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Thread: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

  1. #81
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Because that makes up for it being a 10/10 for sure. TNN is closer to the Elephant than Progenitus most of the time.
    Uh, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Because that makes up for it being a 10/10 for sure. TNN is closer to the Elephant than Progenitus most of the time.
    #BringBackReadingComprehension
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Respect my shine bitch!

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    What point are you trying to make?

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    What point are you trying to make?
    IDK, I just went along with your game of name something totally irrelevant about the post quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Respect my shine bitch!

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    It was a joke that the significance of its presence in Legacy is greatly exaggerated.

    A good card? Yes. But not worth getting your panties in a bunch for. I'm not even sure if there's a deck that packs True-Name Nemesis specific hate. Hell, even Golgari Charm was already being run before True-Name Nemesis was printed. Certainly it put Golgari Charm in the spotlight, but the truth is that Golgari Charm's utility would keep it being used in its current amounts (sans meta-shift) even if True-Name Nemesis were banned.
    I'm going to have to disagree here. Looking at TCDecks for decks that placed in the top 16 of a 30+ player tournament running Golgari Charm in the board:

    10 months before TNN: 14
    10 months since TNN: 61

    E. Plague before: 24
    E. Plague since: 28

    Persecution before: 10
    Persecution since: 39

    Massacre before: 14
    Massacre since: 26

    Note that I'm not taking into consideration the numbers of these cards in boards, but my guess is that those have gone up as well.

    It may not have as big of an impact within the scope of a single game as something like Griselbrand, but it's definitely had a warping effect on the format. D&T made a lot of changes to try and compensate, and it's still losing ground. Basically every deck now has to ask itself "can I deal with a hexproof/indestructable/unblockable guy?" and "can I deal with -x/-x effects?".

    Edit: It's certainly possible that all the TNN hate is a knee-jerk reaction to the card, and will taper off somewhat over time. It would also be interesting to see if the numbers of TNNs getting played is remaining constant or trending up/down.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    it's definitely had a warping effect on the format.
    Is this necessarily a bad thing?

    Anyway, the numbers on cards that kill True-Name Nemesis have gone up. Absolutely they have. The question is whether they would go down if True-Name Nemesis ceased to exist. Because Massacre is the tits. Massacre is literally the best card in the entire game. Go to game two? Board in four of them. They're playing High Tide? No problem. Massacre's got you covered from Hatebear A to Hatebear Z and every Stoneforge in-between. And Golgari Charm was a largely undiscovered card before True-Name Nemesis was released, but has become a staple in so many sideboards because of its utility.

    I'm sure Golgari Charm's popularity would dip as I think it's overplayed even now with True-Name in the format, but I'm of the opinion that these cards have always been good and people just didn't know how good.

  7. #87
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree here. Looking at TCDecks for decks that placed in the top 16 of a 30+ player tournament running Golgari Charm in the board:

    10 months before TNN: 14
    10 months since TNN: 61

    E. Plague before: 24
    E. Plague since: 28

    Persecution before: 10
    Persecution since: 39

    Massacre before: 14
    Massacre since: 26

    Note that I'm not taking into consideration the numbers of these cards in boards, but my guess is that those have gone up as well.

    It may not have as big of an impact within the scope of a single game as something like Griselbrand, but it's definitely had a warping effect on the format. D&T made a lot of changes to try and compensate, and it's still losing ground. Basically every deck now has to ask itself "can I deal with a hexproof/indestructable/unblockable guy?" and "can I deal with -x/-x effects?".

    Edit: It's certainly possible that all the TNN hate is a knee-jerk reaction to the card, and will taper off somewhat over time. It would also be interesting to see if the numbers of TNNs getting played is remaining constant or trending up/down.
    The meta's definitely warped.....now there are more rogue decks doing well. RUG Delver and Jund aren't 40% of the meta anymore either.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I am so sad that I missed the original post because it looks like it's received errata that removes this flavor text. :(


    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    IDK, I just went along with your game of name something totally irrelevant about the post quoted.
    I'm in:
    Quote Originally Posted by BDP
    That is also hydra.

