I was unaware that a flipped Delver had the same BS "beginning of upkeep trigger" that afflicts Circling Vultures. A crap card from Weatherlight isn't the foundation on which to base an argument and be taken seriously. A flipped 1/1 human into a 2/1 flyer would've been much better. A 10 turn clock versus 7, and it dies to just about 'anything' stronger than a wet fart.Originally Posted by AndyTron
And yet, 3/4 of the DTB creature decks are Goyf decks; the other being D&T(I.E. non green, often running Mirran Crusader (for goyf) and Batterskull.)
He's objectively excellent and anyone saying something to the contrary is missing perspective somewhere. I do like other beaters at times, but to say Goyf isn't that good is to fail to understand the format or even magic on a fundamental level. He breaks the manacurve in serious way to the point that despite the extreme creature-power creep over time, he's top-dog over the course of an entire decade plus.
Other cards are good; but they aren't Goyf good.
It's not an answer so much as the opinion of one person. He say's he feels it more red but offers nothing else to back that up. I still think Snappy fits blue's slice of the pie for the reasons I've stated above, but I didn't mean to come off as rude or like I was looking for a fight. I was trying to point out why people shouldn't ever take Maro's word for something, and nothing I said was aimed directly at you in any way.
Last edited by AndyTron; 09-27-2014 at 01:28 AM.
Read the original post. He was responding to other people saying that delver wasn't that broken because of the drawback by claiming that a flying 3/2 is too strong to print regardless of any downside. I was also making a joke referencing Jelly's previous post, and not making a serious argument. Relax guy.
Last edited by AndyTron; 09-27-2014 at 01:26 AM.
When did anyone say "regardless of any and every downside ever"?
It's pretty easy to prove that people don't like it being too good because it's out of flavor for blue: I don't like it for that very reason. I'm pretty sure I'm a people.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I guess I am so use to dealing with IBA being so dismissive and then aggressive I forget not everyone is the same. Sorry.
On the topic, Maro is not the greatest of people to trust, but in this case he is not lying. Please point to a blue card that gives Flashback to other cards that is not Snap. In the Red colour pie you have Past in Flames and Recoup. The effect is a Red one. Maro, on top of exciting cards only provides more evidence to that.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Dralnu, Lich Lord is UB. But that is the equivalent of saying that blue should get Nevermore because Meddling Mage is half-blue. (That effect on a bear should be mono white but I digress, pros love blue.) And even then, black had the ability before Dralnu was printed twice (Yawgmoth's Will, Sins of the Past).
But even black was the wrong choice. Snapcaster and similar effects should be red because of the "use it or lose it" nature of the card. If Snapcaster said "When ~ ETB, choose target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard. You may play that card this turn. If you do, exile it." it would functionally be the same and the wording would be clearly red. (Sort of like Sins of the Past/YawgWill. But at least it's excusable in the traditional graveyard-monkeying color from Alpha).
Granted, we can't unprint anything, but it would be nice if in the future R&D wouldn't bend the color pie so often for blue while resisting even the slightest bends in other colors, and further to that explore the areas of design space in the other colors that could make them more objectively powerful. Treasure Cruise is the latest example of "here's how we can use a mechanic to make this crazy blue ability more 'balanced.'" (like Temporal Mastery). Delve Demonic Tutor or Ferocious Plow Under would've been cool.
At this point if a person is really concerned about TNN's presence in the meta it is almost certainly due to an over-engineered local meta with a player or maybe even a few of them playing multiple TNN in a control or midrange shell.
There are lists that just destroy that kind of list on a regular basis, like Burn and D&T, but if those lists aren't being played much, if the meta is a control/midrange/combo meta with a lot of homebrews waiting around to get wrecked then TNN is going to seem just godly at times.
In most metas it is Delver of Secrets and Terminus that is causing the big blue over-run. Those are the really frustrating cards to deal with at this point. They give blue a heavy presence in aggro, aggro control and control. They more than any other cards are responsible for the top 8's we see at this point.
Im going to agree with fool of a took and say tnn just changed the face of removal its not as oppressive as it was originally hyped to be. Sure the card is unfun unflavorful and off color but I think the meta has more diversity to be gained by removing terminus then it does tnn. Terminus killed archetypes tnn just forces certain card selections.
Just to fortify the point you just made, ways to remove TNN:
1. Golgari Charm
2. Zealous Persecution
3. Toxic Deluge
4. Terminus
5. Diabolic Edict
6. Marsh Casualties
7. Pernicious Deed
8. Innocent Blood
9. Etc, etc, etc. (4cc sweepers, ways to interfere with islands and mana in general, weird tech that nobody saw coming but man is TNN a drag when it emerges)
Ok, so that list is all black or white, what can other colors do to manage TNN that is Legacy playable?
