 5 is to slow.
They need to focus on interaction other than creature beatdown.

Control decks have always had a tendency to be on the losing end of the life race and need powerful effects to give them a chance to stabalize the board enough to recover. this last year orf standard UW control would not have existed without Verdice as a sweeper AND S. Revilation to recover their life totals.

the problem is that as cards enter legacy from Std. those cards will increasingly be creatures since those are the only good cards they make now a days, which can slowly kill creature light stratagie sin Legacy as well.

All of those answers are Blue (yawwwnnnn). Aside from P.Needle which isn't directly answering the Terminus. I don't mind people who play Terminus. They usually know what they are doing is dirty and OP. But to defend it? Eww. (Clearly I'm slightly biased)

They are also not the best answers to Terminus.
the best answers to the existance of Terminus is the same as the best answer to WoG. Do Not Overcommit. Peopel were winngin against control decks with aggro ones for years because they knew how to do things like not overcommit and bait a wrath effect whiole holding back enough to drop enough threats to recover in a turn or 2.

If a fast Terminus ruins you game, then you probably are playing a fast rush deck where that type of answer is needed to combat you.

Also they just made a non-blue answer in Conspiracy, the goblin that if you vial in afterwards is basically 2 mana get a dork back (I half want to try him and Mana echos in a goblin deck for a laugh). Plus there is Gaddock Teeg who shuts down almost every threat in Miracles if you can land him, including Terminus.

[Barook]

Creating more conditional removal does not enhance your deck building options - it makes you much more draw-dependent (IMO.)

Actually, I think it does reward proper deckbuilding.

What it doesn't do is making Standard a less shitty format. Who cares about Wrath anyway when you can just play 12+ Planeswalkers in a deck and call it a day?

Edit:

There is nothing wrong with creature centric control decks, and there is nothing wrong with creature light control decks (unless you are WotC), for the game to be truly healthy there we basically need to aggro control and combo all be viable, with low to heavy creature strategies viable for each of the archetypes (not the full range in each archtype, but a decent part of the spectrum, and the whole spectrum over all archtypes). They seem to be trying to slowly kill off low creature decks from the game.

The interesting thing is that we already have a creature-heavy control deck in Legacy - Death & Taxes. Too bad it clashes badly with Wizards' current stance that mana denial is Devil Incarnate. I would enjoy a creature deck with lots of synergestic, tricky flash creatures.

[AggroControl]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12868&iddeck=94356

[Not a statement on the + or - of Terminus. Just an interesting deck.]

I hadn't even thought about Scroll Rack and Land Tax because tax was banned last time I played. That's a wonderful idea.

[Zombie]

Yeah, I found the link in a response to Chas Andres' weekly on SCG, and I had much the same reaction. It's too bad that the overall quality of editorial content on the Mothership has crashed for the last year - it means stuff like this gets overlooked.

I think it's going to be interesting to see how this changes the face of Standard - the time frame the reference with no CMC 4 wrath was the one with 5-color Cruel Control, and the environment was as much defined by Cryptic command as other examples were their respective Wraths. Creating more conditional removal does not enhance your deck building options - it makes you much more draw-dependent (IMO.)

IMO Mothership content quality crashed during Alara block already.

[AggroControl]

I didn't describe Burgeoning correctly. It is actually limited to when your opponent plays a land, which means 1 per turn in most cases. This still breaks the symmetry however which is something Control lists are always trying to do and functions as acceleration also, ditto.

[Barook]

I didn't describe Burgeoning correctly. It is actually limited to when your opponent plays a land, which means 1 per turn in most cases. This still breaks the symmetry however which is something Control lists are always trying to do and functions as acceleration also, ditto.

How is Burgeoning better than the less conditional Exploration?

[Lord Seth]

It has found us already: Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Marsh Casualties, Pyroclasm.
Back in the day, people also ran Firespout in UGr Goyf-Countertop if memory serves.

All markedly more interesting cards than Dumbminus IMO. I like the move on WotCs part insofar that they're moving towards less absolute interactions. The downside can already be seen in Standard, though - matchups that revolve around stuff that just can't be dealt with outside of a couple specific pieces of removal and consequently just take over games.

