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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

  1. #5801
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by rubblekill View Post
    My question was due to my ignorance and lack of experience in the only pw.dec department. So: for a PW-only deck, what's the strongest colour combination in your experience: junk or bug? I'm curious.
    I don't have any experience with Junk PW. The list I gave was a quickly drawn one based on my experience.

    The Walker Fit version I play is a BUG one (since 2013 & before Mc Darby). It was imagined from the old control BUG Pernicious Jace.

    Jace + Liliana are obviously an amazing machine.

  2. #5802
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    I don't have any experience with Junk PW. The list I gave was a quickly drawn one based on my experience.

    The Walker Fit version I play is a BUG one (since 2013 & before Mc Darby). It was imagined from the old control BUG Pernicious Jace.

    Jace + Liliana are obviously an amazing machine.
    I do not believe I have ever lost a game with them online. I am currently playing a BUG control list with the aforementioned as well as 2 deeds but no Vets.
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  3. #5803

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    @ Thread:

    The problem with a non blue PW shell is that you just cannot BS away PW that rot in your hands.

    This is a major con of any non blue PW shell and one that anyone should be aware of.

    To avoid such things:
    - Play PW that are castable (=< 4 or 5 cmc maximum)
    - Play many different PW instead of only Jace & Lili in the blue shells


    @ Emesyu

    Sorin's ultimate should not be overlooked... It has turned many many many tides of games...(And here you can put your trust in my experience).
    Haha I believe you! Honestly most of the time looking at PW I don't even look at the ultimate since I assume it won't happen and if it does I'll be winning enough otherwise, whether or not that is a correct approach. I think my reservation with Sorin LoI was 'diluting the plan' away from aggressively trying to go wide/beat down with tokens, but if, as Ricardio suggests, we focus more on a control plan, the ultimate becomes more likely and the lifegain might help get us there too. I'm still not sure what role is better suited to a PW build. I like your idea of diversifying PWs as well, but also see merit in Gideon, Ally of Zendikar again here as even if you draw one with one on board, you can always 'cash out' the on-board one for the anthem token (since it is probably always just 0'ing to poop out tokens unless you are actively trying to close out the game). It's not the same as having 3 unique PW on the board or something like that (in which case you probably are winning anyway) but it helps make him less of a brick draw.

    also @ the Jace+Liliana combo being unbeatable, ughhhh the flavorrrr

  4. #5804
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    I have a few things to take care of, but I'll try to update the planeswalker analysis that I did back in Theros. It seems like it'll be relevant to the upcoming discussions.

    I think the most important thing we can do in the meantime is try to figure out what the optimal spell distribution is. Are there any other green creatures with spell-like abilities that we can leverage to cut down on actual spell slots? I'm not sure that there are. I''d be happiest with something like this:

    ~2-3 pw maindeck
    4 Therapy
    4 Zenith
    4 Path
    2 Vindicate
    1 Pulse/Anguished
    2-3 Deed
    1 Deluge
    3 Truths
    1 Sylvan
    1 Top

    Taking the ranges at their lowest, this is 25 spells, from me literally just sitting down at my keyboard and going, huh, what all spells would I ideally like to play?

    Even assuming the 61 classic, that leaves us room for 14 creatures /max/, with only 12 if we make room for the 3rd PW and the 3rd Deed -- and I'm probably 1 lower on Sylvan/Top than I should be, at that.

    Assuming we stick with 4 Zenith, I want Sakura, Eternal Witness, Tireless Tracker, Sigarda, Gitrog, and D.L. Dromoka for sure. That's 6/12. 5 split 1-cmc ramp creatures pushes us to 11/12, which leaves room for Master of the Wild Hunt, probably? This is so creature light :/

    I'll think about it for a bit and return with a deep look at planeswalkers.

  5. #5805

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    ~2-3 pw maindeck
    4 Therapy
    4 Zenith
    4 Path
    2 Vindicate
    1 Pulse/Anguished
    2-3 Deed
    1 Deluge
    3 Truths
    1 Sylvan
    1 Top

    Taking the ranges at their lowest, this is 25 spells, from me literally just sitting down at my keyboard and going, huh, what all spells would I ideally like to play?

