[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Navsi]

My most recent Scapeshift lists have been running two or three copies. The Scape deck is really lacking in instant speed interaction, so having access to anything relevant at all is a big benefit. The deck that cares the least is, of course, Lands, but that matchup is so onesided for Scapeshift that I have pretty much stopped worrying about it.

[Ricardio]

If you wanna beat Miracle all day / every day; just play stax...

The brown list provided in my sig should be a good starting point. It is so one sided that we ended up testing post board for miracle (with me not using the side) and I was still winning by far...
But well this deck also has its own issues.

Not everyone has 2 tabs lying around albeit I do love me some lodestone golem!

[Ralf]

Not everyone has 2 tabs lying around albeit I do love me some lodestone golem!

Ahahahah.

Well, yeah. I'm lucky to have a lot of cards.

Obviously Tabs are not for Miracle so you can get along without them.

Edit: it seems there won't be any Veteran Explorer in EMA... :(

[square_two]

If you wanna beat Miracle all day / every day; just play stax...

The brown list provided in my sig should be a good starting point. It is so one sided that we ended up testing post board for miracle (with me not using the side) and I was still winning by far...
But well this deck also has its own issues.

I mean, to be fair, there was a Green Sylvan Plug list that I saw running full playset of both Tireless Tracker and Smokestack. I tested it for a bit and it has potential to be hilarious. Smokey is great against any list not running many permanents, although it can be a tad slow to get going. If you consider GSZ to be a permanent, then it's usually only removal/therapy that are our non-permanents.

You know, I hadn't thought of trying it in Nic Fit with Vet/Therapy...but it could work well with a lot of already established cards. Vet, Tracker, Meren, Lingering Souls, Gitrog, Ophiomancer (occasionally in Pod lists), Volrath's Stronghold, Thragtusk, Sakura-Tribe Elder all have some small incidental synergy...Garruk Relentless value goes way up as well. Titania could make a better 5-drop top end. Or Deranged Hermit? Wasn't there an abzan midrange list with Monastery Mentor a month or so ago that did well at some event?

I've been screwing around with stax and other stompy lists for a while online, I'll see if I can gather up a possible list later, probably with more impactful 3 drops than normal. Seems like it would gain ground against Miracles, still struggle against Storm/Combo like Nic Fit usually does, and...I'm not sure about how the fair matches would fluctuate. Could also just be a huge dud, with the opponent feeding stax with vet lands and continuing unharmed.

[Tao]

I would love to live in a world where this is true, and I agree that when Nic Fit was capable of being a control deck, that was when we were best. Unfortunately, I firmly believe that we are currently incapable of being a control deck against most of the format. We can generally control Shardless. We can kind of/sort of control Delver. We can kind of/sort of control Painter and some of the other, slower combo decks. Trying to out-control Miracles is a goddamn joke. Trying to control Lands is fundamentally impossible. Eldrazi is a weird toss-up match where who is control vs who is beatdown varies depending on each player's hand. We can't control Aggro Loam. We can't control Burn.

Maybe that means that Nic Fit is just a fundamentally bad deck nowadays. Maybe it means we need to try harder to adapt to the times. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that we cannot exist in a pure control space and reasonably hope to win tournaments.

You live in that world, as proven by the BUG Pod players. I assume that the number of Rhino players is way higher than other versions, and they don't deliver more Top8s.

Burn: White Pod can easily outcontrol Burn. Swords over Path is a giant difference in that matchup, both on turn one to not accelerate them and later as emergency life gain. DRS and SFM help to survive. Then Podding Finks or Rec Sage into Rector into Nightmare plus Tusk simply ends the game. You don't even need to attack them once, they will just scoop. Not that Rhinos are bad in this matchup, though.

Miracles: Trying to outcontrol them is a nightmare? Then what is trying to play beatdown with 4-Mana-creatures against them? Ten times worse than a nightmare. Pod is at least a legitimate threat for them, unlike Rhino. Blue Pod can get Archmage, White Pod can set up Nightmare.

Lands/Loam: I agree, Rhino beatdown version is better against Loam decks.

Eldrazi Stompy: The matchup is weird, I agree. White Pod has Rector into Shadowborn Demon (Shriekmaw) plus Nightmare which is not impossible to set up. And if succesful it breaks the matchup. Blue Pod has Strixes which are great, can tutor for removal and if built right can search Phantasmal Image.

[Nargoron]

Eldrazi Stompy: The matchup is weird, I agree. White Pod has Rector into Shadowborn Demon (Shriekmaw) plus Nightmare which is not impossible to set up. And if succesful it breaks the matchup. Blue Pod has Strixes which are great, can tutor for removal and if built right can search Phantasmal Image.

