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Thread: 10 Months of TNN

  1. #41
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    the next color i would expect is black, with maybe a 3 life loss draw back like a carnophage.
    It'd probably be with a trigger exiling the top creature card of your graveyard every upkeep.

    Every color, every color, gets "undercosted" creatures. The only limiting factors are mechanics and flavor. Could Delver of Secrets have been a 2/2 flyer and still seen play? Absolutely, but it was printed as a 3/2. And Stoneforge Mystic was printed at 1W. And Deathrite as a 1/2. And Abrupt Decay with "can't be countered". Almost every card has an alternate universe version that could still be playable.

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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Yes, but how many where out if colour and warped the format like a black hole?
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  3. #43

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Yes, but how many where out if colour and warped the format like a black hole?
    The only other creature that I can think of that was out of color and warped the format like a black hole was Tarmogoyf. Yes, it's green but in a green-based list it is a 3/4 or 4/5 most of the time and takes longer to get there. In a blue-based list it is a 3/4 almost instantly, a 4/5 by turn 3 at the outside and frequently a 5/6 in the mid-game. It's played successfully in lists with 20+ blue spells more often than anywhere else.

    WotC does not manage their eternal meta well unless a real threat to blue dominance appears. Then they snap too and get out the ban stick.

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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    I disagree. Goyf is green by design and flavour. It's a big brutish beater that is cheap but has a weakness. It feeds off the grave so you could argue it could be Black as well, but it's non parasitic way of using the grave feels more Green to me. It brings new life from the old. Not talking about who uses it, that's not the issue at hand. Another argument for another place.

    TNN to me also feels Blue in Flavour but not in design. Knowing someone's True-Name means that you should have a level of power over them and that kind of thing, knowledge breading power is a Blue thing. The issue is the mechanical design ran way outside of what the flavor offered and they gave the card a White ability.

    Delver is by Flavour a Blue card. A maverick Mage working away on his own in a lab experimenting on himself and others. That's a Blue or Black flavoured card right there. So no issue with that. The problem is that he is Mechanically not Blue. A cheap evasive beater is a Red or Green effect, not a blue one. Hell he could have been a black card that flipped and had Fear and I think then maybe you could pass him off as in colour. But a more efficient beater than green and red both have at his cost? That's not a blue card no matter how you spin it, he should not be there.

    You can say that blue finally got its beater, ok, but I would argue it should not have a better one that the colours that traditionally have cheap beaters. Delver is Mechanically as coherent as reprinting Counterspell would be in Green. That's my problem. I can not understand why Blue has THE aggressive one drop of the game. That's not in the pie.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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  5. #45
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I disagree. Goyf is green by design and flavour. It's a big brutish beater that is cheap but has a weakness. It feeds off the grave so you could argue it could be Black as well, but it's non parasitic way of using the grave feels more Green to me. It brings new life from the old. Not talking about who uses it, that's not the issue at hand. Another argument for another place.

    TNN to me also feels Blue in Flavour but not in design. Knowing someone's True-Name means that you should have a level of power over them and that kind of thing, knowledge breading power is a Blue thing. The issue is the mechanical design ran way outside of what the flavor offered and they gave the card a White ability.

    Delver is by Flavour a Blue card. A maverick Mage working away on his own in a lab experimenting on himself and others. That's a Blue or Black flavoured card right there. So no issue with that. The problem is that he is Mechanically not Blue. A cheap evasive beater is a Red or Green effect, not a blue one. Hell he could have been a black card that flipped and had Fear and I think then maybe you could pass him off as in colour. But a more efficient beater than green and red both have at his cost? That's not a blue card no matter how you spin it, he should not be there.

    You can say that blue finally got its beater, ok, but I would argue it should not have a better one that the colours that traditionally have cheap beaters. Delver is Mechanically as coherent as reprinting Counterspell would be in Green. That's my problem. I can not understand why Blue has THE aggressive one drop of the game. That's not in the pie.
    Agree, tarmogoyf should be green; see lhurgoyf originally from ice age. if Tarmogoyf costed BG instead if 1G there probably wouldn't be such an outrage about him.

    Disagree with TNN being blue. TNN should be white; see runed halo. protection is a white kinda thing, and so is a decent aggro body see spirit of the labyrinth, thalia,.
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    You misunderstand. TNN is Blue in flavour. Forget the effect, what he is, a person that knows your true name and uses it to gain power over you, that's a blue concept. The rest of the card is white. But the idea behind it, it's blue. White would not care to know your true name nor would it seek to use it. Flavourly Blue TNN is, mechanically it's White.