It's also really worrying how lightly they're treating self-blinking as a means of durability. That stuff is cancer, as AEtherling should've already shown.

Aetherling was fine. The card costs 6 mana, and then you have to keep another open to save it from a possible kill spell when you cast it (effectively making it cost 7 mana). It's not even that amazing of a threat; in practice, it's just a finisher, so its main purpose is to win you games you were going to win eventually anyway. There's a reason why people moved to Elspeth, Sun's Champion when she came out; she's a win condition that can turn around a game far more easily than Aetherling, all for less mana than Aetherling!

[AggroControl]

How is Burgeoning better than the less conditional Exploration?

It allows you to sandbag lands for Land Tax, activation costs and things like Miracles.

It also allows you to play lands during your opponent's turn particularly early on. This gives you the ability to see your opponent's play before you decide which extra lands you want in play. What you give up by doing that is extra acceleration during your turn. What you gain is giving your opponent less information about the game state at the end of your turn.

Almost all lists are going to play a land on the first 3 turns and every other turn thereafter. That provides ample opportunity to exploit Burgeoning.

Want to protect your Rishadan Port from a Wasteland until the opponent has dropped his land for the turn? Maybe he doesn't even drop the Wasteland and you get to tap down two lands before your next turn. Want to waste the land he just dropped because he didn't see a Wasteland on the table?

Want to scry during his turn with a New Benalia? Want to look at 3 cards during his turn with Halimar Depths after you see what land he has played and how much mana he has to work with?

Want to remove his Life from the Loam after he has cast it and played what he recovered with a Bojuka Bog?

Want a built-in trigger to his dropping lands that you normally would not have access too? He drops a land and Burgeoning triggers and you can respond to that trigger with any other instant effect in your hand.

If the land he is dropping is Dark Depths and he has a Vampire Hexmage on the board and you have Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling or Sudden Shock in your hand you will have priority on the Burgeoning trigger and you will be able to kill the Vampire Hexmage before he can activate it and make a Marit Lage.

This is because the act of dropping a land does not normally give anybody priority. The active player would normally receive priority at the next opportunity. However your Burgeoning, and the fact that it is yours is important, triggers creating a situation in which someone will get priority, that someone being you since you are the controller of the source of the trigger.

Now you can respond to that trigger by doing, well anything you can legally cast or activate at that point. Normally your opponent will get a chance to respond to anything you do but since you are casting a spell with Split Second he or she will be unable to put any effects on the stack until it resolves. At which point the Vampire Hexmage will be dead and no longer on the battlefield to trouble you.

If you did not have priority after Dark Depths was put into play, as is normally the case in the opposing player's turn, then he could activate the hexmage's ability to take the counters off of depths and even Split Second won't save you since the hexmage activation does not depend on it being on the battlefield when the effect on the stack resolves.

[Aggro_zombies]

Indeed, combo and Terminus managed to be absent from the discussion.

They didn't rate a mention because the article is about Standard. WotC has done its utmost to breed actual combo out of Standard since Time Spiral, partly because they rolled big ramp decks like the old Valakut deck into the definition of combo as well so as long as ramp is viable they consider combo a thing. Terminus wasn't mentioned partly because it was thoroughly overshadowed by Bonfire of the Damned and partly because there wasn't a W/x deck that wanted it but couldn't - for whatever reason - make do with either Bonfire or Supreme Verdict (EDIT: Also, when Terminus was printed, Day of Judgment was in Standard. It rotated when RtR came out and brought Verdict). There's also the fact that Standard was largely free of cantrips that would be good at setting up a Terminus for most of the time it was around, so it was basically a six-mana Wrath that could unreliably be cast for W - but unlike Bonfire, which was always at least a Fireball to the dome, casting Terminus for its miracle cost with only one or two guys on-board would have been a waste of the card. It therefore fits with their current design paradigm as long as you look at it in the context of Standard.

Legacy is a different beast because it's a format defined entirely by being awash in cheap variance-reducing spells, and in that case Terminus costs one but sometimes might cost six. Oh well.