I have played with Garruk, AP in roughly 15ish matches. Conclusion on it was the same as any 7 drop PW...when it sticks, the game is over...when its stuck in your hand, life sucks.Originally Posted by Bobmans
I currently play ScapeWish without any PWs, there just isn't any need right now. I have been fooling around with Punishing Fit and I wouldn't touch my Lili count.
After toying with various Pod lists, I feel that BUG is the best option if you're looking to take that route. It offers the best creatures for both podding away (Baleful Strix, Glen Elendra Archmage, etc) and podding into (Phantasmal Image, Frost Titan, Consecrated Sphinx), and ultimately allows for stronger match-up flexibility.
Cowboy Magic
Nope. That was just a typing error on my part. Titan is not supposed to be in the list at all. Should just be 60 cards.
I'm playing Karakas as my 61st to bounce Thrun and Sigarda, it's been fine.
Went 3-1 yesterday losing to Burn and beating Elves, Mono White Stax, and something else.
Lovely play against my Elves opponent. He's at 3 before he stabilizes and builds up enough blockers against my massive Scooze. How does one get out of this? GSZ for Rhino, of course.
-Matt
RhinoBolts FTW
Seriously, though, JUNK Fit is looking super spicy right now. Matt, have you tested out Restoration Angel yet? I feel like the flexibility it provides would outweigh the "cuteness" factor. The usual arguments of it blocks Delver, dodges both [boring-non-rhino] Bolt and Decay apply.
What's better than a RhinoBolt? Instant speed RhinoBolts.
FTW, ofc.
You're better off using the Resto Slot for another Rhino.
Cowboy Magic
Probably true... Flying is moderately relative these days but yeah Rhino pretty much just does everything we need - even tramples through TNN
Today i played my PFire list at a small tournament and went 3-2-1. Not the best results, but the list played awesome and was able to put on some serious fights.
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Rampaging Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Wooded Foothills
Board
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Sarkhan the Mad
Round 1: UW Stasis 1-2
Game 1: I was able to get a DRS, Liliana and PFire + Grove online and he scooped with only a Tabernacle, some lands and a Howling Mine. Didn't know what he was on.
Game 2: I have some creatures, pyroblast and a GSZ. I used the Pyroblast on a Counterbalance and i nipped his life away over the turns. Finally i tap out for a GSZ into a Huntmaster and on his turn he lands Stasis and Root Maze.
Game 3: i opened with 2 Carpet of Flowers, Slaughter Games, Abrupt Decay, GSZ, Swamp and Mountain. I never find a green source and then Stasis plus Root Maze happened again.
Round 2: Burn 2-0
Not really sure how the games went, but both games i managed to stabilize midgame due to the amount of lifegain of DRS and Courser and Huntermaster seals both games.
Round 3: Dredge 1-2
Game 1: I get some decend board presence, but i couldn't find an answer for 8-9 Zombie tokens and a 16/16 grave-troll. DRS really stalled the game, but i guess Scavenging Ooze could have been a better option for GSZ during the first turns.
Game 2: I am able to slow him with a DRS and land a Scooze to take over. He has like 13 Zombie tokens and a 8/8 grave-troll, but i find a Pernicious Deed and have a 10/10 Scooze plus a Huntmaster that flips and takes his Putrid Imp to seal the deal.
Game 3: i mull to 5 and keep 2 lands, Cabal Therapy, Surgical Extraction and a Huntmaster. He lands a Gemstone, LED and a Pimp and eot discards a Bridge, Ichorid and a Thug. I get greedy and remove the Ichorid's to slow him down and realize i should have waited for a Narcomoeba to trigger and remove that instead. I only draw into more lands and lost horribly.
Round 4: Burn 2-1 (treasure cruise splash).
Game 1: He lands an early Bloom Moon and i have some business with DRS, Veteran Explorer and Courser of Kruphix. He lands a Sulfuric Vortex and i have to blow the board with Pernicous Deed. I was on 1 life and resolve a Thragtusk ftw.
Game 2: He has a nuts hand and burns me down to fast before i can stabilize.
Game 3: I can slow him down with DRS and removing Eidolon from the board, but eventually both board are cleared and i land a Vraska, the Unseen. She ultimates and he has only 2 Lightning Bolts when i attack with my 3 lethal tokens.