    Even assuming the 61 classic, that leaves us room for 14 creatures /max/, with only 12 if we make room for the 3rd PW and the 3rd Deed -- and I'm probably 1 lower on Sylvan/Top than I should be, at that.

    Assuming we stick with 4 Zenith, I want Sakura, Eternal Witness, Tireless Tracker, Sigarda, Gitrog, and D.L. Dromoka for sure. That's 6/12. 5 split 1-cmc ramp creatures pushes us to 11/12, which leaves room for Master of the Wild Hunt, probably? This is so creature light :/

    I'll think about it for a bit and return with a deep look at planeswalkers.
    IMO If you're playing Tireless Tracker, you don't necessarily also want 3 copies of Painful Truths. Can probably go to 1 or 2 when we have Library as well.

    Vindicate variants could also be lowered when you consider that your planeswalkers will help out with that task somewhat also (Obnix, Vraska, Garruk, Sorin, Elspeth all providing some removal).

    You're playing 14-15 interaction spells without including walkers or any interactive creatures.

    Sigarda, Gitrog and DLD might be too much steak and not enough potatoes, particularly when you're also planning on running combat walkers.

  6. #5806

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    It's refreshing to see people come to the realisation that rhino isn't the god he once was.

    We have a game plan against combo, one against aggro and one against midrange. But we fail against control.

    My thought on wincondtions with Nic Fit against other control decks is as such: Overwhelm the opponents removal.
    There are two ways you can do this.
    1) Play so many threats that they can't answer them all. This is the route I have been taking with SFM using SoFaI and BSK to turn any little guy into a killing machine.
    2) Overwhelm only a certain type of removal spell. For example, play 3 win conditions along curve that have hexproof to blank STP etc and overwhelm terminus/deluge etc. Or the planeswalkers route, blank all creature removal and overwhelm councils judgment / pulses and make them commit creatures for our deeds.

    For me Rhino never played into either of those plans and as such made the miracles match up worse.

    I've also been pondering on a Planeswalker build recently too. I want to make 90% of miracles removal spells useless. Can you imagine how sweet that would be? Obviously the deck wouldn't be built FOR miracles, you'd still play vet and therapy. But if you're winning by grinding out walkers, you can start to play things like ensnaring bridge. Blanks a lot of threats in the formats and protects your planeswalkers. You can win through it with Big Sorin and Ob Nixilis ultimate.

    Hvnt got any deck ideas yet, just putting recent thoughts up and I'm happy to see others are thinking along similar lines. What colours are best for walkers? Probably BUG right? Would Junk be that far behind?

    Edit: Is this crazy? Here's my numbers, though call them maybes.

    3 Top
    1 Painful

    4 Vet
    4 STE/Drs
    2 Ewit/Fatty

    3 Lili
    1 Elspeth
    1 Gideon
    1 Garruk Relent/Garruk Wild (ramps so hard!)
    1 Ob nixilis
    1 Vraska/Ob
    1 Sorin

    4 Therapy
    3 STP
    2 Decay
    2 Pulse
    2 Deed
    2 Bridge

  7. #5807
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jain_Mor View Post
    It's refreshing to see people come to the realisation that rhino isn't the god he once was.

    We have a game plan against combo, one against aggro and one against midrange. But we fail against control.

    My thought on wincondtions with Nic Fit against other control decks is as such: Overwhelm the opponents removal.
    There are two ways you can do this.
    1) Play so many threats that they can't answer them all. This is the route I have been taking with SFM using SoFaI and BSK to turn any little guy into a killing machine.
    2) Overwhelm only a certain type of removal spell. For example, play 3 win conditions along curve that have hexproof to blank STP etc and overwhelm terminus/deluge etc. Or the planeswalkers route, blank all creature removal and overwhelm councils judgment / pulses and make them commit creatures for our deeds.

    For me Rhino never played into either of those plans and as such made the miracles match up worse.

    I've also been pondering on a Planeswalker build recently too. I want to make 90% of miracles removal spells useless. Can you imagine how sweet that would be? Obviously the deck wouldn't be built FOR miracles, you'd still play vet and therapy. But if you're winning by grinding out walkers, you can start to play things like ensnaring bridge. Blanks a lot of threats in the formats and protects your planeswalkers. You can win through it with Big Sorin and Ob Nixilis ultimate.

