[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[sdematt]

So a turn 2 Siege Rhino is good against Delver. That is all.

Forest, pass.
Vet explorer, play Stronghold, sacrifice Vet, search for Forest Plains, Rhino. Ka. Boom.

-Matt

[tomatojim]

It's very pilot-dependent. Some will, some won't. There isn't really any way to know for sure. Decay is worth leaving in regardless because of random bullshit like Energy Field / Back to Basics (I know, I know, but I've had it boarded in vs me at times). It's also our primary way of solving Sensei's Top. Decaying Top in response to a fetch is very powerful. I wouldn't board any Decays out vs Miracles regardless of the Counterbalance situation, and in fact would board extra copies in if not maindecking them already.

Yeah, it doesn't make that much sense boarding (some) Decays out with hindsight. And if it's only for their SB-options or Cliques/Snapcaster to be able to attack Jace.

[jbone2016]

Yeah, it doesn't make that much sense boarding (some) Decays out with hindsight. And if it's only for their SB-options or Cliques/Snapcaster to be able to attack Jace.

I usually side out 2-3 Vets, 2 StP, a couple of therapy for thrun, SoFaF, SoFaI, 1 Canonist and 2 memorcides.

Then again....I've rarely beat it as well.

[litenkatt]

Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?

Here's one that recently did good

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438

I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler

[Bobmans]

A specific SB question: Does a Miracles pilot side out the Counterbalances against us, since we have a strange curve and decays? And hence should I side out some (or all) of my decays (at least against the 4-Ponder-list)? My opponent from R1 said he did not side them out.
Greetings!

The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:

I can help you with the nic fit part. I played nothing but nic fit for over year and still regularly play against it in locals events. There are many subarchtypes of the deck: punishing fire, Scape-wish, BUG PW control, BUG or BWG pod, or just GBx goodstuff piles. However, the strategy to beat them is mostly the same.

If they are smart they will SB out veteran explorers against you. Don't waste removal on this guy unless its stop a therapy or scapeshift. You getting 2 lands is better than them getting 2 lands most of the time.

Unless you see some pfire, academy recotor or recurring nightmare shinanigans, dont bother with GY hate. Its usually just Vet, Therapy and maybe 1 other card like eternal witness that it will effect.

Jace is king. Batterskull is also great. Non-fire builds cannot effectively remove these cards. Karakas+legend is also near unbeatable for them.

CB is pretty weak since their curve is varied and they have deed, decay and a GSZ target to kill CB.

Entreat can still steal games, but you will have to bait out deeds first.

Keep in FoW. They have a lot of meh cards, but their haymakers are must counters and this is a matchup you will regularly be snapcasting forces.

Some nic fitters think slaughter games or surgical effects are the key to winning this matchups(naming jace, entreat or FoW usually.). Those cards are terrible, but still vary your wincons so you don't get blown out, and be aware of surgical's interaction with top/miracles.

Using Philips standard 4 ponder setup, I would board like this typically:
-4 CB
-1 Stp
-2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+2 Priest
+2 Clique
+1 Judgment
+1 W/T

Against the BUG decks you want REBS. Against scapeshift you need to treat them a bit more like combo (less removal more counters BEB and counterbalance are ok). Against Pfire, you can treat them more like Jund (GY, EE or moon are all good, maybe keep in some CB but over-rely on them).

EDIT: I should add except for punishing fire version, we are favored. That matchup is even to unfavored. The GBW lists are the easiest. The BUG lists are probably 55/45, scapeshift is closer to 60/40. I don't normally say this, but the legend build, or SFM builds are definitely better positioned. The games go super long and Batterskull or legend + Karakas are very tough for them to beat.

[tomatojim]

The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:

Yup, I read that as well, so at least for punishing builds it seems reasonable to keep the Decays in, since you (could) encounter Priest, RiP, CB and Clique. Killing Top like Arianrhod mentioned or an Angel so their damage isn't lethal can also be relevant.

Do you side out all Explorers against them? I did, but maybe that's just because I want 2/3 of my SB against Miracles. Maybe you should keep one in just to be able to tutor for it in some weird situations.

That's where I'm at right now, tell me if it's too much or has general flaws:

In: 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Needle, 2x Slaughter, 1x Grip, 3x REB
Out: 1x Ooze, 1x PFire, 4x VetEx, 1x Baloth, 2x Therapy, 1x Witness

Golgari Charm is also a way to deal with Enchantments or X/1 creatures, but I'm not sure I want that as well.

[Ralf]

Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?

Here's one that recently did good

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438

I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler

Sure, I posted a list a week or so ago.