Just won 2:0 against Eldrazi with white pod with red splash
Blood moon win both game:
g1: sac 2cmc creature to pod -> fetch for recruiter, search rector next turn sac rector get blood moon and search thragtusk and gg
g2: t2 hardcast bloodmoon
after few rounds zenith for sigarda which was gg cose he was waiting only for 7th land to cast all is dust
=)

[TTX]

My most recent Scapeshift lists have been running two or three copies. The Scape deck is really lacking in instant speed interaction, so having access to anything relevant at all is a big benefit. The deck that cares the least is, of course, Lands, but that matchup is so onesided for Scapeshift that I have pretty much stopped worrying about it.

Thanks Navsi and Arianrhod for your help on the deck.
Since it has come up in discussion, I thought I'd post my new Scapeshift list:

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Pithing Needle
1 Dryad Militant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 From the Ashes
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games


The P Needles are to help with the poorer matchups like Lands (Thespian Stage) and Infect (Inkmoth Nexus), while assisting with most other matchups (Death and Taxes, 12 Post, Miracles, Maverick, Charbelcher, etc.).

Storm is my least favorite opponent. For them I have the Dryad Militant, cutting off threshold and Past in Flames, though it really is a non-bo with Surgical Extraction. Those two are just there to hose, even though they don't synergize.

I really like having hand disruption capability off of a Burning Wish, but I'm still unsure of the Cabal Therapy split. 4 Main or 3/1.

Overall I have had success with the deck against the normal metagame of Cockatrice. Miracles, Eldrazi, Shardless, RUG Delver, BUG Delver, Death and Taxes I find to be very straightforward games.
Toss-ups include Grixis Delver, Burn, Show and Tell-based decks, Reanimators, and Glass Cannons like All Spells or Belcher.
Troubling matchups include Storm, Infect, and Lands.

Navsi has mentioned Kolaghan's Command as a potential treatment for Infect. I'd like to point out that Sudden Shock may be better placed. While not as versatile, Sudden Shock deals with other cards like Mother of Runes and DRS without incident.


What do you guys think?

[sdematt]

Have we considered playing Smokestack as our Miraclea hate? Or is the worry that they can use the Monks to get around it? Lands uses it, same with Worm Harvest, to help beat Jace. We could be doing similar stuff.

[Memories of the Time]

Just to be clear, with pod (both junk, bug/bugr) I'm undefeated against miracle, lands and aggro loam. Lands is difficult anyway, of course, but with magus/btb/moon it's better :)
As said by noctalor, if you have the right setup also eldrazi is tied,here strix is awesome but with Rector you can pick moon or moat. Ah, and a single Glissa is a nightmare for them, ophiomancer and so on.

The main problem are combo and post/lands, also burn without sfm is hard. For merit lage you have sower, that's awesome if you can get rid of P. Fire.
Junk have the opportunity to have Gaddock since g1 against combo, and I think it's a possibility I can't deny if I play w

Edit I've also find grixis very positive, can't understand why not. Only problem is angler, but we have our bombs and 4 strix

[Nargoron]

Just to be clear, with pod (both junk, bug/bugr) I'm undefeated against miracle, lands and aggro loam. Lands is difficult anyway, of course, but with magus/btb/moon it's better :)
As said by noctalor, if you have the right setup also eldrazi is tied,here strix is awesome but with Rector you can pick moon or moat. Ah, and a single Glissa is a nightmare for them, ophiomancer and so on.

The main problem are combo and post/lands, also burn without sfm is hard. For merit lage you have sower, that's awesome if you can get rid of P. Fire.
Junk have the opportunity to have Gaddock since g1 against combo, and I think it's a possibility I can't deny if I play w

Edit I've also find grixis very positive, can't understand why not. Only problem is angler, but we have our bombs and 4 strix

Yep, strix is awesome, i wish to strix was BW instead of BU xD its awesome 2cmc card... card advantage, deathtouch... holy crap gimmy BW strix :/

[Arianrhod]

Just a quick stop in to note with amusement that in general, the consensus amongst Eldrazi players is that they're anywhere from favored to heavily favored in the Nic Fit matchup, while our consensus seems to be exactly the reverse. Not really sure where the truth is.