    Hvnt got any deck ideas yet, just putting recent thoughts up and I'm happy to see others are thinking along similar lines. What colours are best for walkers? Probably BUG right? Would Junk be that far behind?
    My point on the walkers, as Tao talked about what, two weeks ago? Thanks Tao :P

    I think for walkers, here's the thing - Big Sorin is great, but playing two, I saw him TOO much. I feel like we want one at most.

    Lord of Innistrad is great, and so are Relentless both for overrun and tutoring, as well as Knight-Errant. I know double white sucks, but she's a tank combat walker, let's be real. I'd be down to see:

    1 Sorin, Grim Motherfucker
    1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    1-2 Garruk Relentless
    1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

    The only reason I don't love Liliana is ditching cards you cannot rebuy. Jund can easily rebuy, and I think BUG needs more removal since you don't have Path.

    I still think Rhino is EXCELLENT as a card, especially against Delver and midrange, but as we're certainly all seeing, he cuts very little mustard against Miracles because he attacks the path they're good at defeating. With the walker plan, it also means we're likely not running Teeg against Miracles anymore, so we have less collateral damage that we're always worried about running Teeg.

    I think this is what I'm after - I want to improve Miracles and still stay sharp against Midrange, and walkers can do this, whether it be BUG or Junk. I'm okay giving up a few percentage points against Delver and some other decks to build an excellent anti-combo sideboard, with a smattering of cards for other matchups to either win or shore up.

    I feel like Rhino stays in the deck, but perhaps he's just not our path to victory against Miracles, and pushing him with other cards to try to make him BETTER in THAT matchup isn't what we want.

    So, we also want GSZ density.

    So, why not like so, to follow this model (also, Sylvan is nuts, please play it):

    ~2-3 pw maindeck (2 Relentless, 1 KE; 2 Sorin in the board)
    4 Therapy
    4 Zenith
    4 Path (I'd probs run 3, just sayin')
    2 Vindicate
    1 Pulse/Anguished
    2-3 Deed
    1 Deluge
    3 Truths
    1 Sylvan
    1 Top (Might want 2 Top, but I agree, I've been wanting more hard draw, ala Sylvan, for a little while now).

    Plus a robust creature suite. Sigarda continually proves to be my beatstick of choice. Going wide could be done with Deranged Hermit.

    Sorry to end mid-thought. Gtg gym!
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  8. #5808
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Why not a 1 garruk 1 gideon ally instead of 2 garruks? They can be in play together and gideon puts additional options on the table

  9. #5809
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Lorwyn 5:

    Jace Beleren -- utility. Best with Sun Titan, which is a color nonbo. Worse than other Jaces in absence of legend rule.
    Chandra Nalaar -- utility....no.
    Ajani Goldmane -- utility....no.
    Liliana Vess -- utility. Reasonable option. 5-spot is rough, but it keeps them hellbent forever and the ult is scary. Can also Demonic Tutor with Top in play.
    Garruk Wildspeaker -- utility. Can make a dude, but costs loyalty = bad. Untapping lands could be sweet but Wasteland discourages us from running many cool lands.

    Shards:

    Elspeth, Knight-Errant -- combat. All-star for white based versions.
    Sarkhan Vol -- utility. This actually seems like something that we should consider. Can take their scary thing, or can give a recently played/zenithed guy haste. Ult should win the game.
    Tezzeret, the Seeker -- utility. Maybe if some artifact combo ala Vault-Key gets printed.
    Ajani Vengeant -- utility. Strong option but suffers from colors -- RW is bad for Nic Fit.
    Nicol Bolas, PW -- utility. Arguably the strongest planeswalker in terms of abilities, but Grixis is basically unplayable for Nic Fit.