Here is where I am now:

Lands (20)

1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Creatures (10)

2 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer


Planeswalker (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Artifact (1)

1 Sensei's Divining Top


Enchantment (3)

3 Pernicious Deed


Instant (16)

1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will


Sorcery (8)

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy


Sideboard

1 Empty the Pits
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Hatred
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay


I cannot determine yet which version is stronger right now between my former post or this new list. Each list has its pros and cons.

Link to the former post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post854002

[Bobmans]

Yup, I read that as well, so at least for punishing builds it seems reasonable to keep the Decays in, since you (could) encounter Priest, RiP, CB and Clique. Killing Top like Arianrhod mentioned or an Angel so their damage isn't lethal can also be relevant.

Do you side out all Explorers against them? I did, but maybe that's just because I want 2/3 of my SB against Miracles. Maybe you should keep one in just to be able to tutor for it in some weird situations.

That's where I'm at right now, tell me if it's too much or has general flaws:

In: 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Needle, 2x Slaughter, 1x Grip, 3x REB
Out: 1x Ooze, 1x PFire, 4x VetEx, 1x Baloth, 2x Therapy, 1x Witness

Golgari Charm is also a way to deal with Enchantments or X/1 creatures, but I'm not sure I want that as well.

Personally i run 3 Vet and 4 DRS with 3 Carpet of Flowers in the board. This to avoid the akward situation of getting mana screwed against decks where i boarded out all Vet's. The upside of using DRS is that it eventually costs resources of the Miracles pilot to remove it. If he does i like to be able to extract either Terminus or STP. Also i really like Slaughter Games in this MU. Removing Entreat and Jace shuts down their main wincon. Offcourse they still run Clique, SCM, Priests and whatnot, but we can PFire and Abrupt Decay.

Switching Cabal Therapies for Thoughtseize is a bit weird, but understandable if you have trouble hitting correct cards with the therapy (experience?). You could offcourse just add the TS and run 6 discard. Needles are a bit akward also because naming SDT shuts down your own. I would say board in one to be able to shut down Karakas or Helm, but only if you know they run it. The 4 ponder build often does not.

Golgari Charm might be better against lists running RiP + Helm, against the legends build i would just go with AD and PFire sinse those are better at doing the job. AD decay hits most annoying stuff anyway. Also Krosan Grip is powerful against Miracles. REB is also a solid choice although i personally wouldn't bring more than 2. I found that playing against most decks it is better to just keep pressure and let them drain themselves instead of trying to prevent them from stopping you (this sounds logical?) with Miracles being no exeption other than SDT (+CB) keeps it going.

Lastly i also like to have a combat walker around against Miracles like Garruk since if it resolves it is hard for them to remove it outside of Council's Judgement. Spitting tokens will overwhelm them eventually unless they Entreat for lethal against you.

Having said this i must also add that i have some experience playing against Miracles and sometimes i also play Miracles, but it is still limited. The problem is that in our testing group we have no Miracles player to consistantly test against. So i can understand if people would not agree with my mostly theorycrafting.

[tomatojim]

@Bobmans

I might try it with keeping all Therapies in and bringing only 2 REBs and 1 Needle in.

I'm also thinking of playing extra copies of DRS or Carpet of Flowers in the board, maybe instead of the 3rd REB, for the matchups where I don't want Explorer. ATM I run a 4/1 split Ex/DRS.

Luckily Garruk is already in the main deck to spam tokens.

My experience with Miracles is mostly based on the RiP/Helm version, because that's the only one that exists in our local testing group. So I have less problems boarding against that version than the normal 4-Ponder-list.

Edit: Surgical Extraction will also come in, mostly for Terminus, but it's also great with Therapy.

[Arksz]

Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.

[moseby]

Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?

Here's one that recently did good

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438

I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler

Its not your typical build and I don't have the list on me but it is along the lines of Fabino's list but much more streamline; 2 Titania (may go 3) and 3 GSZ, and more trinket mages, also no planeswalkers. Note I have not play tested it but when gold fishing Titania usually starts goes bonkers around turn 6.

[bryanzoll]

The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:

(not going to re-quote the whole thread)

But I highly disagree with what the person was saying from the Miracles perspective, especially about slaughter games. I played miracles for close to a year so I have some experience from the other side of that fence. Depending on the miracles build, slaughter games either will flat out win a game completely, or slow the miracles player down to a point where they won't be able to keep up. In a traditional miracles build, there are 2 win-cons, Jace and Entreat...if you SG the EtA, the game is essentially over as long as you can apply persistent pressure (which should be easy at that point). In miracle builds where they run MD Vensers, V Cliques, etc. you still name EtA, but then it becomes for the Nic Fit player a race to land threats and keep them from killing you.

In either case...CB should not come out on their end...any Miracles player that boards out 4x CB is basically giving you the game in my opinion. At that point, they can't stop you from casting 1 of your 8 discard spells (incl flashback CT). If you just flat out wreck their hand, good luck having them recover from that (or any deck let alone).