@Tao: I really, honestly don't know what we're (or anyone else) supposed to do about Miracles at this point. A couple of years ago, there were no problems. We had a plan that was functional. We Slaughtered out Jace, then Entreat, and then we won. Easy life, easy game. Now they've got Mentor. Now they've got Nahiri with Emrakul. Now they've got Keranos. Now they've innovated the legendary build with Karakas. We can't attack their wincons effectively anymore. Council's Judgment and Wear//Tear, especially with Snapcaster, means we can't rely on the bigger, harder to cast permanents that aren't supposed to be interacted with anymore. Pod's just going to get eaten by Wear//Tear, same as Choke does. Planeswalkers get exiled by Council's Judgment, or just countered. We can't pressure Nahiri in the face of 8+ one-mana instant speed removal spells backed by 6+ counterspells and 2+ ambush vipers.

I've turned the matchup over and over both in my head and in testing, and I just can't come up with a way to win. I can't understand how Miracles isn't taking down every major tournament in the format. Clearly they're losing to /something/, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is. I'm pretty sure my build from Charlotte's side events can go toe to toe with them (although I never played against any on site), but as noted, it has a large number of other problems, and some of those problems stem directly from the fact that I made specific design choices with Miracles in mind. Being able to beat Miracles vs being able to beat anything else seems to be the choice that you have to make in this format.

I realize you're super high on BUG Pod. I realize people are putting up results with it, and that's great, really. I'm not going to be able to play the deck optimally within three weeks, I'm not going to have the cards to play the deck within three weeks, and I remain skeptical that both BUG Pod is even that well positioned against Miracles and that BUG Pod is proactive enough to be able to beat all of the random garbage that one will have to play against within the first half of Day 1 at a GP. I've run into everything ranging from Koboldstorm to Enchantress to UG Turboland with infinite turns in the first couple rounds of legacy GPs before.

I dunno. I'm very frustrated at the moment, for reasons both inside of and outside of Magic. I'm going to step away from the thread for a couple of days and hope real-life nonsense passes and that I have some kind of epiphany, or else it's looking like Columbus is going to be pretty miserable.

[Bobmans]

Just a quick stop in to note with amusement that in general, the consensus amongst Eldrazi players is that they're anywhere from favored to heavily favored in the Nic Fit matchup, while our consensus seems to be exactly the reverse. Not really sure where the truth is.

I dunno. I'm very frustrated at the moment, for reasons both inside of and outside of Magic. I'm going to step away from the thread for a couple of days and hope real-life nonsense passes and that I have some kind of epiphany, or else it's looking like Columbus is going to be pretty miserable.

The Eldrazi MU is probably about 50/50. Rolls into favor of experience, variance and card choices/tweaks on both ends . While Eldrazi can have very explosive and devistating starts it seems their, like MUD, less consistent. And NicFit performs better when shifting towards mid/longgame due to all the cardadvatage/quality we generate.

As for the discussion in general i support what Tao has been writing for the last couple of pages.
That said, i have put aside NicFit for a little bit and am focussing on Aggro Loam. While the current meta feels right for NicFit i have been dissapointed with the results. It is always fine to just play something else for a while.
I hope you can resolve whatever you got going and get more joy in playing this beautiful archetype.

[square_two]

Have we considered playing Smokestack as our Miraclea hate? Or is the worry that they can use the Monks to get around it? Lands uses it, same with Worm Harvest, to help beat Jace. We could be doing similar stuff.

I don't think Smokestack will cut it on its own. It can certainly be a house on its own, if it lands...but I think it requires support. I recall multiple games against Miracles where I have wiped both boards, or most of theirs, and still do not clearly come out on top. And those are with Trinisphere/Ophiomancer, etc to help keep it fueled or destabilize the opponent. Nic Fit would have better threats than I've tried with Smokestack before, which is a huge plus. Probably more ability to slowly grind away their resources while at the same time having a clock on board. I'm more used to fuller prison-style.

Honestly Chalice of the Void might be better substitute, especially since we are typically already cutting Vets and Therapies against Miracles. Just have to juggle whether or not to run other sweet 1-drops (and I do seriously miss having 1cmc hand disruption in my list).

I'm 5-2 in matches against Miracles on my most recent few iterations with a Chalice/SFM/Rhino deck. Also undefeated against Storm, to the point that I've worked to actually cut slots from my side that I had dedicated to both Storm and Miracles. Using those to invest more against Eldrazi/Delver/Burn. I'm on the fence about taking the list to Columbus though, there are weird mana issues that I can't seem to work out - high number of Mox Diamonds are awesome on turn 1, but incredibly annoying to draw later.

[Brael]

Lots of rambling from me here, and as a bonus after all the replies I have a deck idea two variants BUG and BUGw Pod.