    Zendikar:

    Nissa Revane -- combat (by virtue of summoning a Chosen). There may be some weird Elves/Nic Fit hybrid somewhere, but I doubt it.
    Chandra Ablaze -- haha.
    Sorin Markov -- utility. Very color-intensive, but that could be used to our advantage. I could see a straight G/B version with this guy and Grey Merchant.
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- utility. Obviously one of the best ever.
    Gideon Jura -- combat. This guy is underused imo. Can completely take over a board state, and gets abusive with strong / deathtouching blockers, then proceeds to win game. Downside is that he animates, rendering him open to StP.
    Sarkhan the Mad -- utility. Strong consideration for jund colors -- has card advantage, can make a Veteran into a 5/5 flyer, ult is lulzy but Broodmate is a card we sometimes play.

    Mirrodin 2.0:

    Elspeth Tirel -- combat. worse than other Elspeths.
    Venser, the Sojourner -- utility. Powerful set of abilities, but UW is a bad color combination for Nic Fit.
    Koth of the Hammer -- combat. Probably not good enough for our purposes.
    Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas -- combat. Powerful abilities, but needs a very specific build to be taken advantage of. I give the nod to combat because if he animates something that was already in play, it can attack out of nowhere...but he has a lot of utility too.
    Karn Liberated -- utility. 2nd most powerful next to Bolas. Castable by any Nic Fit -- only really usable as a singleton, but is definitely strong. Note that his utility is somewhat combative -- why attack Jace TMS when you can just straight exile him?

    Innistrad:

    Liliana of the Veil -- utility. Obviously insane. Not a huge fan of her in Nic Fit, but she can certainly be good for certain builds in certain situations.
    Garruk Relentless -- combat. One of the better Garruks. Flipping can be challenging, but is generally fine as a wolfblossom with upside.
    Sorin, Lord of Innistrad -- combat. One of the best combat options. Lifelinking chumpers/attackers adds Time, emblem can be used when on beatdown, ult is very powerful.
    Tamiyo, the Moon Sage -- utility. I like Tamiyo, but she's never really actually good enough.
    Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded -- you're kidding, right.

    Return to Ravnica:

    Jace, Architect of Thought -- utility. Powerful card, but better suited to modern where we don't have the 'best' Jace.
    Vraska, the Unseen -- utility. Good removal I guess, but the rest of her kit is kind of mediocre.
    Domri Rade -- utility. Solid card advantage in conjunction with Top, but our creatures tend to be smaller than your average Goyf, and thus the -2 is probably irrelevant. Getting him to emblem seems strong, though.
    Ral Zarek -- utility. Ultimate is nuts for Nic Fit, but he's in bad colors for us and the rest of his kit leaves to be desired. Probably unplayable.
    Gideon, Champion of Justice -- utility.....and no.

    Theros:

    Elspeth, Sun's Champion -- combat. My pick for most underrated on the list. Yes, she conflicts with the other playable Elspeth. Yes, this Elspeth costs 6. However, 3 dudes for +1 is absolutely bonkers, and her wrath takes out a lot of problems. Ill-positioned against Delver and True-Name, but she's very strong against basically everything else, especially Eldrazi.
    Xenagos, the Reveler -- combat. His wolfblossom is better than Garruk's, since Satyrs have haste. He can also serve as mana generation should that be needed. His ultimate is lackluster, but he's probably still slightly better than Garruk Relentless if you're in GR since Relentless flips so rarely.
    Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -- utility. He/she/it is fast, at 3-mana (which means easily t2able after Therapy/Explorer). He/She/It protects themselves by putting something taken into play, which most of legacy's CMC is so low that they'll always be able to get something. Has shown to be fairly good.
    Kiora, the Crashing Wave -- utility. The meta goes too wide for her, sadly, and her low starting loyalty is a deal breaker. No.
    Ajani, Mentor of Heroes -- utility. Kind of a question mark. Might show up once in a while, but am inclined to rate No.

    Core Set Upgrades:

