[Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

A little look at why there's one of the three traditional core archetypes missing from current Legacy.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ggro-Died.html

Enjoy :)

[Ellomdian]

Yup.

It's a slight misstatement that WotC is "Pushing the power level of creatures" - what's really happening is that as creatures get better, the 'average' creature is now very good, and the benefits of playing midrange have gotten even more distinct. When cards like Goyf, DRS, or Geist exist, it makes sad Wild Nacatl very, very sad.

Remember years ago when you had to make the Grizzly Bears Legendary to make it cost 1? I don't think that a 2/2 for 1 with no downside would even impact Modern, let alone Legacy.

[ESG]

I really dislike the Trained Armodon comparison, which makes light of the format-warping disaster that is True-Name Nemesis. I think Drew Levin was the person who coined that, but it's extremely unhelpful to repeat it. I've played Legacy for six years now, and this is the least fun the format has ever been.

Delver of Secrets isn't the problem. True-Name Nemesis is the problem. Ban that card and aggro decks can contort themselves enough to beat Miracles and most combo decks.

I know you favor control and combo decks, so you probably don't appreciate the negative impact of TNN in the same way that those of us who play less control and combo do. I really wish you could walk in our shoes for a day.

[Lemnear]

I really dislike the Trained Armodon comparison, which makes light of the format-warping disaster that is True-Name Nemesis. I think Drew Levin was the person who coined that, but it's extremely unhelpful to repeat it. I've played Legacy for six years now, and this is the least fun the format has ever been.

Delver of Secrets isn't the problem. True-Name Nemesis is the problem. Ban that card and aggro decks can contort themselves enough to beat Miracles and most combo decks.

I know you favor control and combo decks, so you probably don't appreciate the negative impact of TNN in the same way that those of us who play less control and combo do. I really wish you could walk in our shoes for a day.

Delver is the reason all the Zoo and Sligh strategies became obsolete; TNN and SFM killed the whole Midrange diversity.

Pick your badboy :/

[(nameless one)]

Delver is the reason all the Zoo and Sligh strategies became obsolete; TNN and SFM killed the whole Midrange diversity.

Pick your badboy :/

Delver tempo isnt the reason why aggro is dead. Delver tempo IS the "aggro" of the format.

[Higgs]

Delver tempo isnt the reason why aggro is dead. Delver tempo IS the "aggro" of the format.

- Luke, I am your father.
- Nooooooo!!!

[HSCK]

I really dislike the Trained Armodon comparison, which makes light of the format-warping disaster that is True-Name Nemesis. I think Drew Levin was the person who coined that, but it's extremely unhelpful to repeat it. I've played Legacy for six years now, and this is the least fun the format has ever been.

Delver of Secrets isn't the problem. True-Name Nemesis is the problem. Ban that card and aggro decks can contort themselves enough to beat Miracles and most combo decks.

I know you favor control and combo decks, so you probably don't appreciate the negative impact of TNN in the same way that those of us who play less control and combo do. I really wish you could walk in our shoes for a day.

The comparison is totally correct though, and if you prefer Mental Misstep era Legacy to what we have now then that speaks for itself. You're also dead wrong about contorting to beat Miracles with aggro when Miracles has 1 mana wrath and a lock at the 2. I have no idea how you're coming to these conclusions.

[Barook]

Delver tempo isnt the reason why aggro is dead. Delver tempo IS the "aggro" of the format.

Only RUG classifies as "aggro" deck.

UWR is clearly midrange with SFM and TNN. BUG is also quite mid-rangey with cards like DRS and the occasional Liliana.

[Echelon]

I very much enjoyed the article!

[menace13]

if you prefer Mental Misstep era Legacy to what we have now then that speaks for itself.

I'm really not so sure that strategic diversity was any lower during that period. You compiled data sets and touted that this is the most diverse Legacy has been. With something along the lines of the top 12 decks of the format compromising 60% of all top 8s. While I am terrible with math, we do have data during the short tenure of the Mental Misstep era. New Phyrexia release on May 13th 2011 and the ban on September 20th 2011.

June 2011: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-6

July: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-7

August: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-8

Compare those 3 months to the last 3 months now. At a glance it doesn't seem to be any less diverse.