Entomber Exarch is a good card in Pod lists that you can easily underestimate. Most people won't try it because it looks like a Limited card, but a tutorable Duress can be important, and there aren't any other good options. Stats often won't matter, you just want the Burning Wish / Jace / GSZ / Fireblast to be gone. The return from graveyard is a nice alternate mode to help grinding when you draw it. Same with Sin Collector, only a better Duress for less Mana but no value option. I wouldn't go into Restoration Angel territory with Pod, it sounds nice but is too vulnerable and slow. Nath is an awful card.

Sin Collector is an under rated card in my opinion. It doesn't fit in the usual GSZ build, but I really like it in Pod because it's perfect as a tutorable 1 of and as sacrifice fodder. Back when I played Pod in Modern the Sin Collector into Exarch into Restoration Angel sequence was near unbeatable. It takes 3 cards from the opponent and puts 7 power into play over 3 cards. I don't know how it would play in Legacy though, on one hand Legacy is faster and this is a sequence you execute over turns 3-4 and then the following 3. On the other hand, done correctly every iteration delays the opponent a turn so the speed isn't that important, and Legacy has less removal to disrupt the chain. I do agree that Nath isn't what you want, but I was trying to answer the question asked with it.

T3/4 discard on a 2/1 stick seems rather underwhelming when your opponent drops a T1/2 beater. Or plays Elves!. Or TES/ANT. Or a large number of different things. Especially since the opportunity cost was to give up a bunch of cheap interaction to facilitate said stick.

It's way better than that. The opportunity cost these days is that it's in place of Rhino and Tracker. Ironically enough, what pushed it out of play in Modern was that it was usually better to just pod Rhinos than to interact. I'm not so certain that's true in Legacy though because in Legacy every deck needs a healthy amount of 2 out of 3: Counters, Discard, Removal. Nic Fit really skirts the line in having enough discard/removal since we don't have counters, and pod lists go even lower. Adding a discard engine back into the deck really does a lot for your matchups.

Actually the "normal game plan" of Nic Fit has nothing to do with beatdown. The beatdown part is a recent addition and to be honest the rate of Top8s for Rhino lists is quite low compared to the attention the deck had for such a long time now.

The only problem with the control role is that we're slow. Nic Fit makes Miracles look fast. I don't know about others, but I'm usually the last to finish a round with Nic Fit, when I'm controlling it's even slower than that. Forget Miracles, something like Shardless BUG probably won't go past 2 games if you can't hit the opponent hard.

But I think we should just "quit" winning G1 against combo decks with Junk Pod Fit and just attack them with a proper sideboard.

I think we need a reasonable game 1 against some combo, because they rely heavily on winning game 1 and having bad post board games. Conceding the game 1 is playing right into their plan. I'm not sure how to fix that though. I've been experimenting with more discard MB using Tidehollow Scullers and I like them but it has a cost.

You know, I hadn't thought of trying it in Nic Fit with Vet/Therapy...but it could work well with a lot of already established cards. Vet, Tracker, Meren, Lingering Souls, Gitrog, Ophiomancer (occasionally in Pod lists), Volrath's Stronghold, Thragtusk, Sakura-Tribe Elder all have some small incidental synergy...Garruk Relentless value goes way up as well. Titania could make a better 5-drop top end. Or Deranged Hermit? Wasn't there an abzan midrange list with Monastery Mentor a month or so ago that did well at some event?

Mentor might be reasonable in Nic Fit actually. We can hit the top combo as easily as Miracles can, if not easier with SE Fit and we have the mana to use it. This is one of the ideas I've been tossing around to speed up my clock. Mentor plays well with late Therapies too.

Have we considered playing Smokestack as our Miraclea hate? Or is the worry that they can use the Monks to get around it? Lands uses it, same with Worm Harvest, to help beat Jace. We could be doing similar stuff.

Love the idea of Smokestack. I don't think Monks can get around it. Also, love the way it plays with Tireless Tracker which curves right into it. If it slots into a hypothetical Mentor build of Fit all the better since we could feed our own Smokestack with Monks.

--------------------------------

Ok, so now for the decklists. If you remember anything from what I've written it's that I'm usually a fan of cutting a color whenever possible, but I think Pod has a legitimate argument to go 4c because white offers some very good cards as does blue and green/black are required. Perhaps this is really part of a larger discussion if the Vet/Therapy engine is actually where Pod wants to be in the format.