    Ajani, Caller of the Pride -- ....no
    Chandra Pyromaster -- utility. Good card advantage, reasonable +1, useless ultimate. I'd guess that she's playable in the same way as she is in modern -- as a 1-of for value.
    Chandra, the Firebrand -- utility. Interesting kit with interesting abilities. Her -2 is very build-around. Her +1 is whatever, and her ult is whatever. But copying a Zenith for 5 is insane, let alone if we go deeper. Still almost certainly worse than Flamecaller.
    Jace, Memory Adept -- -- utility. This guy amuses me. He's worse than Jace TMS in the abstract, but he actually kills a lot quicker. Potentially relevant against Miracles and other slow matchups, if you can control their graveyard interactions.
    Garruk, Primal Hunter -- combat. Good guy, mana intensive, but produces powerful tokens and threatens card advantage. Ult wins the game on the next untap...or immediately if there's a Sarkan Vol involved.
    Garruk, Caller of Beasts -- utility. Utility Garruk is bad Garruk. I would rather play Free Cloak over this guy.
    Liliana of the Dark Realms -- utility. no.
    Jace, the Living Guildpact -- utility. No.
    Nissa Worldwaker -- combat. I don't like lands being exposed to removal, let alone our own Deeds. No.

    Conspiracy:

    Dack Fayden -- utility - no.

    Khans of Tarkir:

    Sorin, Solemn Visitor -- combat. +1 is very powerful if you have a board state. -6 can be very hard, if not impossible, for some decks to win through. I think this Sorin is generally worse than Lord of Innistrad and Grim Nemesis, though. No.
    Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker -- hybrid. Sarkhan's +1 is a heavily combat ability, but his -3 is a heavily utility ability. His ultimate is likely unreasonable. Due to the nature of his +1 (indestructible, not hexproof), he gets a "no."
    Ugin, the Spirit Dragon -- utility. Fantastic planeswalker, only held back by his steep 8-mana cost, which basically requires a deeper level of ramping than just Veteran is capable of achieving.
    Narset Transcendent -- utility, but no.
    Sarkhan Unbroken -- utility, but no. This Sarkhan is three colors (not on color), and while his abilities are reasonable, he's worse than other Sarkhan iterations.

    Origins:

    Kytheon, Hero of Akros -- combat. Animation is a weakness, and indestructible isn't the best keyword. No.
    Liliana, Heretical Healer -- utility. Strong in Pod lists, not the greatest elsewhere. Not a firm "no," but would require special considerations to use.
    Jace, Vryn's Prodigy -- utility. Nothing really needs to be said about this guy. If you have a deck that has space for him and can use him, he's almost as powerful as Mind Sculptor. Strong.
    Nissa, Vastwood Seer -- utility. Zenithable, which is noteworthy. Best in Sun Titan shells, but not generally awful elsewhere. She's not the strongest green walker, but being tutorable is real.
    Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh -- utility. Absolutely not.

    Battle for Zendikar:

    Gideon, Ally of Zendikar -- combat. Animates, and is small than most Goyfs. Making a 2/2 every turn for free is strong, and his emblem is generally worse than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's. Probably worse than Elspeth, Knight Errant and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad overall, although making 2/2s compared to their 1/1s is notable.
    Kiora, Master of Depths -- utility. Could have been a contender while Dig Through Time was legal. Not likely to ever do anything else. No.
    Ob Nixilis Reignited -- utility. Competes with Vraska - has a similar -3, but actually has the rest of his kit. Draws cards vs slow matchups, ultimate will inevitably win the game...might take a while, but he'll get there. Decent option to consider.
    Nissa, Voice of Zendikar -- utility...ish. I don't think this card is good enough unless you're doing something weird with her tokens. I think Avenger of Zendikar will trigger on to her tokens, but am not sure. Looks like a worse version of Ajani Goldmane to me -- only real strength is that she costs 3 mana and is on core color. It's possible just +1ing her to ult and never -2ing is a reasonable line of play.
    Chandra, Flamecaller -- hybrid. She slices, she dices. She pressures opponents and planeswalkers well, she draws a bunch of cards, and/or she's a quality sweeper. This card is very impressive, but does cost 6 mana.

    Shadows over Innistrad:

    Sorin, Grim Nemesis -- utility. Shines in slow, grindy matchups where we can leverage Sylvan Library, Volrath's Stronghold, and Top to make him kill the opponent while drawing us an extra card. -X is decent at controlling the board, but can get overwhelmed by things that go wide. Also, costs 6, which is a drawback. Competes with Lord of Innistrad for the title of most playable Sorin.
    Arlinn Kord -- combat. Her best ability is her human-side +1, but her other abilities are worth remembering. Generally speaking she will be a worse Sarkhan Vol, however.
    Jace, Unraveler of Secrets -- utility. No.
    Nahiri, the Harbinger -- utility. I don't know how we would be able to play her effectively due to mana cost, but her power level is certainly there. Worth remembering that she exists.