    Edit.
    I would like to add that as a concept I think TNN is dam cool. That idea of knowing someone so well you could work out their true name and use it over them? Yea that's cool. Would have worked well on a flip card. It is had come down where you have this Mage working away to work out your personality and the once it does it (say it gets a counter each time you play a spell with a different name and needs 5 to flip) it becomes this all powerful beast against you. Now that would be a cool card.
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  7. #47

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    The thing with all of these arguments though is that TNN, which I have never played more than 2-of and tend to play just 1 now, is not a god-awful beating the way that both Goyf and Delver can be if you can't answer them. TNN is not warping the format because he's just not good enough to justify building a list around nor to throw into most lists that could run him. If you get him up with a Jitte or SoFI and attack a couple of times then yeah you will win that game 90% of the time but both the equipments are easily destroyed and usually this is what happens.

    Delver is too much damage early on and too evasive for that amount of damage. When I flip a Delver on turn 2 I win a large percentage of the time. The bug is so good that he's worth Dazing to protect, a no-no for any other creature including DRS. Goyf goes into everything I play x4 because when you play him early he demands an answer and when you play him late he wins the game. He's the only playable creature that makes TNN stay at home consistently waiting to draw an equipment.

    Either of these should be banned before TNN goes. Vendilion Clique should probably go before TNN goes. I play 1 of her alongside the TNN in a lot of lists and I wouldn't replace either singleton for a 2nd of the other.

  8. #48

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    The thing with all of these arguments though is that TNN, which I have never played more than 2-of and tend to play just 1 now, is not a god-awful beating the way that both Goyf and Delver can be if you can't answer them. TNN is not warping the format because he's just not good enough to justify building a list around nor to throw into most lists that could run him. If you get him up with a Jitte or SoFI and attack a couple of times then yeah you will win that game 90% of the time but both the equipments are easily destroyed and usually this is what happens.

    Delver is too much damage early on and too evasive for that amount of damage. When I flip a Delver on turn 2 I win a large percentage of the time. The bug is so good that he's worth Dazing to protect, a no-no for any other creature including DRS. Goyf goes into everything I play x4 because when you play him early he demands an answer and when you play him late he wins the game. He's the only playable creature that makes TNN stay at home consistently waiting to draw an equipment.

    Either of these should be banned before TNN goes. Vendilion Clique should probably go before TNN goes. I play 1 of her alongside the TNN in a lot of lists and I wouldn't replace either singleton for a 2nd of the other.
    Goyf is not that good anymore. It is all situational...

    Goyf is utterly terrible against Young Pyromancer for example.

    Best creature in the format is Deathrite Shaman by far.

  9. #49
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle View Post
    Goyf is not that good anymore. It is all situational...

    Goyf is utterly terrible against Young Pyromancer for example.

    Best creature in the format is Deathrite Shaman by far.
    not that good is a terrible way of describing goyf. he is your quintessential grizzly bears on steroids... on average i would say that goyf on t2 is a 3/4 for 1G, which leaves it splash able. by this comparison it is twice as good as a grizzly bears on average. on T3, he become even greater, possibly a 5/6 for 1G, at which point is incontestably over powered.

    If I was an aggro player this is the first card that goes into ALL of my decks. evasion or not no one could reasonably disagree that goyf is the most efficient beater and should be included in any aggro strategy involving green.
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  10. #50

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    not that good is a terrible way of describing goyf. he is your quintessential grizzly bears on steroids... on average i would say that goyf on t2 is a 3/4 for 1G, which leaves it splash able. by this comparison it is twice as good as a grizzly bears on average. on T3, he become even greater, possibly a 5/6 for 1G, at which point is incontestably over powered.

    If I was an aggro player this is the first card that goes into ALL of my decks. evasion or not no one could reasonably disagree that goyf is the most efficient beater and should be included in any aggro strategy involving green.
    Yep, Goyf is the every fattie. He's fat against small creatures on turn 2, he's fat against medium sized creatures on turns 3 and 4, he's fat against endgame beaters on turn 5+. He's a win when you and the opponent are in top deck mode and you flip him. (albeit Miracles is an exception to every rule of thumb ever created in competitive Magic.)

    He also belongs in almost every control list that splashes green although many do not play him. He's a wall that can attack in those lists and why he has fallen out of favor is unclear to me. I tend towards aggro in the lists I play but the mid-range lists all have 4 Goyfs and the mid-range control lists do also unless what I am doing is just hostile to all creatures in general.

    Given that the green splash enables Krosan Grip in the sideboard I don't think any mid-range blue list should be made without 4 Goyfs unless it specifically denies all graveyards or all creatures.

  11. #51

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    I have been proven wrong time and time again every time I think "Goyf is just a big dumb animal, maybe there is something better I can be doing." Goyf does something that say baleful strix does not do-win games. Because so many legacy games involve a rapid exchange of resources, often times the last goyf standing wins. Especially in say Shardless where he is an easy 6/7.

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  12. #52

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Delver is grossly out of place color pie wise. Should have been a red card or a 2/2 or 2/1 after flipping in blue. Delver I would argue is the best 1 drop in legacy right now other than brainstorm but even delver has its merits over brainstorm namely that it kills your opponent and brainstorm does not. Not to mention brainstorm is really a turn 2 or after card.