[Barook]

The comparison is totally correct though, and if you prefer Mental Misstep era Legacy to what we have now then that speaks for itself. You're also dead wrong about contorting to beat Miracles with aggro when Miracles has 1 mana wrath and a lock at the 2. I have no idea how you're coming to these conclusions.

There was a format before Mental Misstep. I share the sentiment that the format has become less enjoyable since the printing of Delver because it marked the point of printing a bunch of blue/blue-releated cards that caused the shift towards the extremely blue-heavy meta we have today.

E.g. Zoo can deal with SFM via Burn and Stp before Batterskull comes online and it can also nuke Skull with Pridemade. That's least of its trouble, aside from Delver out-aggroing it.

As the article mentioned, Terminus absolutely ruins aggro's strategy (and Teeg without protection doesn't do too much, besides not fitting an aggro strategy as a Vanilla bear), Snapcaster also hurts (although that's more relevant in Modern) and TNN is basically an indestructible roadblock that can ruin your day with equipment.

What I kinda miss in the article is going a bit more into detail on Griselbrand (and Emrakul). A resolved Griselbrand is basically game over and aggro has only very limited ways to deal with him and his ilk.

"Ban Card X" won't bring back aggro unless Wizards would go on a massive banning spree to remove all the horsecrap they've printed since Innistrad (not happening).

I'm really not so sure that strategic diversity was any lower during that period. You compiled data sets and touted that this is the most diverse Legacy has been. With something along the lines of the top 12 decks of the format compromising 60% of all top 8s. While I am terrible with math, we do have data during the short tenure of the Mental Misstep era. New Phyrexia release on May 13th 2011 and the ban on September 20th 2011.

June 2011: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-6

July: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-7

August: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?...e&fecha=2011-8

Compare those 3 months to the last 3 months now. At a glance it doesn't seem to be any less diverse.

The format suffered from blue ubiquity, not lack of format diversity. And no, Mental Misstep, does not go into every deck. In the B&R thread, I ran some numbers over an average 10 SCG Open events and *suprise* *suprise* Mental Misstep was only in ~73% of all decks on average during its zenith (for comparision, Brainstorm is at ~69% right now).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I really dislike the Trained Armodon comparison, which makes light of the format-warping disaster that is True-Name Nemesis. I think Drew Levin was the person who coined that, but it's extremely unhelpful to repeat it. I've played Legacy for six years now, and this is the least fun the format has ever been.

Delver of Secrets isn't the problem. True-Name Nemesis is the problem. Ban that card and aggro decks can contort themselves enough to beat Miracles and most combo decks.

I know you favor control and combo decks, so you probably don't appreciate the negative impact of TNN in the same way that those of us who play less control and combo do. I really wish you could walk in our shoes for a day.

Admittedly, TNN hasn't been troubling me personally much - as you said, sleeving up Terminus or Dark Ritual the majority of the time tends to do that. However, I've seen (and playtested) enough games involving TNN to be well aware what a clusterfuck creature-based games involving it are. That doesn't change the fact that for an aggro deck TNN is pretty terrible as it actually does feel like just a random 3 power Phantom Warrior. You might notice that I also called it a three mana Progenitus a little further down the line - which I feel decently depicts what the card does in a midrangy deck and how warping it is in that context.

Delver tempo isnt the reason why aggro is dead. Delver tempo IS the "aggro" of the format.

Delver is pretty far from a traditional aggro deck, though. Yes, among the top tier Legacy decks, it clearly plays the closest to an actual aggressive strategy. That doesn't mean it actually works even remotely close to something like Zoo that is just trying to 'zerk the opponent down. It's kinda said if players that favor that kind of game don't get an outlet any more.

You're also dead wrong about contorting to beat Miracles with aggro when Miracles has 1 mana wrath and a lock at the 2.

Goblins would like to disagree. There really is no single deck that's holding aggro back, it's the fact that between combo, Terminus and overpowered creatures, nothing is bad against turn one Kird Ape any more and "protect the queen" Delver strategies do the same job more efficiently.



@Misstep era discussion: It seems that with time the period when Mental Misstep was legal has somehow become a time period during which only two decks were viable and the format was completely ruined. I remember that time rather vividly and that's pretty far from the truth. I've come around to agreeing that the format over all is better without Mental Misstep but it's important to remember that Misstep wasn't a combo winter style event. We still had a large and strategically varied metagame when Misstep was legal, just with everybody playing essentially 56 card decks and Canadian Thresh and Storm style strategies pushed out by decks going somewhat bigger.