    Updated to Shadows over Innistrad.

    Summary:

    Good walkers:
    Elspeth, Knight Errant
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Garruk Relentless
    Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    Elspeth, Sun's Champion
    Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
    Garruk, Primal Hunter
    Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
    Nissa, Vastwood Seer
    Ob Nixilis Reignited
    Chandra, Flamecaller
    Sorin, Grim Nemesis

    Worth considering but not great:
    Liliana Vess
    Sarkhan Vol (could move up a category upon ever being tested)
    Gideon Jura
    Sarkhan the Mad
    Karn Liberated
    Liliana of the Veil (great in some builds, but not all)
    Vraska the Unseen
    Xenagos, the Reveler
    Sorin, Solemn Visitor
    Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
    Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    Nissa, Voice of Zendikar

    Role players:
    Garruk Wildspeaker
    Tezzeret the Seeker
    Nissa Revane
    Sorin Markov
    Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    Domri Rade
    Chandra, Pyromaster
    Chandra, the Firebrand
    Jace, Memory Adept
    Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
    Liliana, Heretical Healer
    Arlinn Kord

    Unplayable:
    Jace Beleren
    Chandra Nalaar
    Ajani Goldmane
    Ajani Vengeant
    Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
    Chandra Ablaze
    Venser, the Sojourner
    Elspeth Tirel
    Koth of the Hammer
    Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
    Jace, Architect of Thought
    Ral Zarek
    Gideon, Champion of Justice
    Kiora, the Crashing Wave
    Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
    Ajani, Caller of the Pride
    Garruk, Caller of Beasts
    Liliana of the Dark Realms
    Jace, the Living Guildpact
    Nissa, Worldwaker
    Dack Fayden
    Narset Transcendent
    Sarkhan the Unbroken
    Kytheon, Hero of Akros
    Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
    Kiora, Master of Depths
    Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
    Nahiri, the Harbinger -- strong, but colors

    Tibalt:
    Tibalt

  10. #5810

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    @Arian, fantastic, I shall devour this. Love Tibalts rank.

  11. #5811
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jain_Mor View Post
    It's refreshing to see people come to the realisation that rhino isn't the god he once was.

    We have a game plan against combo, one against aggro and one against midrange. But we fail against control.

    My thought on wincondtions with Nic Fit against other control decks is as such: Overwhelm the opponents removal.
    There are two ways you can do this.
    1) Play so many threats that they can't answer them all. This is the route I have been taking with SFM using SoFaI and BSK to turn any little guy into a killing machine.
    2) Overwhelm only a certain type of removal spell. For example, play 3 win conditions along curve that have hexproof to blank STP etc and overwhelm terminus/deluge etc. Or the planeswalkers route, blank all creature removal and overwhelm councils judgment / pulses and make them commit creatures for our deeds.

    For me Rhino never played into either of those plans and as such made the miracles match up worse.

    I've also been pondering on a Planeswalker build recently too. I want to make 90% of miracles removal spells useless. Can you imagine how sweet that would be? Obviously the deck wouldn't be built FOR miracles, you'd still play vet and therapy. But if you're winning by grinding out walkers, you can start to play things like ensnaring bridge. Blanks a lot of threats in the formats and protects your planeswalkers. You can win through it with Big Sorin and Ob Nixilis ultimate.

    Hvnt got any deck ideas yet, just putting recent thoughts up and I'm happy to see others are thinking along similar lines. What colours are best for walkers? Probably BUG right? Would Junk be that far behind?

    Edit: Is this crazy? Here's my numbers, though call them maybes.

    3 Top
    1 Painful

    4 Vet
    4 STE/Drs
    2 Ewit/Fatty

    3 Lili
    1 Elspeth
    1 Gideon
    1 Garruk Relent/Garruk Wild (ramps so hard!)
    1 Ob nixilis
    1 Vraska/Ob
    1 Sorin

    4 Therapy
    3 STP
    2 Decay
    2 Pulse
    2 Deed
    2 Bridge

    Sooooo close to the list im actually playing that had me thinking about groundbreakers applications. when i get off work ill edit with the list that evolved from the now pages ago helm/leyline version based on non creature permanent based hate cards and walkers.

