I would be tempted to run top in this deck over ponder. Without force we do not need the blue of ponder and with vet we have spare mana. This deck also runs very light on mana so a mana sink for games where you have to keep a suspect hand is fine. I would also wonder if probe has any place. I know Arianrhod you are not a fan of it in Nicfit but we are now a combo deck and the information is crucial. Especially post board where lord knows what type of hate we will see. everything from surgical to rip to just more counters to containment priest. I would try to fit 4 probe. most likely this would be to shave a jace or 2 and possibly a land and the recurring nightmare.
Do you have a plan post board? Or really, do you plan to remain the same deck with adjustments or have a slightly transformational SB? I know you are a vintage player so this would be akin to how Oath is used occiasionally in that it can be boarded out and (usually) walkers get brought in or in that some decks bring in oath vs creature decks.
I would stay away from Pod, delve creatures (though a dig or 2 would probably be ok) and consider shaving 1 show. What I do like about show in this deck is it essentially is just a second copy of a titan because we can then cast the monster.
If we have the loam package in the board I would actually consider a boseju. If we did have that would exhume be better in order to make it resolve vs smth like reanimate? Just a thought.
Tangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Gurmag AnglerTangle Golem/Allosaurus Rider > Griselbrand
I would cut AD for Ponder.
I am planning on taking this list to a SCGIQ next weekend:
Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1x Siege Rhino
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Primeval Titan
Spells:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Land:
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Scrubland
4x Forest
1x Savannah
Sideboard
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment
2x Engineered Plague
1x Life from the Loam
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Spike Weaver
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Yeva, Nature's Herald
Any criticisms or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
//sb
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Massacre Wurm
2 Duress
This is the list I settled on to test at Mythic today. I went 3-2, finishing 11 out of 28. Considering I how cold I went into this event, that's actually a very solid result and I'll be continuing to work on the deck.
Played vs the following:
Imperial Painter (loss)
Junk Stoneforge (win)
Elves (win)
UR Delver (loss)
Shardless BUG (win)
Both of the losses were super close -- I was consistently one turn behind Imperial and his draws were very good on top of that, and all of my games vs UR Delver were very tight and a couple of different draws or slightly weaker Digs by my opponent could've easily tipped that.
All of my wins felt pretty solid. Junkblade was probably the hardest matchup of the matches I won, but I still felt pretty favored.
Quick hits and misses because I'm tired and want to sleep:
Hits:
Babiest Jace feels like The Truth. The card does some very unfair things, both in general and in this deck specifically.
the sideboarded TNNs were amazing
Entomb's raw flexibility is amazing -- entombing Cabal Therapy is the greatest feeling in the world, as is using Entomb as a literal 1-mana instant tutor when you have a flipped Jace.
Thrags were great when they showed up.
Never thought I'd say this, but Grave Titan was very strong. I guess making the card cost 2 or 3 mana makes it actually playable.
Reanimate for value. I reanimated multiple Veterans, Jace-Vyrns, Strixes, and opponent cards over the course of the event. All of them felt correct and powerful.
Show and Tell -- as exactly a 2 of. I wasn't high on the card going into the event, but as a 2-of it was actually fine. I would not run more.
Misses:
Thragtusk never being drawn.
Oddly, the Primeval package. I only went for it like two or three times on the day, and I only actually made one Merit Lage. The other two times I grabbed the lands, I ended up having -better- things to do than make a 20/20.
On the subject of lands, I actually felt like I was a land heavy. Brainstorms, Entombs and Reanimates to tie Veterans together tighter, Loam....all combined to make me want to draw fewer lands than usual.
Baleful Strix was added as a way to sneak in some "removal" interaction while also cycling. It did not feel as good in this deck as I expected it to. They, or some number of them, may still be correct...not sure.
Overall, the Snapcaster. It did threaten a HILARIOUSLY broken line of play involving Nightmare and an Entomb in my yard once, but overall the Jace-Vryns did what Snap wants to do, but better.
Iona was hot garbage, but I didn't play against Omni on the day. She threatened to steal g1 from Painter, though, so that's something. She's probably a necessity (also for burn), but it doesn't feel good.
The sideboard other than the TNNs. I boarded in the Grips and the Decays a fair amount, but I had trouble drawing into them. Massacre Wurm happened vs Elves but should've prob just been Elesh.