    Oops all spells isn't played because it's awful, linear as all hell, and inconsistent. Mulliganing with it feels terrible. I've played against it and it is often a straight goldfish or me duressing their IMS and that leads to a goldfishing as well. There are far too few initial mana sources in that deck. People say it's a 1 card combo. It isn't. You have to draw several cards to get to 4 mana including a spy/informer and if you draw neither spy or informer you're never winning. Naturally drawing narcomoeba is a pain too. There's a reason the deck puts up almost no results.
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  13. #53

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    People don't hate delver for being out of color, that's just always the first argument to come up after somebody has already decided they don't like a card for being good and blue because it's so hard to disprove. What about snapcaster? It's exactly the kind of creature blue should be getting these days with it's focus on utility/disruption/flexibility over raw combat stats yet everybody who was screaming for his blood before deathrite took over kept saying that he should have been red. At most I think it could be argued that he's also somewhat red. But since the flash firmly pushes him over into blue anyway, it's a moot point. If delver had been printed as a 2/2 people would be saying the same things they're saying now as long as he still saw play.

  14. #54

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Barsoom View Post
    A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game
    Which explains all those "Ban Circling Vultures" threads I'm always never seeing before.

  15. #55

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyTron View Post
    People don't hate delver for being out of color, that's just always the first argument to come up after somebody has already decided they don't like a card for being good and blue because it's so hard to disprove. What about snapcaster? It's exactly the kind of creature blue should be getting these days with it's focus on utility/disruption/flexibility over raw combat stats yet everybody who was screaming for his blood before deathrite took over kept saying that he should have been red. At most I think it could be argued that he's also somewhat red. But since the flash firmly pushes him over into blue anyway, it's a moot point. If delver had been printed as a 2/2 people would be saying the same things they're saying now as long as he still saw play.
    Er, the poster above you stated more or less exactly that. And SCM should have been red, the color that actually has given cards in graveyards flashback. Flash is a mechanic present in all colors, not the sole domain of blue. Regardless of whether or not Delver or TNN or whatever out-of-color card WotC prints is strong isn't the point. It's that they shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This argument is independent of any cards effect on the the metagame or individual strength. The fact that it is heavily played only makes it worse..
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...er-mage-red-or
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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  17. #57

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Er, the poster above you stated more or less exactly that. And SCM should have been red, the color that actually has given cards in graveyards flashback. Flash is a mechanic present in all colors, not the sole domain of blue. Regardless of whether or not Delver or TNN or whatever out-of-color card WotC prints is strong isn't the point. It's that they shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This argument is independent of any cards effect on the the metagame or individual strength. The fact that it is heavily played only makes it worse..
    What are you talking about? The post above me stated exactly what? That delver should have been a 2/1 or 2/2? The point I was trying to make is that if it was, people would still complain about it by saying the exact same things they're saying now. People don't like it being good and color-bleed is just impossible to either prove or disprove so that's the angle they usually go with. Red gave flashback on exactly one card and only to sorceries. Blue has returned instants to the hard, and allowed them to be played for free from the yard on many many cards. A fair amount of those work with sorceries as well as instants. It actually make more sense to say that red broke the color pie here, but it's debatable. Saying that all colors have gotten flash (although I can't think of any black cards at the moment) isn't the same as saying that all cards should be getting flash. Wizards usually say one color "gets" a mechanic, another has it as secondary, and one more as tertiary. The other two colors aren't supposed to have them, but that doesn't mean they never do. Blue has flash because it's the tricky color. Even if red also gets it sometimes, it's more red then blue. Snapcaster is not more red then blue. At most they're equal, but I don't agree with that either. People just don't like it being a good blue card.

  18. #58

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...er-mage-red-or
    Bob and SCM. Argggh. Letting invitational winners design bears with benefits is a mistake. The minimum cc they should be allowed to craft is 5 and the cards should be costed out to be only a 10% bump over what a normal 5cc would do.

  19. #59

    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...er-mage-red-or
    If your argument hinges on Maro knowing what he's talking about then you've already lost. A good part of his job is to function as a (terrible) PR guy. He's well know for saying what he thinks people want to hear to cover his own ass, and people have been very vocal about hating snappy. You're talking about the guy who was solely responsible for Tarmo when he thought people we're going to like it, and suddenly had very little to do with it after people started complaining. He also promised that Mythics wouldn't be tournament staples and that he designs bad cards on purpose for our own well being. You don't want this guy in your corner.

  20. #60
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    Re: 10 Months of TNN

    Just because the answer is not the one you want is no reason to shoot the messenger. That's a black and white answer from the mother ship. Snap should have been red. Whatever else you want to think, that's the reality of the situation.

    Anyway, your looking for a fight, so I think I will just leave until you go somewhere else.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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