I have experience and have play tested the miracles matchup a bit with ScapeWish. Normally, I will keep in 2 Veteran explorers. A couple of reasons, 1) I board in Carpet of Flowers, if I accelerate their lands and they get islands, they just further accelerate my game plan and we are still at an advantage...2) Probably the best of reasons, it presents a 20 turn clock or a threat they need to waste StP on. Will I bash face for 1 each turn? Hell yeah I would, before they know it they will be at 12 or so life and in a position where they need to start thinking about removing it. That right there is +1 in my opinion.

Since I play ScapeWish this is what my boarding plan looks like:

+2 Carpet of Flower
+2 REB
+2 Slaughter Games
-2 Veteran Explorer
-1 Obstinate Baloth
-1 Sakura Tribe Elder
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Pernicious Deed

[GtF]

Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.

I pretty much gave up on pod after they printed treasure cruise (and then containment priest, woof). I am planning to go back to trying out pod versions, both BUG and Junk, next week. Titania is an intriguing card that I tried out in Maverick where it wasn't very good. I am going to try it in nic fit pod next, where it seems like you will actually be able to utilize it more effectively. I am planning on playing a sylvan safekeeper to "go off" with it but it wouldn't surprise me if that ended up being bad. I'll let the thread know how it goes.

[Arksz]

I pretty much gave up on pod after they printed treasure cruise (and then containment priest, woof). I am planning to go back to trying out pod versions, both BUG and Junk, next week. Titania is an intriguing card that I tried out in Maverick where it wasn't very good. I am going to try it in nic fit pod next, where it seems like you will actually be able to utilize it more effectively. I am planning on playing a sylvan safekeeper to "go off" with it but it wouldn't surprise me if that ended up being bad. I'll let the thread know how it goes.

You can still gain tons of value off ETBs and the Pod. Playing the value game kind of sucks against cruise? The other variants still fall prey to GSZ being hit by containment priest. Just curious as to why BUG pod isn't played as much.

[uncletiggy]

@ honeyt in reference to the abzan list you posted the prime time seems awkward with only one karakas as a non mana target. Has it been worth it for you I feel like either other titan would be more threatening.

[sdematt]

Tiggy, want to post your list again?

-Matt

[tomatojim]

Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.

At our local legacy event last week there was a Pod-List in the top8 (36 players):

08. Moritz Mathes

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice Of Resurgence
1 Spike Feeder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bone Shredder
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Siege Rhino
1 Ranger Of Eos
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
1 Archangel Of Thune
1 Shriekmaw
1 Armada Wurm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
1 Chaines Of Mephistopheles
1 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Eidolon Of Rhetoric
1 Choke
1 Nether Void
1 Grave Pact
1 Painful Quandary
1 Curse Of Death's Hold
1 Academy Rector
1 Voice Of Resurgence
1 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Duress
1 Inquisition Of Kozilek
1 Hymn To Tourach

I can't really say anything about it, since I'm not into Pod, just wanted to share the list.

Greetings

[sdematt]

I've played both styles, Pod and not Pod. When Pod gets up and running, you're likely winning. The problem is, if you don't get Pod, you're stuck with some very poorly curved creatures. Basically, the deck becomes a Survival deck without Survival because you are playing quite a few bullet creatures. I like the non-Pod builds just due to consistency.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

This is where I'm at currently.

3 Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Seige Rhino
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Strangleroot Geist (flex)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda

1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Plow
1 Funeral Charm (flex)
1 Golgari Charm (flex)

3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
1 Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

6 Basics
6 Duals
7 Fetches
2 Phyrexian tower

Sb:
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

I'm debating on the deluge/deed split in the board and whether it should go the other way. The geist could be plow #3 but its been so good i cant bring myself to cut it. Whether or not I really need the relic of progenitus or if it should be another surgical. I havent fully developed my board plans for each match so im not sure yet if I have any matchups where I have way too much to bring out and not enough to bring in.

[Bobmans]

I have been pondering about the spot of Primeval Titan in my PFire list. Rampaging Baloth will be replacing his spot coming tournament. It has some solid synergy next to Courser of Kruphix, Sensei's Divining Top, Veteran Explorer and fetchlands. It might just make more impact on the board then PrimeTime. Havent actually played it yet so i am blind on if it actually works.
Also i have been testing Sarkhan the Mad and it felt a bit weird. Sometimes it does nothing and sometimes it is bonkers. It goes to the sideboard for now, while Vraska is staying mainboard. Everytime i resolved her she was more then usefull and helped me either stabilize the board or win with it.
Also Garruk, Apex Predator is on my radar and i am going to test it soon as a replacement of Sarkhan in the board but i am a bit worried that 7 mana is to much.