Round 5: Mono black discard 2-0
Game 1: We trade resources back and forth while i am able to land the Rampaging Baloth. He answers with a Toxic Deluge and a Maze of Ith. But i have a Volrath's Stronghold and recast it. Next turn i drop a land and i crack a fetch. He couldn't recover.
Game 2: He keeps a one land hand and never got the second and scoops on turn 4.
Round 6: ID and we split the prize
I really like my current list and will stick to Rampaging Baloth and Vraska the Unseen. Vraska doesn't look that great on paper, but everytime it hits the board it puts on so much pressure. Rampaging Baloth and the Two Towers where often not needed, but when i shifted into longgame and got to use them those cards sealed the deal. Having seen the Baloth in action i really feel it puts on more pressure on the board then Primeval Titan does. Also 4 Deathrite Shaman is incredible good. If they stick they do some heavy lifting and if they remove it then it is not a problem since the deck puts on so much pressure that eventually they run out of resources. 3 Sensei's Divining Top feels fine, with 4 i found that i was sometimes flooded with it and with 3 i mostly get on midgame when i start to run out of gas. Courser of Kruphix is criminally underplayed. It is so awesome and really speeds up the game when under a Sensei's Divining Top. I haven't resolved a Sarkhan the Mad in any game and i am didn't feel i wanted in any of the games i played. Still gonna keep him in the board for further testing. No changes for this list.
Just updating y'all with my current list:
4 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Thoughtseize
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
-Matt
How has path been for you matt I suggested it a while back and caught a lot of flack for loosing the ability to swords for life in a pinch in the burn matchup. Im also curious how 8 basics and three utlity lands has been, do you find yourself mulling from mana constraints often.
My thought process was that with 4 Rhino, you want them to be drained on life total, and the basic land doesn't matter since you're Veteran Exploring anyway. It's been very good.
8 basics and three utility has been good. I have no way to tutor them and I really don't want to curve up to Prime-Time. It's never been necessary. But, when I get them, they're nice to have. The mana has always been very good.
-Matt
I like your list Matt, nice and streamlined. Path is definitely and interesting direction to take things, I can definitely see it being unconditional 1cmc removal a lot of the time.
Has 4 Top ever felt like too many copies?
No Teeg maindeck? Is this just a concession to Combo G1?
--
More to all the Junk players / testers out there: Is equipment actually just unnecessary at this point? Siege Rhino is such a beater that it seems like we don't even need to strap anything on our dudes to be able to punch through anymore.
No, I like having 4 Tops because you're a control deck. You ideally want to see one, and you do end up cutting it back in some matchups when sideboarding.
Agreed. I'm conceding to combo a bit game 1, but game 2 is definitely much better. Teegs, Surgical, etc.
You don't really need Equipment especially in Nic Fit - your guys can plow through most blocks very easily, and you have enough removal like Deed to clear away most creatures. I've never had to Deed on 4, except against Armageddon Stax, which statistically isn't a popular matchup.
-Matt
Why are there so many decks in this thread with 61 cards? Is this common in legacy or just in this archetype?
I like your list a lot Matt (except for the 61 cards thingy), although I'm playing Punishing Fit at the moment I might switch to something a little more aggressive. Couple of questions though:
Do you miss the Stoneforge package?
Would you consider a second Rec Nightmare?
Slaughter games in PFit has been doing a lot of work for me, so I was considering playing Memoricide/Cranial extraction on my Abzan SB. Have you tried them?
Thanks
You'll find 61 card lists almost exclusively in decks containing gsz the 61 st card is almost always a land or a tutor target. Maverick nicfit junkblade all see 61 card lists.
Check out the Abzan list I recommended a couple pages ago (minus the Titan, typo, it's not in the deck) 60 cards, and Memoricde/Cranial Extraction in the board.
Yeah. I'm not playing Cranial/Memoricide since Slaughter is just so much better. I like my sideboard as is, even if the Miracles matchup is slightly poorer. Go go gadget Siege Rhino!
I wouldn't play 2 Nightmare. You don't want it all the time, just sometimes.
-Matt
Thanks a lot HoneyT. Is really similar to Matt's. I'll play around with both.
It seems there are some "personal choices", from what I've read from you in the thread (the lack of Tower/Stronghold and the Cranial/memoricide + Lilliana Package in the board). I've been playing with your PFit deck so I'm kind of used to that by now, so I'll start there.
Won a local holiday Legacy event, went 3-0-1 with Punishing Fit. I was certainly lucky that day, both in pairings and in some games.