To sum:
Probably dropping the Primeval package.
Probably just cutting a land or possibly even 2 (21-22 final).
I need more ways to make Entomb valuable as a CA engine when there's nothing else to do with it. I had a couple of late Entombs that were useless on the day, so having more sweet spells to Entomb is on my short list.
I need to be a little more interactive maindeck. I miss having removal and sweepers, and I want some amount of it back. I realize I'm not going to be able to have as much as a traditional Nic Fit variety, but I want some maindeck.
That's all I can think of for now. More in the morning if there's questions/comments.
Oh, and I did try Ponder @Ralf. They didn't feel right at all -- that's where the Strix idea came from, actually. I felt I wanted more creatures and to be doing more things rather than just cantripping more, so I moved them into the Strixes from there. But yeah, they were in for probably 6-8 games Friday night and just did not feel right. Same with Probe, which was also tried. Actually, with Probe the problem was more the life loss than the deck slot being eaten. 2 life doesn't seem that incredibly steep, but it actually caused issues.
PS / closing thought: best moment of the day.
Vs Elves, g1.
Swamp go into forest symbiote go.
fetch, break, therapy myself naming Grave Titan, reanimate Grave Titan, sac a token to flashback Therapy, target him, name Elvish Visionary, hit two.
t3 swing, snapcaster reanimate a visionary.
I won that game.
So I've been mulling over the Leap deck some more, and figure this would be a good core:
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Evolutionary Leap
4x Living Wish
4x Enlightened Tutor
Lots of basics (mostly forests)
Fetchlands + 1x Dryad Arbor
Where I'm undecided now is how to fill out the rest of the deck. Should I look more into an Enchantress package for card advantage and prison pieces? Perhaps the Helm/RIP combo, or just some planeswalkers for value? Also, what are some good noncreature Enlightened Tutor pieces that would help with protecting me and the combo?
@Arianrhod: that's the first time in a long time I'm excited about a Nic Fit built. One omission that immediately jumps at me is Glen Elendra Archmage. I'm also toying with Sylvan Library. It interacts amusingly with Jace and helps with all the one-offs and situational fatties (Top might be good here as well, but I got the impression this deck wants to play a pretty aggressive and mana-efficient game). Also, FOW in the sideboard makes combo much less scary.
Anyone has a updated Junk nic-fit list? At least 3 rhinos and nightmare in the deck.
Is Sun Titan good or just cute in the junk nic fit?
Sun titan is just cute you are better served with a grave titan and there's better options. The second sigarda or the first dromoka are better evasive threats with some level of protection. You're going to want something game breaking at six mana in junk fit the four and five drops just keep getting better leaving no room for titans.
I personally still like the Sun Titan, but I tend to play more controlly and titandeed is just too insane when you're playing for control.
The few times I played sun titan I always wanted Grave. If you are splashing white I would strongly suggest 2-3 academy rectors for various and assorted bombs.
Arianrhod,
That list is absolutely outstanding!
I'm kind of new to the format but I'm really intrigued by this list, so here's some ideas towards the changes you advocated.
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Baleful Strix
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Wasteland
+2 Pernicious Deed
Wasteland can be entombed if you have a life from the loam in hand, or, more often, you can entomb for life from the loam to start a wasteland engine.
Elesh norn seems pretty decent considering the multitude of cheap creatures you play: Strix, Jace, Snapcaster, Explorer.
Pernicious deed is obvious but is a good sweeper for delver and such. Doesn't play the best with Strix and Jace but you can always try to flip Jace before you activate deed.
I had a few ideas for sideboard entomb targets, including Memory's Journey, Deep Analysis, and Vengeful Pharaoh. Pharaoh seems potentially very powerful, turning your entomb into a kill spell that is uncounterable once entomb has resolved. Pharaoh also plays well with Jace and in a pinch, a 5 mana 5/4 deathtouch isn't the worst think you could cast.
I came to a couple of these conclusions myself. My current list is thus:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Griselbrand
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Deep Analysis
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
General thoughts:
It's possibly correct to keep the Iona maindeck just to really stick it to Omni, but I want to test Sphinx of Uthuun. I will not definitively say that that guy will be staying in the deck.