    I would like to say ebridge md is way underratted and plays into our game plan in our worst matchups phenomenaly as does the 1 of trinisphere. They are almost never bad and slow the game down enough to leverage our mana advantages.

  12. #5812

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by uncletiggy View Post
    Sooooo close to the list im actually playing that had me thinking about groundbreakers applications. when i get off work ill edit with the list that evolved from the now pages ago helm/leyline version based on non creature permanent based hate cards and walkers.

    I would like to say ebridge md is way underratted and plays into our game plan in our worst matchups phenomenaly as does the 1 of trinisphere. They are almost never bad and slow the game down enough to leverage our mana advantages.
    Look forward to it.
    The more I think about it the more I want to play 3-4 bridges so you get multiples in play. Miracles can't win through it without Jace. BG decks can answer it but they will suffer to our Planeswalker heavy plan. Eldrazi struggle with it.

    It's like a deed that only costs 3 mana, it blanks their creatures. You empty your hand with discard, Liliana and permanents (our spells don't cantrip like blue decks) and then we can still use top to dig.

  13. #5813

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Navsi View Post
    Some GSZ math for you guys to look at.

    4 Zeniths

    Odds of a zenith in opening hand: 39%
    Odds of a zenith in first 10 cards: 52%
    Oddz of no zenith in first 15 cards: 31%

    3 Zeniths
    Odds of a zenith in opening hand: 31%
    Odds of a zenith in first 10 cards: 42%
    Oddz of no zenith in first 15 cards: 42%

    2 Zeniths
    Odds of a zenith in opening hand: 22%
    Odds of a zenith in first 10 cards: 30%
    Oddz of no zenith in first 15 cards: 57%

    1 Zenith
    Odds of a zenith in opening hand: 11%
    Odds of a zenith in first 10 cards: 16%
    Oddz of no zenith in first 15 cards: 75%

    ----

    IMO Zenith isn't something we should consider removing. We are (apparently) happy to play 4 copies of Veteran Explorer, and Zenith is usually just straight up better. We sometimes have relatively few targets (say, 12) but that's not necessarily a problem.

    We want our Zenith to always have reasonable targets. There are these scenarios where we might need something:
    The main scenario I was considering was that you're looking for a specific answer, in that case you have not just the Zenith but the actual card, so if you're running 4/1 you want to compute the odds for 5 hits, if you're running 1/1 it's for 2 hits. You also have to consider the effect from Top, we see more than 15 cards in a game, but going with that.

    With a 5 of you're 77.6% to see your card, with fewer hits it's 69.4%, 58.5%, and 44.1%, depending on how many times you actually want to cast GSZ that game, you could be fine just getting to cast it once rather than twice if the only thing you're looking for is random utility creatures.

    I prefer GSZ as a 4 of but I also run a very creature centric list and frequently fire my GSZ's off as land drops with Arbor. My suggestion to reduce it was in response to a list which ran 12 creatures, 6 of those being manadorks and not all were even GSZ'able

    We need a reasonable number of ramp creatures to actually execute our game plan. The only ones that are actually good are Vet, DRS, and STE at a pinch. We really don't want to run lots because they are universally garbage to draw late (bar DRS) but we want to draw one early in 99% of games. Zenith is by far the best way of solving this problem, and I don't think there is any way of solving this problem better unless you are willing to accept that you only have 8 ramp cards in the deck, so in some percentage of games you're probably going to be unable to cast all our payoff cards like Deed, walkers, and actually good creatures.
    It depends on what you're actually including, in the BUG lists for example a lot of the great cards are non green so GSZ is of reduced benefit. It's weaker in the PW decks too, and in the SFM decks. There's a lot of scenarios where you're not going to want the full 4.

