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Thread: 10 Months of TNN

  1. #21
    Sam S
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    "Told ya so"

  2. #22

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    I think more players dislike that it's a graveyard based Belcher.
    Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.

    Plus since the new Underworld Cerberus tech you can completely transform into Belcher post board when you expect them to have turn 1 graveyard hate available.

  3. #23
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.
    My point was that it's still a gimmicky and fragile combo that can be easily disrupted from A-Z and quite often loses to itself.

  4. #24

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.
    I think it's not fun to draw 7 cards and know that you either have to mulligan or risk it and there isn't really much of a decision tree/interaction/anything that you can do either than deal with the cards that are dealt you.
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  5. #25
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    I think the Data speaks more to how prevelant delver of secrets is, ten months ago, when everyone wanted to play TNN, the best way to beat it was to go over it's head and race it, Delver does just that, coupled with Liliana and hymn to tourach, you hardly care about TNN.

    It's still doesn't change the fact TNN is actually lazy and somewhat insulting design, it does however speak that the card itself isn't format warping, at least not in a format with Delver
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  6. #26
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Players are prepared for TNN, just like they're prepared for Stoneforge Mystic.

    TNN has definitely become ubiquitous to to the point where decks either have a gameplan against it, or are able to ignore it. I don't see it as format-warping, and in my locals not a lot of TNN decks have placed highly.

    You answer the equips, or Terminus them, or just kill them. You can get beat by 3x TNN nut draws, but it's not any faster than 3x Delver nut draws.
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  7. #27

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    By my personal experience TNN is hardly a factor in the meta game.

    When it gets equipped with Jitte it is a beating but so is Vendillion Clique. I don't see how TNN changed much actually and it does not show up in top8s often. It is just an annoying card but not particularly great and far from being the best creature in the format.
    Losing to True-Name Nemesis is a rare event these days unless Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice is along for the ride. It's a big beat down in either of those cases but TNN itself is not usually a problem. Vendilion Clique is more of a beating because it has flash and it forces your hand at EoT so it's harder to manage as a result. There are so many ways to deal with either of them at this point that it's hard to see them as a major problem.

    Delver of Secrets is the problem.

  8. #28
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Delver of Secrets is the problem.
    Oh, Jesus Christ, get over it. You want to know what the problem is? People with the inability to understand that new cards are printed. So what if after eighteen years they printed a blue one-drop that doesn't suck?

  9. #29

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    Oh, Jesus Christ, get over it. You want to know what the problem is? People with the inability to understand that new cards are printed. So what if after eighteen years they printed a blue one-drop that doesn't suck?
    I'm just pointing out that TNN and Clique both are blue-styled control cards with limited tempo use. Delver is a red or green styled card with heavy tempo applications. It actually appears in top 8's in decent numbers at this point, which neither of the other two cards do.

    Would you still see Delver as ok if it was just a Merfolk Guide that dropped for and started attacking for 2 each turn?

  10. #30
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Jelly, Delver is way outside its colour. It's like printing Counterspell in Green. It's not that Blue only has bad one drops, I mean Judges Familiar is flavourful and good, it's just not a beat down creature. But it's definitely a not Blue. Delver feels more Green/Red to me and it really is a problem.
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  11. #31
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Would you still see Delver as ok if it was just a Merfolk Guide that dropped for and started attacking for 2 each turn?
    And what if I were to ask you how Griselbrand would be if it was just a Force of Grisel that cost and countered spells? It's dumb and I don't care.

    Delver of Secrets is clearly a good creature, but it is not oppressively good and it neither breaks flavor or mechanics. Every color, even into the modern day, has a history of aggressively costed beaters that are balanced by an in-color drawback. Blue just happened to, after enough iterations, get one that worked.

  12. #32

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game, and it's totally out of the blue color to have such a creature; the fact that blue can protect it or flip it more easily than the other colors it's another problem.

  13. #33

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.
    If you own legacy cards why would you ever play such a miserable deck? A game of Dr. Mario is more entertaining than a linear pile like Oops all Dicks. The reason it isn't played more is because people want to have some level of involvement in the game ... also most people interested in legacy have some ability to obtain real cards.