Anyways:

21 Land

Artifact 9
3 Sensei's Divining Tops
3 Pod
1 Voltaic Key
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hangarback Walker

Spells 9
3 Removal
3 Therapy
3 Traverse

Creatures 21
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Hypnotic Siren
4 Baleful Strix
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sin Collector
1 Trinket mage
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Restoration Angel
1 Glen Elendra
1 Ranger of Eos

Then another sticking to BUG, trying to leave in some variant of the discard package I talked about at the start of this post. There's a slightly different philosophy here. Rather than using Pod for versatility I'm using it for consistency.

21 Land

Artifact 9
3 Sensei's Divining Tops
3 Pod
1 Voltaic Key
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hangarback Walker

Spells 9
6 Removal
3 Therapy

Creatures 21
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Eternal Witness
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Meren
2 Glen Elendra

Notice that in both I'm ignoring Deed. I don't think it works well in Pod. Also I'm (probably temporarily) in love with with the idea of Ranger of Eos into a Mind Control plus additional value.

Edit: Maybe I'll think some more over the Mentor/Smokestack build. Something is telling me there's a deck there.

[Brael]

Well, nearly 2 hours of brainstorming and all I've come up with on the Smokestack plan is what about Braids, Cabal Minion instead? Slightly more restrictive casting cost than Smokestack, and it hits slightly less card types but it's a clock and being a creature there's more tutor options, perhaps even podding into it. I think I'm going to have to look through some of my old cube decks for some ideas.

What I'm really looking for is a solid 2 drop to sacrifice, Voice of Resurgence is the obvious guy who can die twice but something else would be needed. Blisterpod and Vet cover the 1's quite well. Perhaps this route is something of a Legacy Aristocrats build rather than a Pod build? We get some great sac outlets in Cabal Therapy, Diabolic Intent and Altar of Bone, it could go back to Recurring Nightmare too possibly (or stick with Meren) and there's even Eladamri's Call.

[TTX]

Strangleroot Geist? 2 drop that dies twice


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[Brael]

Strangleroot Geist? 2 drop that dies twice


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That could be interesting.

22 Land
Usuals + Dryad Arbor

19 Spells
5? sac tutors
4 Therapy
4 Top
6? removal

20 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Blisterpod
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Strangleroot Geist
2 Cartel Aristocrat
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Braids

Sideboard plans could involve Sin Collector+Exarch against combo, Bob+Catacomb Sifter when grinding, maybe a Blood Artist type card, is there anything on the level of Goblin Bombardment in WB?

[Echelon]

If you're running so many creatures that come back/leave a creature when they die/etc. I strongly recommend running 4 Diabolic Intent and some win-con that gets around anything the format does. Maybe include some Culling the Weak and an Ugin? Or assemble Phyrexian Altar + Fecundity + Blood Artist. Or add a bunch of Grafted Wargears and Rancors, send them @your opponents' face turn after turn.

As for the Miracles MU (and any other control deck) - try Manaless Dredge (and specifically the Horde Mode-build). G1 50% of their deck is dead to you, G2 & G3 you hold on for dear life hoping they don't have RiP/Grafdigger's Cage.

[Brael]

If you're running so many creatures that come back/leave a creature when they die/etc. I strongly recommend running 4 Diabolic Intent and some win-con that gets around anything the format does. Maybe include some Culling the Weak and an Ugin? Or assemble Phyrexian Altar + Fecundity + Blood Artist. Or add a bunch of Grafted Wargears and Rancors, send them @your opponents' face turn after turn.

How about dropping white and going with red? Opens up literal Goblin Bombardment, Falkenrath, and only costs Lingering Souls (which I didn't include) and Voice (which is meh).

Alternate idea here, going back to the Mentor/Stax builds, Braids pushes you further to black and DRS is already a black usable card. What about making Black the primary color and going with Bloodghast with Green for vet as the secondary color sticking with white tertiary?

22 land

Creatures 19
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodghast
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Tracker
3 Braids, Cabal Minion

Spells 20
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
6 Decay/Path
4 Top

Does it need some sort of instant sacrifice so the double landfall off of Vet isn't wasted?

[Navsi]

You presumably have at least Phyrexian Tower as an instant speed sacrifice outlet. You can't get the same Bloodghast back twice with it though, because you don't have the lands ETB separately - you get two triggers for each bloodghast, but if the first brings it back then saccing it wont' let the other trigger get it back again, since the Ghast in your bin is a new object now.

Intent looks very good in the deck you posted, but you don't have any powerful cards to search up with it, might be worth including a singleton with more impact than Mentor/Braids for matchups where they aren't as relevant. Then again the two are fine a lot of the time.

Maybe play some hardlock silver bullets in the sideboard? It's not like they would be hard to find in that list with 4 intent 4 top. Things like Contamination and Nether Void.