/edit: @barook: got ninja-posted ;)

Concerning the lack of discussing Griselbrand/Emmi, the problem with those for aggro seems to be mainly that an easy to play to tier combo deck has made combo more common. Combo in and of itself is a terrible matchup for aggressive decks because of its strategic superiority so I don't think that matchup would be all that much better if S&S still cheated in Progenitus or something similar on t2 (a little, sure). Mind you, I agree that Emmi and Griselbrand don't help the format (on the contrary), I just don't think the disgusting duo had much to do with aggros demise. The difference between them and the threats they cheated in when aggro was still a thing isn't what makes aggro's matchup against the deck suddenly terrible. It was already, Griseldad just makes it even more obvious.
As to Misstep once again, I think most people among those 27% that didn't run it were probably just wrong - and that's the main problem with the card (aside from it forcing out non-redundant early game strategies such as Stifle-based Tempo and non-Show and Tell combo). If your deck doesn't have a very strong reason (the only one I can think of right now is having Chalice of the Void in your deck or maybe -just maybe - Lion's Eye Diamond) to run a free tempo advantage tool that places absolutely no requirements on your own deckbuilding, you should likely be playing that card.

[HSCK]

I also agree that Misstep era had more diversity than people give it credit for, but was it really more than what is here now? If the only data people are using to determine health and diversity now is the Opens then I think Legacy is obviously going to look more skewed than a look at worldwide trends. As for "fun" I have a hard time believing a player that complains about how "unfun" things are now would think Misstep Legacy was more, which was the comment I was referring too.

I still think Miracles is a bigger obstacle, as it can just as easily get Thopter combo and the SFM package in addition to the weapons it already has.

[menace13]

The format suffered from blue ubiquity, not lack of format diversity. And no, Mental Misstep, does not go into every deck. In the B&R thread, I ran some numbers over an average 10 SCG Open events and *suprise* *suprise* Mental Misstep was only in ~73% of all decks on average during its zenith (for comparision, Brainstorm is at ~69% right now).

Which is what I was trying to get at. It could be we are at the same point in terms of strategic diversity and blue based dominance right now. I recall your exact post in B&R on the subject.

I also agree that Misstep era had more diversity than people give it credit for, but was it really more than what is here now?

I dont know. The data is there, however it is limited to what TCDecks recorded at that time. And my math skills suck, so it would be laughable to try and bring any data analysis of mine into discussions as a topic. What the format appears to be from just looking at the decks might be totally different once calculated. Even so it's not an all encompassing collection of data.

As to Misstep once again, I think most people among those 27% that didn't run it were probably just wrong - and that's the main problem with the card (aside from it forcing out non-redundant early game strategies such as Stifle-based Tempo and non-Show and Tell combo). If your deck doesn't have a very strong reason (the only one I can think of right now is having Chalice of the Void in your deck or maybe -just maybe - Lion's Eye Diamond) to run a free tempo advantage tool that places absolutely no requirements on your own deckbuilding, you should likely be playing that card.

I agree that those 27% of decks were most likely wrong and am inclined to believe that had Misstep been allowed to stay then those numbers would keep increasing towards total Misstep ubiquity. I dont have any stats on this, but it is just a hunch. However, based on the DCI statement at the time, WotC knowingly admitted to them being okay with the idea that every deck played Misstep, just not so much when the only decks doing well were by far largely blue based shells.

As for Chalice, i suppose there could be an argument for it then, but it still suffered from what ails it now. A lack of the best spells in the format being in the deck. Despite that in that era Chalice probably was better positioned then now due to the format slowing down from Missteps. LED is interesting too, but I see it as a tool for only one deck in that time period. Dredge. And am not sure how much Dredge even played LED then. Belcher, the other LED deck suffered from Misstep two fold. One from an increase of blue and FoW and the other from another turn 0 counter to bottle neck their rituals from high storm and mana counts.

Thanks for the articles btw. Always hot topics.