1. Engineered Explosives (green and red have lots of ways to generate a 3rd color of mana)
2. REB or Pyroblast TNN when it is on the stack as a spell
3. Skullcrack the opponent when he has blocked with TNN
4. Fly over the TNN
5. Fly over the TNN carrying equipment
6. Gain Life (want to make a TNN player cry? Just keep gaining life on them)
7. Play an effective strategy that is not derailed by a land-bound blocker
8. Etc, etc, etc. (If you're getting beat consistently by a 3 power critter with protection from you that can't block any type of evasion change up what you are playing because the 3 power critter is not the problem here)
Point taken. The jelly comment might've been deleted. I has hate for delver, but am fine with Flying Men. Circling Vultures is an acceptable piece of cardboard as well.
You are a person, and amidst other persons, would qualify as a group of people.
I realize this is a thread for people to vent about a lame card, but it's seriously not an issue. It's three mana, two blue, run in only the greediest of mana-bases, and can't make the cut in any of the top decks except *some* team america builds. He's so easy to deal with by simply racing or running an answer. D&T simply added more Flyers, and boom; they're a DTB.
It's an obnoxious creature that you have to mildly hedge against when building a deck. All it takes, however, is any flying dude and a sword and bam; you have an anti-TNN nuke. Scryb Ranger, Birds of Paradise, Lingering Souls, etc..
Further, you can stall or race pretty well with DRS, you can race with just Lingering Souls or Young Pyromancer, Tombstalker, Howling Mandrills. Most of these cards are cheap and require mild build-around but are effective. Even a Rancor Hexproof build or a regular Zoo build will do you fine. Burn them! Go over the top!
For those of you who hate Blue and TNN, you can basically run Zoo and you'll be fine. You'll still fold to Elves pre-side, same with Dredge, Storm, S&T; but that's what half of the fair decks do anyway.
TNN itself is not the problem, if there is one. It would be the support he has in the decks he is ran. TNN by himself? Either a nigh-unstoppable clock or a nigh-impenetrable wall: not that scary. With Batterskull? Might as well read "you win chosen damage race". Sword of Fire and Ice or Jitte? Not as much of a win as with Batterskull, but they're cheaper to play/equip and provide utility in the form of removal and/or card advantage.
Jitte is worse than Batterskull. Even with SFM fetching and deploying Batterskull it takes time to make that work. With Jitte the combo can be up and running on turn 4 and then the board de-stabilizes in the TNN + Jitte's favor in a big way. Late game there's almost always an answer for Batterskull available and if there isn't then it's Batterskull beating you not TNN. SoFI and Batterskull are about the same because both take a real commitment to deploy.
T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 TNN, T4 Jitte and equip Jitte is about as bad as TNN gets at this point. It takes a great opening hand to do it too.
Thing is, say I'm playing Elves. I'm not actually super scared of Jitte. Worried, yes, and I have to respect it for sure. But I can handle Jitte and it can really give the opponent something nice and powerful to do. TNN by itself is whatever because I'm playing a combo deck and can just trample over it (though again, Jitte games can be interactive and tense. TNN games are just about ignoring Mr. Uninteraction). TNN+Jitte, eww.
Just a classic case of a fun card and a shit card again, and people suggesting the shit card is not a problem, do away with the fun card. (or at least the more interesting one of the two in this case)
Honestly I don't believe TNN or whatever sword he's carrying was ever a problem. Neither is SFM if ya want to take into consideration how it's pretty much a staple in any list with TNN and equipments. All I was saying with my previous comment is that TNN itself isn't scary by itself, but it's hardly ever ran without some Merfolk lord in Merfolk or some equipment and SFM in a Blade deck.
Thus, it's not exactly a case of a strong card, but a strong interaction between multiple cards. And if one were to be banned for whatever reason (either SFM or TNN, simply because banning equipment would be futile), you'd have to choose between a rather ubiquoutous tutor that has enabled several decks over the years, or a rather dull clock that, as the data provided suggests, has yet to have as big of an impact as SFM has.
I'm working on month 11 right now and only one of the top 6 decks even has TNN. Miracles, Elves, Death and Taxes, Deathblade, Jund, and Infect are all a little away from the pack right now.
Jund really isn't top 6 at this point. It's a very powerful list but consistency problems keep it from being tier 1. If you want a list to go 6-2 with Jund is your best bet overall but if you want to top 8 a large event it isn't really good enough. That doesn't mean it won't top 8 but it takes a lot of luck with matchups and draws to make that happen.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote