Scapefit decks also run more than 21-22 lands.Originally Posted by Zirath
That is a very compelling argument to me. Given that the Sneak Fit list is very tight, what is most likely cut for an Arbor (Navsi's last list is a good point to work from, it's very close to what I am thinking, few slots differences)?
I'm not trying to fight, I want to be convinced that Arbor is good because I fundamentally agree that 8 accelerates in a combo deck that is land light should be better than 4 (or 12 rather than 8 if you prefer) but the combo lists haven't been able to use them effectively. Essentially, I believe that being able to reach turn 5 asap is more powerful than anything else we can do in a deck that attacks for 15.
I don't know the Sneak Fit lists well enough. I gave them a try a few weeks ago but that's all. What I found was that you generally didn't want to give up a GSZ early because the deck only has so much fuel. It would be much better for that GSZ to get an Empath/Bellower. With that in mind, perhaps the right card isn't a Dryad Arbor but rather another DRS. I did feel like the list didn't accelerate quickly enough.
When it comes to finding a cut, I think it's the Pulse in the flex slot on the idea that if you're a turn faster you're less likely to need the removal.
I'm really not a fan of this card. It's strong, but it doesn't improve matchups we need help with.New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.
@Brael: That's an interesting list/concept. I think I'd swap Oracle > Courser because you want to drop double lands every turn (clues, general ramp).
I didn't test your list...but I can't help but think Mentor doesn't earn enough tokens. You'd have to drop dudes for spells (most likely draw spells). Otherwise you're praying for double SDT to chain.
I like the more efficient body of Courser (bigger body, lower mana cost) and the incremental life gain. Oracle is certainly something worth trying out, but I won't be able to do so for awhile. I'm locked into my current list through January for a league.
You would be surprised at how many spells you can cast with Mentor. Basically, just a single Top is enough. I've had the scenario with a lone Mentor facing a near empty board, removal in my hand, and having to just keep Mentor a 2/2 but I'm already winning those games.
If you have a single Top you're virtually guaranteed 2 Prowess triggers a turn if you're good about bouncing it to your library. Mentor followed by 1 spell (the Top you bounced the turn you're playing it), followed by 2 spells on the next turn is 7 damage and 4 bodies. The turn after, a single spell, (such as a GSZ getting you an Eternal Witness, which gets you another spell) is 9. Even in an anemic situation like that it generates lethal.
Remember that it plays well with Therapy flashbacks too. You can use summoning sick Monks to cast flashbacks to boost the rest and clear the way.
Atraxa's only issue is the lack of First Strike. If she had it, the calculation is free.
Courser's butt is part of the reason he's so good. Bolt resistance matters a lot for our non-perishable creatures.
So that good old Sir Mixalot had a point afterall..?
Very interesting list in my opinion. I have always wanted to have some kind of "I win button" in Junk. And the list seems pretty streamlined.
I'd play this online but the 3 LoTV (->300$) prevent me from doing so; I imagine they are pretty essential, aka not replaceable, to this kind of strategy right?
Just throwing my two cents in on the Dryad Arbor...
I have been playing a Stoneforge build for a few months and running a Dryad Arbor. I don't treat Dryad Arbor as a land but more like an uncounterable creature with flash. I never want to draw it or find it with GSZ it's always something that I'll fetch for EOT if I have Equipment, Garruk the Veil-cursed, or Elspeth Knight Errant. I used to play a Diabolic Intent that I could fetch Arbor for but the Diabolic Intent has been replaced with a 3rd SDT.
I doubt that I would play Arbor in any NicFit variants that didn't either have some way to boost the Arbor P/T or get additional sac benefit (beyond our standard Therapies)
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I think you're missing the most important use of Arbor which is that he's a T1 source of mana acceleration. Arbor greatly expands your range of hands that have access to 3 mana on T2.
I can't boost Arbors P/T in mine, but I still find it to be very useful. Mana is important.
To be fair, making 3 mana on turn two is less important to a Stoneforge list than it is to most other builds, since they have plenty of good two-drops to play instead.
That's why you play a 2 drop and a 1 drop.
You can easily replace her with collective brutality. It might even be better... This is an older list I haven't updated.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Collective Brutality seems mandatory in Reanimator based lists (independently of the back bone).
Of note, Arian and I were playing around with a Sultai Reanimator list before the Dig Through Time ban last year that played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as an enabler as well as maindeck Show and Tell. We haven't explorer it more but I think that Reanimator subshells are one of the design spaces we haven't exhausted. Collective Brutality also adds to this since we didn't have great enablers in the past list other than Jace and Therapy.
Entomb, Reanimate, and castable fatties fit with ease in Nic Fit and mitigates most of its weaknesses. I don't understand why it is not being explored. I mean, I understand why it isn't talked about in this thread but I have seen the idea be dismissed too many times anywhere.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
It pretty much boils down to if you want to go for that plan, there are decks that do it better (so why bother with Nic Fit?).
While you are probably right, can't the same be said for the sneaky build? Honest question, I'm not trolling.
Both the reanimator and the SA build have explosive combos that have creatures that can still be casted normally: don't the big red or S&S decks execute the SA plan better? The question sparks from someone like me who hasn't played the deck yet, but I'm asking honestly because I want to test more comboish versions and I have to decide if I want to go the SA route or the collective brutality - entomb one
That's what I tried really hard not to say. But very likely, yes. Having a full cantrip & counter suite means they execute the same gameplan more consistently under the cover of counter magic and b/c of that also have a better MU vs. other fast combo decks.
I don't know if that's necessarily accurate. Nic Fit combo lists naturally play a lot less filtering and potentially also less combo pieces than a dedicated combo deck like Sneak and Show. Not playing countermagic and having a slower combo are definitely disadvantages.
What the deck does have, though, is a much better backup plan. We run a lot more interaction, with removal spells and discard in relevant quantities in the main deck, and we have an extremely viable backup plan which means we're less likely to brick out and do nothing if we don't have one of our combo pieces, or one gets countered.
Scapeshift has it worse than Sneak, just because it's backup plan is a lot worse. Being a one card combo deck means it can kill people pretty well out of absolutely nowhere, though, so it does have its redeeming features.
Sneak Show (as well as Reanimator) is performing badly due to the abundance of DnT. Cantrips and permission are naturally weak to that mana denial strategy. There's something to be said for having a plan B that isn't identical to plan A that also happens to be very strong against a creature deck.
Pure combo decks don't really compete well right now. I think that based on Miracles and Lands performing as well as they are that Combo Control is much more reliable in this meta.
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