[ESG]

If the only data people are using to determine health and diversity now is the Opens then I think Legacy is obviously going to look more skewed than a look at worldwide trends. As for "fun" I have a hard time believing a player that complains about how "unfun" things are now would think Misstep Legacy was more, which was the comment I was referring too.

I can't go play Magic in France or Italy or wherever the meta is presumably more diversified, so those worldwide examinations don't really help me.

On the fun issue, the Mental Misstep era was a worse time for the format as a whole, but I personally had more fun in that period than I do now, and I think sdematt feels similarly. One contributing factor is that the card got banned after one cycle, so that kept things from getting stale. It's possible that if Misstep had been kept around for years and years, I might have disliked that period more than the one we're in now. During the Misstep era, I designed and played three or four different off-the-radar decks and had success with most of them. The format is much more stringent and restrictive now, which impedes brewing, and I usually end up defaulting to a Tier I deck. From a skill-testing perspective, I enjoy playing and mastering BUG Delver and Elves, sure, but a big part of the fun of Legacy for me was the randomness and how Tier 2 or Tier 3 decks were still very competitive. The gulf now is much larger between the tiers. The format today is also a bluer one and more narrow in terms of dominant strategies, which makes sense because basically a whole chunk of the pie -- aggro (essentially always nonblue) -- has been cut out of serious contention. In my mind, that should be a clear wake-up call that we need some bannings, but if you've been reading The Source for any length of time, then you've seen how people dig their heels in over ban talk and don't actually contemplate whether things could be better.

At minimum, I think you have to concede that the power level of the format has risen a lot. Bans are one of the ways to curtail power level, but WOTC has not been exercising that, to the format's detriment, in my opinion.

Admittedly, TNN hasn't been troubling me personally much - as you said, sleeving up Terminus or Dark Ritual the majority of the time tends to do that. However, I've seen (and playtested) enough games involving TNN to be well aware what a clusterfuck creature-based games involving it are.

Thank you for acknowledging this. And, yes, a three-mana Progenitus (that can be equipped) is exactly what it is, so that is a comparison I would welcome.

[Ellomdian]

... which makes light of the format-warping disaster that is True-Name Nemesis.

You're right - TNN has single-handedly warped the format; but much to the dismay of most people who trot out this almost year-old rhetoric, it's for the better. Having a threat that can't be answered with the same tired, generic answers that players had been clinging to for years like a door in the middle of the ocean after the Titanic went down is a GOOD thing.

The good news is that comments that involve bashing TNN can be handled with the same reaction as people emphatically calling for Brainstorm to die - /ignore...

Admittedly, TNN hasn't been troubling me personally much - as you said, sleeving up Terminus or Dark Ritual the majority of the time tends to do that. However, I've seen (and playtested) enough games involving TNN to be well aware what a clusterfuck creature-based games involving it are.

I don't understand why there is still so much outrage about a card that requires you to play fundamentally differently - there's not nearly the vehemence around Dredge, and it functions in the same vein of "guess what? You have to deal with this thing that you aren't very good at dealing with..."

Also, people who expect to play Legacy like fancy-modern (play some creatures, get into the red zone, winzorz!!!) without significant hindrance and a certain amount of Fuckery shouldn't be playing in a format where cards like Nether Void, Invoke Prejudice, or Pox are legal. If you can't protect or force your game plan through, don't whine when it doesn't work very well.

[Barook]

You're right - TNN has single-handedly warped the format; but much to the dismay of most people who trot out this almost year-old rhetoric, it's for the better. Having a threat that can't be answered with the same tired, generic answers that players had been clinging to for years like a door in the middle of the ocean after the Titanic went down is a GOOD thing.

So you're saying that having cards that take completely the interactivity out of Magic games and turning them into a borefest are a good thing?

This isn't a case of e.g. "I'm on BUG, Mirran Crusader fucks me over, maybe I should play Toxic Deluge etc." - the answers to TNN are extremely narrow to non-existant (Hi, red! Good luck resolving those REBs...) and give birth to abominations like Council's Judgment which was clearly printed as answer to TNN to sell packs.

[HSCK]

So you're saying that having cards that take completely the interactivity out of Magic games and turning them into a borefest are a good thing?