  14. #34

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Delver of Secrets is the problem.

  15. #35

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.

    Plus since the new Underworld Cerberus tech you can completely transform into Belcher post board when you expect them to have turn 1 graveyard hate available.
    The "Oops All Spells" deck is basically a worse version of Belcher that is vulnerable to graveyard hate. So it's vulnerable to Storm hate AND graveyard hate. Fail.

    There's no reason to play the "Oops All Spells" deck over ANT, TES, Belcher, Elves or Dredge. All five of those decks are superior combo decks.

  16. #36
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    And what if I were to ask you how Griselbrand would be if it was just a Force of Grisel that cost and countered spells? It's dumb and I don't care.

    Delver of Secrets is clearly a good creature, but it is not oppressively good and it neither breaks flavor or mechanics. Every color, even into the modern day, has a history of aggressively costed beaters that are balanced by an in-color drawback. Blue just happened to, after enough iterations, get one that worked.
    I think this is a little disingenuous - blue's aggressive creatures have historically had pretty severe drawbacks been comparatively expensive for their bodies. Maybe I'm forgetting some examples because I took a break for a few years around Worldwake but when it comes to non-Merfolk blue beaters, I still think Spindrift Drake, Serendib Efreet, Waterspout Djinn, and Sea Drake. Not exactly powerhouses. I don't think Delver should be banned, but I really dislike it and its effect on the format.

  17. #37
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Barsoom View Post
    A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game, and it's totally out of the blue color to have such a creature; the fact that blue can protect it or flip it more easily than the other colors it's another problem.
    What about it is totally out of blue's color? Does it flip when you gain ten life? Does it have deathtouch and first strike? No, it has flying and it flips on instants and sorceries. But clearly it's not something blue can mechanically do, and besides, blue's not allowed to get good creatures.

  18. #38
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Tormod View Post
    "Told ya so"
    Second.

  19. #39
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Thanks for crunching the numbers.

    I sometimes wonder if The Source could ever universally agree on a card being banworthy. Judging from all previous ban discussions and the revolving arguments in the B&R thread, the answer is no. Even Flash had plenty of supporters in its time.

    I can look at HSCK's numbers and say, "Hmmm, the aggro decks are gone," or, "The first six decks all play Brainstorm and Force of Will." In an earlier era of Magic, these would have been signs that screamed out that there was a problem with the format, but the majority of posters here seem to not be concerned with that.

    I still enjoy Legacy more than other formats, but the fun factor is greatly diminished. I'm glad I got to experience the format in its prime.
    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    What about it is totally out of blue's color? Does it flip when you gain ten life? Does it have deathtouch and first strike? No, it has flying and it flips on instants and sorceries. But clearly it's not something blue can mechanically do, and besides, blue's not allowed to get good creatures.
    it's trigger to flip is appropriate an no one is disputing that, but what the resulting creature is after if flips is too powerful. a 3/2 is too good. had it have been a 2/1 flying faerie, that would have been appropriate. for all relative purposes it could be a 3/1 and just as good. the point is that a 3 power creature with evasion for 1 mana is too powerful outside of the green/red color wheel. in fact, green only has 1 creature even comparable, wild nactal, and yet it doesn't fly or have trample even. The other color i would expect it in is red and red doesn't have anything but goblin guide. the next color i would expect is black, with maybe a 3 life loss draw back like a carnophage. even before i expected it in blue i would have seen it in white as an angel.

    the fact that it flips so easily makes it a 3/2 flyer for 1 just as wild nactal is a 3/3 for 1. if green had the choice it would gladly give up that 1 toughness to give nactal flying. so comparatively blue has THE best 1 drop creature ever printed. this under no circumstances should not happen, nor would anyone have ever expected it to.
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  20. #40

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    blue's not allowed to get good creatures.
    Not when they're so cheap to cast. Pyschatog and Morphling are blue creatures that made sense. The condition of Pyschatog to pump, or the higher casting cost and mana-intense usage of Morphling made them on style. Delver is a Sligh creature, and doesn't belong in blue. Blue Sligh = Merfolk, or it's being done wrong.

    EDIT: The words used by Apple made a much more compelling argument.

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