Aetherling fills the Primeval Titan slot as "here is a win condition that is a royal pain in the ass to deal with." Unlike Titan/Depths, it's much less clunky and will actually beat Miracles since they can never get rid of it as long as you're intelligent about leaving phasing mana up.
I really wanted more interaction in the deck, and there were multiple times on the day where I wanted Pernicious Deed. That being said, we're running Brainstorm and we're also not as much of a control deck as traditional Nic Fit, so I opted for only two copies. I also for sure wanted a spot removal spell that I could entomb to flashback with Jace. Pulse is the strongest option here by far since you're spending 0 mana on the flashback itself, and Pulse will answer the widest array of problems.
Continuing with Entomb value, I put in a Deep Analysis. 3 life for 2 cards is a steeper rate than I really want to play, but being able to turn Entomb into cards is just too relevant to ignore, and Think Twice is not even close to as good as DA.
The Wasteland is mostly for problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Obviously some percentage of games we can do obnoxious things with Loam, but I don't expect that to happen very often.
I cut the 4th Strix and the Snapcaster to make room for the Deeds, which I think is fine. Losing a Strix was a little unfortunate, but there wasn't really any other space to make if I wanted to fit in everything new.
Sideboard mostly just features a couple of upgrades (Massacre Wurm -> Elesh, etc). I thought about running Force of Will in the sideboard, but realistically I don't know that I want to go down the road of double 4-ofs in the board. The TNNs already eat up a lot of space, but they're also basically necessary as a strong plan B post-board -- my common board plan involving them was -2 Entomb, -2 Reanimate, +4 TNN, which actually worked quite nicely. I also like diversifying the sideboard, as most of you know, and I think that 2 Duress 2 Flusterstorm is probably a stronger sideboard than 4 Force of Will in those slots.
I'm probably not going to be able to really test this any further until my local runs legacy again in two weeks, so by all means throw it together and get some work done. This deck actually felt very strong...weird, but very strong. My best advice I can give from a play perspective as opposed to a building one is to -always- keep your options open. As much as Entomb-Reanimate is nice, it's not actually always the plan. Be flexible at all times, keep in mind that your opponents' graveyard is your playground as much as your own is, and that Entomb can solve basically any problem you might be having, somehow.
I'm considering an Abzan colored Living Wish build with some bullets in the side and the DarkStage combo. Has it been tried with any success in the not too distant past? Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?
If you have your heart set on this route I would strongly suggest running KORT's, and maybe crop rotations. I have seen a couple of junk type lists of this sort.
Knight of the Reliquary is one of my favorite cards ever, and one of my incentives to try such a build. I'm less enthusiastic about Crop Rotation; I like it but the idea is that Living Wish will fill that role with a bit more reliability (at the cost of EoT shenanigans, I know).
Page 91 has my current crop rotation kotr list its a couple cards off but its a good starting point to tweak to your liking. I know ive cut atleast one land since then I believe a Savannah.
I had a list a while ago that was running living wish package with feeder/thune combo. Didn't have dark depths combo though.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Looks like 61 cards, is that intentional?
I proxied the deck and got a few matches in; will do many more this week but here's my two cents:
An entire third of the deck is CMC 1 (twenty cards). This makes early game Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance a real issue. For that reason, I think uncounterable answers to both cards are necessary (in the form of Abrupt Decay). Abrupt Decay is useful in general, stopping Lilianas and Stoneforges etc. Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are both reasonable answers but they are much too slow to stop something like a turn 1 Chalice and can be countered.
Rather than run Deep Analysis, I think it is better to just cut an Entomb and see it less often. It will still be sub-par without another card backing it up but at least you won't draw it as often. There is still Cabal Therapy and Jace to put fatties in the yard, as well as simply having them get countered and reanimating them later.
I'd rather have Elesh Norn than Sphinx of Uthuun. Sphinx is great card advantage but the fact that Elesh can sweep the board as well as put you right back on the attack is huge. You can't hardcast her and some matchups she is relatively week, but you always get a big team buff which makes her pretty relevant.
I'd love to find a place for a Sylvan Library but at this point I can't think of a logical cut for it.
Overall changes:
-1 Sphinx of Uthuun
+1 Elesh Norn
-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Entomb
+3 Abrupt Decay
(from 61 to 60 cards)
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