This isn't a case of e.g. "I'm on BUG, Mirran Crusader fucks me over, maybe I should play Toxic Deluge etc." - the answers to TNN are extremely narrow to non-existant (Hi, red! Good luck resolving those REBs...) and give birth to abominations like Council's Judgment which was clearly printed as answer to TNN to sell packs.

Everything is designed to sell as much product as possible, I want WotC to sell more and more every year too, it's good for the game.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Invoke Prejudice. There was a mention of Invoke Prejudice. What's to discuss?
Seriously, while Dredge is at least interesting deck and it needs to be played cautiously (and one may easily interact with it, at least postboard), there's not much interesting about TNN.

Everything is designed to sell as much product as possible, I want WotC to sell more and more every year too, it's good for Wizards.

Ftfy.
What's good for the game is really an objective thing. There's a school of thought saying that TNN sucks and ain't good for the game. One may wonder what the will to sell might do with the game. I hope I'll never remind you of your words, after they mainstream this game into Yugioh Unlimited.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

As for Chalice, i suppose there could be an argument for it then, but it still suffered from what ails it now. A lack of the best spells in the format being in the deck. Despite that in that era Chalice probably was better positioned then now due to the format slowing down from Missteps. LED is interesting too, but I see it as a tool for only one deck in that time period. Dredge. And am not sure how much Dredge even played LED then. Belcher, the other LED deck suffered from Misstep two fold. One from an increase of blue and FoW and the other from another turn 0 counter to bottle neck their rituals from high storm and mana counts.

Thanks for the articles btw. Always hot topics.

Just a note: I wasn't saying that people should have been playing Chalice during the Misstep era. Just that it's the one good reason I can come up with on the spot why you wouldn't put Misstep in your deck. ;)

Happy you enjoy them :D

I don't understand why there is still so much outrage about a card that requires you to play fundamentally differently - there's not nearly the vehemence around Dredge, and it functions in the same vein of "guess what? You have to deal with this thing that you aren't very good at dealing with..."

That's like saying it would be ok for Wizards to print a 2BB Drain Life for twenty. After all, Storm does it, too, right? Dredge is a complete deck dedicated to doing something completely different that pays for that with a terrible mana base and no back up plan if your opponent actually has chosen to interact with you. TNN is a single card that shits all over creature combat at absolutely no deckbuilding cost whatsoever other than making room for it. If you don't see the difference between those two things, I'm not sure how to talk to you.

Also, the problem with TNN isn't only how hard it is to beat but how terribly uninteractive and boring games become (between creature based decks) once it gets involved. As long as the TNN player is behind, you can never profitably attack because TNN stays on defense and once they either equip it with something or have wrested control of the board (they had infinite time to do so, after all), it becomes an attacker that once again can't really be interacted with. How exactly does this kind of dynamic help make the format better?
As for the whole "play the answers you lazy ***" argument I personally am pretty fond of when people whine about how something crushes their cutesy pet deck, yes, there are dedicated hate cards to deal with it available to most color combinations but because TNN is a card, not a strategy a deck actually has to work to benefit from, you just made your deck so bad against the rest of their deck by adding all those crappy cards that killing TNN likely won't help you any more (or you boarded so few cards that only heavy library manipulation will give you a decent chance to find one in time). So unless you happen to already play one of those strategies that has natural answers to it (Miracles with its Wraths, Black decks with Liliana and combo decks to laugh about it), there's a good likelihood you end up caught between a rock and a hard place. I happen to think that it isn't great for the game if a host of possible decks can't be played just because of one fucked up card that leads to intensely boring games and is very difficult to hate in any efficient way.

@Barook: While I completely disagree with your assessment of Council's Judgement - I happen to think reasonably costed, flexible answers make for better games - I totally agree with your position on TNN. However your example wasn't exactly chosen perfectly (Toxic Deluge is in fact one of the best answers to TNN, too, not just Mirran Crusader ;) )

Everything is designed to sell as much product as possible, I want WotC to sell more and more every year too, it's good for the game.

I happen to agree with that one, too. If Wizards isn't making money, they'll stop making cards. I don't think there's anything that would be worse for the game (outside of totally unrelated things like WWIII or the zombie apocalypse, obviously). We can discuss about the problems the underlying design philosophy causes all we want, WotC selling cards and making money is, in fact, a thing we all should very much be rooting for.