Round 1: vs. UWR-Blade
G1 I gain advantage over him with plays like Huntmaster which got plowed, Garruk that made a token and ate a bolt, etc. I have multiple creatures, removal, discard and he dies.
G2 was easier postboard, he was relying on Snapping the StP to get rid of my Huntmaster and token, but that got REB'd. Then Clique stripped me of GSZ but died to a Punishing Fire, I draw into Rakdos Charm, exile his graveyard while he has one fetch untapped, and that was just the last nail in the coffin as his hand is DTT and something irrelevant.
2-0
Round 2: vs. UW-Blade
May I have something different this time? G1 he exiles my Veterans, I discard his equipment, the board seems even, then he topdecks Jace and I don't get any answers. Eventually a TNN gets me with a SoFaF. Meh.
G2 we trade resources as usual, I even get to Blast his Jace, and after much ramping I have a SDT on topdeck, 8 lands, get 9th and slam Ruric Thar. Did I mention another TNN on the board? Well, he topdecks a Supreme Verdict, thinks a bit, wipes the board falling to 15, then I use my Volrath's Stronghold on my upkeep, get Ruric again, and in a turn he concedes.
G3 we have little time remaining, he has a Nemesis yet again, searches for equipment which I promptly destroy, but both of my early Golgari Charms get countered. When we're in turns, he gets an Elspeth which sends the fish flying, dropping me to 2. I get some lifegain, destroy Elspeth, and in my last turn I see Huntmaster, Ooze and something else on top. Huntmaster heals me for yet another turn and it seems that I can turn the tables, but the game is a draw.
1-1
Round 3: vs. Goblins
I made what seems a serious misplay in my G1. I had 19 life and my opponent's board was a Matron (found Ringleader) and a Piledriver which attacked for 1. My hand is like Reclamation Sage, Cabal, Garruk Relentless. I chose to get his Ringleader that turn, cast Sage (nothing to destroy) and flashbacked to take a Warchief or something like that. Of course, he topdecks another Ringleader, show a ton of goblins, attacks me for 7, and next turn I die to a Warchief+Krenkko, swarming the board with a horde of hasty tokens. Had I cast Garruk that turn, I could save those precious 7 life points and get a bit more time to dig for answers.
G2 I lead with a blind Therapy, don't remember if it hit, but I saw 2 Earwig Squads which I got next turn with flashbacked Therapy. Then I have a Deed, wipe the board, have Huntmaster flip several times, keeping 2 Decays in hand, and win.
G3 was what I dislike a lot in Magic. I got to play the game and my opponent didn't. Playing first, he had to mull twice due to no-landers, then another mulligan and at least he had lands then. I mulled a hand full of expensive spells into a mix of lands and removal, and the game was like Cavern-pass; next turn a Lackey which got Punished, then he Wastes my Bayou, plays a Vial, I get a Forest off the top, destroy his Cavern with Beast Within, kill it with double PFire, Decay the Vial, kill with a fat Ooze.
2-1
Round 4: vs. Merfolk
Well, this deck plays some counterspells, but I have too much removal for him. G1 he showed a Nemesis for his Silvergill, Wasted something, next turn I Therapy, he Dazes, I find Veteran, discard Nemesis, see other fish. Kill a Mutavault with Deed, Golgari Charm other creatures, then he flooded out and I won with an active Shaman and a lot of cards in hand.
G2 he led with Vial, I took a risk and played Therapy, naming Lord of Atlantis, and hit two of them. His hand is a Lord of the Pearl Trident and a land. I discard the Lord next turn, he topdecks some creatures and lands but it is not enough.
2-0
There were several Painters in the tournament, Miracles, ANT. Miracles could turn into another draw, Painters could win with explosive starts, ANT is almost an autoloss.
MVPs of the evening were my lifegainers: Ooze, Shaman, Huntmaster. Charms and Blasts are amazing when they get to resolve, Ruric Thar is usually a pain to deal with.
I boarded out Sarkhan the Mad almost every game mainly because he shines in slow, grindy matchups or in games with immense creatures like Marit Lage, and I just needed to survive the early game where he is a dead card.
@heat_wave:
Congrats to your finish! Would you mind sharing your current list? And did you feel like the Sage main was something you would play again? 'Cause I never cast it or tutored for it during my 6-round tournament. I'm not sure if we really need it maindeck atm, with all those Deeds, Decays and Pulse.
Greetings!
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