  14. #5814

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by emesyu View Post
    Also, speaking specifically about the situation of deeding into an empty board with PWs on your side, is it possible that Ally Gideon is just better than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad? The WW is not exciting but otherwise it's the same CMC and the tokens it produces start applying pressure after a putative board wipe better than Sorin's 1/1 lifelinkers. Such a deck would have a lot in common with the one that just won the PT, funnily enough... I also like Garruk R though, who interacts with Master of the Wild Hunt Arianrhod brought up above incidentally
    Don't forget the emblems, Sorin's tokens can be pretty potent. Assuming neither is interacted with, Sorin is good for 16 damage in 5 turns and 25 damage in 6 turns. Gideon is good for 20 damage in 5 turns and 30 damage in 6 turns. So the question is would you rather have the lifelink or not? I think that in most cases you would, plus he's easier to cast.

  15. #5815
    I wish I could read
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Don't forget the emblems, Sorin's tokens can be pretty potent. Assuming neither is interacted with, Sorin is good for 16 damage in 5 turns and 25 damage in 6 turns. Gideon is good for 20 damage in 5 turns and 30 damage in 6 turns. So the question is would you rather have the lifelink or not? I think that in most cases you would, plus he's easier to cast.
    why not a combination of the two? there is certainly room if we isolate that as our primary wincon. lingering souls and what not to go wide and sfm to equip them up
    MTGO: Ricardio

    Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck

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  16. #5816

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Don't forget the emblems, Sorin's tokens can be pretty potent. Assuming neither is interacted with, Sorin is good for 16 damage in 5 turns and 25 damage in 6 turns. Gideon is good for 20 damage in 5 turns and 30 damage in 6 turns. So the question is would you rather have the lifelink or not? I think that in most cases you would, plus he's easier to cast.
    I'd agree that the lifelinking might be a bit better, especially if you are happy to have your tokens die from a Deed.

    Also note that Gideon is capable of 20 damage in 4 turns. Play him, make a token. Next turn attack with token, make another. Then spend next two turns attacking with 2 2/2's and Gideon himself. Of course, swinging with Gideon is a pretty big liability

  17. #5817

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by square_two View Post
    I'd agree that the lifelinking might be a bit better, especially if you are happy to have your tokens die from a Deed.

    Also note that Gideon is capable of 20 damage in 4 turns. Play him, make a token. Next turn attack with token, make another. Then spend next two turns attacking with 2 2/2's and Gideon himself. Of course, swinging with Gideon is a pretty big liability
    The other aspect is that Sorins tokens recover from deed better. The power Gideon puts on the board every turn is static, if you have 4 tokens and have to Deed you're recovering by putting 2 onto the board.

    At that same point though Sorin is going to be making 3/1's so he recovers faster, and he could even go to 4/1's in that scenario. The flip side of this is that Gideon puts more power onto the board shortly after being cast. The first turn Sorin is down he puts 1, then 2, then 4 while Gideon goes 2/4/6.

  18. #5818

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardio View Post
    why not a combination of the two? there is certainly room if we isolate that as our primary wincon. lingering souls and what not to go wide and sfm to equip them up
    How's this as a SFM token build? Less GSZ might be suspect. But there are just few targets here. 4 Planeswalking token makers, plus 2 Lingering Souls. Garruk Relentless when flipped can tutor up Sigarda which is nice. Plenty of removal to keep the walkers alive.

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Pernicious Deed
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Painful Truths
    1 Green Sun's Zenith

    2 Garruk Relentless (second could be Gideon instead)
    1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
    1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    2 Lingering Souls

    2 Phyrexian Tower
    2 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Verdant Catacombs

  19. #5819

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardio View Post
    why not a combination of the two? there is certainly room if we isolate that as our primary wincon. lingering souls and what not to go wide and sfm to equip them up
    Is WW for Gideon better than something like Garruk Relentless to make tokens? There's only room for a certain number of 4's.

  20. #5820
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    Arianrhod's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Is WW for Gideon better than something like Garruk Relentless to make tokens? There's only room for a certain number of 4's.
    My opinion is that Garruk Relentless is going to be a better option for us than Gideon AoZ will be, partially because his mana cost is much easier, partially because we can use the rest of his abilities better than we can Gideon's, and partially because that opens up the ability to run Master of the Wild Hunt, which gives us an interaction slot off of Green Sun's Zenith.

    I'm also probably going a different direction with all of this, mostly because I don't like the Stoneforge plan. I'll post something when able -- going to be entertaining a lot this weekend, so time will be crunched for a couple days.

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