    I don't mind that people started to play Golgari Charms, in fact (some of the) charms were good at least since Visions. What I mind is the reason why the Golgari one was introduced into the environment. It's Disco Inferno case and I don't like it, Charm sees play mostly (not only, but yeah) because of a design error (intentional or not). The fact that GGC is a nice and flexible card doesn't compensate for the fact that TNN is an ugly and boring one, at least in 1v1@20life games. Add its color plus creature type and maybe we might agree upon the idea that TNN is over the top and an example of bad design.
    Also, I don't really get what the whole High Tide Massacre part was about, but I think that you meant something like "in matchups where Golgari Charm isn't exactly necessary or where it's outright blank, one may simply sb it out for games 2+3", so maybe it'll be better to write it like that so that we don't need to play guess games.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    Also, I don't really get what the whole High Tide Massacre part was about, but I think that you meant something like "in matchups where Golgari Charm isn't exactly necessary or where it's outright blank, one may simply sb it out for games 2+3", so maybe it'll be better to write it like that so that we don't need to play guess games.
    That... seriously? It's an idiotic quip exaggerating the effectiveness of Massacre. There's no much to get.

    If you're playing black and you expect to play against or anticipate the possibility of people playing white, Massacre is one of the best sideboard cards in the game. That's the beginning and the end of it.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    Is this necessarily a bad thing?

    Anyway, the numbers on cards that kill True-Name Nemesis have gone up. Absolutely they have. The question is whether they would go down if True-Name Nemesis ceased to exist. Because Massacre is the tits. Massacre is literally the best card in the entire game. Go to game two? Board in four of them. They're playing High Tide? No problem. Massacre's got you covered from Hatebear A to Hatebear Z and every Stoneforge in-between. And Golgari Charm was a largely undiscovered card before True-Name Nemesis was released, but has become a staple in so many sideboards because of its utility.

    I'm sure Golgari Charm's popularity would dip as I think it's overplayed even now with True-Name in the format, but I'm of the opinion that these cards have always been good and people just didn't know how good.
    I'm totally willing to accept that whether you think True-Name's effects are a problem or not is a matter of opinion. I really just made that post because I was getting this impression that some people want to brush it off as no big deal, like it hasn't really had much impact on the format at all.

    I wouldn't call Charm undiscovered, I was running it in BUG Delver essentially right after it came out. That was a deck without a ton of removal though, now you see it in decks like Jund and Aggro Loam. Decks that already have Punishing Fire, Decay, Liliana, Bolt, and most are running at least 2 Charms in the board. Hell, people are talking about running it main now, and that's not because of the scourge that isn't D&T.

    It feels like when Dredge was really good several years ago, before they printed amazing grave hate in every set. People complained that it was warping the format because everyone devoted multiple sideboard slots to it. It made sideboards worse overall, and coincidentally shit on anything else that tried to use the graveyard as a resource. If you were on Zoo or goblins you didn't really give a shit. Loam or Reanimator? Might as well sleeve something else up for a while.

    Oh, and Teeg wants a word with Massacre...except the deck he was best in got shat on by Golgari charm everywhere meta.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Oh, and Teeg wants a word with Massacre...except the deck he was best in got shat on by Golgari charm everywhere meta.
    RIP Gaddock "Too Good" Teeg. Past quietly in his sleep under the hooves of a thousand decks that didn't suck. He seriously is such a good though.

    I think your examples of Golgari Charm and suspicion of a knee-jerk reaction are that "overplayed" I was talking about. For the record, I do play Golgari Charm in my Jund main and have for quite some time now, but I play it as a one-of in a flex spot because it's rarely a dead card, and I board it out in most match-ups because it's rarely the best card. I don't even keep it in against many decks running True-Name Nemesis because it's too narrow of a usage and is more likely to be in the graveyard before it sees a True-Name.

  12. #92

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Golgari Charm use is not increased just because of TNN. It is only good against it when it was not equipped anyway and an unequipped TNN is not even particularly good or threatening.

    Golgari Charm is good because of cards like Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant, unflipped Delvers, Counterbalance, increasing popularity of Elves..

    If you asked me why Goblins is dead currently I would say that since the introduction of Deathrite Shaman, the success rate of Lackey has gone down to near zero. Before Lackey would at least trade with Delver or Dark Confidant but DRS just kills it.

  13. #93

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Why Aggro Died

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Delver is the reason all the Zoo and Sligh strategies became obsolete; TNN and SFM killed the whole Midrange diversity.

    Pick your badboy :/
    Tarmogoyf killed off Werebear and co. I think that was a much more emotional shock for its time than TNN or Delver IMO.

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